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drunk mutt posted:Seems like it'd be easier to just destabilize it's orbit and let it fall back into the atmosphere. Just relocating it's orbit could potentially put the satellite out of service, as-in, it no longer meets the original project's specs; however, just relocating it's orbit wouldn't make it so you couldn't find and communicate with it afterwards. And just yeeting it into a highly eccentric orbit doesn't necessarily increase space debris
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Jul 29, 2020 00:11
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cowboy
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:That isn't really how kessler syndrome works at all! Okay? Do tell!
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Jul 29, 2020 00:22
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Zesty posted:Okay? Do tell! Kessler syndrome only effects certain types of orbits, there is no version that spreads in a way that destroys all satellites
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Jul 29, 2020 00:32
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We have that sword missile now, but it's launched from a drone not space. Baby's first rod from God.
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Jul 29, 2020 00:47
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Let's not take the OOCC version as our source and read what actual space agencies have to say about it: https://www.nasa.gov/centers/wstf/site_tour/remote_hypervelocity_test_laboratory/micrometeoroid_and_orbital_debris.htmlNasa posted:The Kessler Syndrome https://web.archive.org/web/20100527195029/http://webpages.charter.net/dkessler/files/KesSym.html The Man himself, Don Kessler posted:The “Kessler Syndrome” was meant to describe the phenomenon that random collisions between objects large enough to catalogue would produce a hazard to spacecraft from small debris that is greater than the natural meteoroid environment. In addition, because the random collision frequency is non-linear with debris accumulation rates, the phenomenon will eventually become the most important long-term source of debris, unless the accumulation rate of larger, non-operational objects (e.g., non-operational payloads and upper stage rocket bodies) in Earth orbit were significantly reduced. Based on past accumulation rates, the 1978 publication predicted that random collision would become an important debris source around the year 2000, with the rate of random collisions increasing rapidly after that, if the accumulation rate were not reduced to near zero. Also, Planetes was a good manga and an okay anime. 
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Jul 29, 2020 01:30
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DrSunshine posted:Let's not take the OOCC version as our source and read what actual space agencies have to say about it: https://www.nasa.gov/centers/wstf/site_tour/remote_hypervelocity_test_laboratory/micrometeoroid_and_orbital_debris.html Yeah, neither of those quotes are implying something that takes out all satellites across all orbits at all.
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Jul 29, 2020 01:54
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Kessler syndrome only effects certain types of orbits, there is no version that spreads in a way that destroys all satellites This is your pedantry? If we get kessler syndrome in low earth orbit, we lose low earth orbit. Pretty loving big deal. edit: AH. 3 pages of rap sheet of being like this. This is your thing. Zesty fucked around with this message at 02:15 on Jul 29, 2020 |
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Jul 29, 2020 02:06
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Zesty posted:This is your pedantry? If we get kessler syndrome in low earth orbit, we lose low earth orbit. Pretty loving big deal. Pedantry is for sure his thing. In reality we are not anywhere near the density in LEO to result in a runaway impact cascade. Now if we let private companies throw up hundreds of thousands of satellites that quickly changes. At least most of those are being built with de-orbit in mind. What we need is a way to de-orbit without making smaller debris. Cause if any real geopolitical strife happens countries are going to start blowing up satellites without much regard to the medium and long term consequences.
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Jul 29, 2020 03:08
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Small pieces of debris de-orbit by themselves fairly quickly in LEO just from air resistance.
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Jul 29, 2020 03:30
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human garbage bag posted:Small pieces of debris de-orbit by themselves fairly quickly in LEO just from air resistance. Still, kessler syndrome in low earth orbit will take around 40 years to clear in this way.
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Jul 29, 2020 03:49
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Couldn't we use AI to target the debris, then superhead them, change orbit and form a ball of sorts large enough to be collected or a non issue? Couldn't we also do a a laser line of sorts in the path of the orbiting debrits and push them away or superheat them and make them less issue?
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Jul 29, 2020 03:57
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Using our Star trek sensors and phasers? The tech isn't there.
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Jul 29, 2020 04:00
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Zesty posted:Using our Star trek sensors and phasers? You'd also have to put a high power laser in a high orbit to ablate the small pieces into the atmosphere. Not many countries are going to be cool with that. As soon as you did it, you would start a space arms race that would lead to much more debris in the long run. I've always wondered if it would be possible to create large amplitude high altitude atmospheric waves to increase the density of the atmosphere in LEO over a certain region. I have no idea how you would do it, but if the density of the atmosphere increases in one part of the orbit over enough passes it could be enough to de-orbit. Another cool approach would be to send up massive areogel nets to absorb impacts of small debris and clear orbital paths of small debris. It's stupid expensive, but interesting. The cheapest way to deal with the issue is just mandate everything sent up has to be able to self remove. Shifting gears, PBS spacetime is doing weekly live streams of different topics with panels of physicists. Not a bad watch. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_izocEgArtQ Heck Yes! Loam! fucked around with this message at 04:27 on Jul 29, 2020 |
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Jul 29, 2020 04:23
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I'm well aware of Mick West. His parallax analysis of gofast is good but nothing regarding Nimitz is at all convincing.
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Jul 29, 2020 07:48
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I wouldn't mind to drive a space tow truck to clear the debris
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Jul 29, 2020 11:06
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Ratios and Tendency posted:I'm well aware of Mick West. His parallax analysis of gofast is good but nothing regarding Nimitz is at all convincing. What's more likely? Aliens?
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Jul 29, 2020 11:13
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Pedantry is for sure his thing. It's not just pedantry, kessler syndrome is a real concept but it's exaggerated in fiction. It's the concept that cascading crashes could cause some orbits to be choked with enough debris that those orbits would not allow satellites to have life spans that are economically useful. In fiction it typically is painted as a process that makes an impenetrable space shield that destroys everything in any orbit forever and prevents any transit. It's similar to the way fiction does EMPs. Where EMPs are real and would be devastating, but are used in fiction as a simple on/off switch for a level of technology. Where they aren't going to worry about line of sight or length of wires needed to act as receivers or even what technologies electrical damage would even apply to. It's just a narrative way to just remove a certain level of technology for a story (or depending on the story, turn it off for a specific amount of time with a set countdown). Fiction uses kessler syndrome, the real thing, to do that with space technology. To just turn off space. Like, kessler syndrome would make the ISS at vastly more risk per day of having an impact, maybe to the point it's unsafe. but it wouldn't like, take out GPS or prevent transit.
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Jul 29, 2020 11:55
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for all that "let's see what actual space agencies have to say" it was funny to see them say the exact same thing as the thread's avian dairy master
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Jul 29, 2020 14:15
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Ratios and Tendency posted:I'm well aware of Mick West. His parallax analysis of gofast is good but nothing regarding Nimitz is at all convincing. Rant incoming. I don't mean this as a point of anger towards you or anyone particular in the thread. I don't hate or even dislike any of you. This isn't personal. I just have to get this poo poo off my chest. This is what happens when society as a whole devalues actual expertise in a field and claims that people who have little training in understanding a phenomenon are in fact the new 'experts.' Even experienced pilots are not experts in radar or IR imaging, and rarely if ever are they experts in the behavior of all aerial phenomenon beyond what they have specifically trained with. Military pilots and radar operators are not trained to scientifically or skeptically analyze the information they receive, they are instead trained to act as if anything they encounter that they are not informed about or that is out of the mission parameters is a potential threat. Add to that plenty of people in military command who are comfortable either simply kicking the can down the road or who are simply incompetent or outright believe in crazy conspiracy theories and distrust experts, plus a dedicated group of the press who attempt to find anything out of the ordinary and present it as evidence for their pet theories. Most who would normally push back on this poo poo has left the military or has been sidelined by these new believers that their own version of reality is more important than the shared one we are all actually forced to live in. And so you get people like Mick West who has no particular expertise but is still able to make very reasonable and convincing arguments that what we're seeing is nothing particularly special, or people like me who has to argue on a dead gay comedy forum about the stuff I spent years studying and why it makes any alien visitation speculation absurd. Thousands of astronomers, amateur and professional, observe large areas of the sky nightly and see nothing. But a few blurry videos and suddenly there are loving aliens. Ok, ok. I think I'm done. Thanks for tolerating me spewing. ashpanash fucked around with this message at 01:57 on Jul 30, 2020 |
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Jul 30, 2020 01:55
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I guess I don’t see why aliens would travel to the Earth and fly around on it for an unspecified period of time when in order to send a probe, they’d almost have to have a great enough level of technological development to observe from a distance and learn everything. Like, what’s the point? It’s been like 80 years of people reporting this poo poo now.
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Jul 30, 2020 02:20
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Antifa Turkeesian posted:I guess I don’t see why aliens would travel to the Earth and fly around on it for an unspecified period of time when in order to send a probe, they’d almost have to have a great enough level of technological development to observe from a distance and learn everything. Like, what’s the point? It’s been like 80 years of people reporting this poo poo now. alien teenagers with space magnifying glasses
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Jul 30, 2020 03:11
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That's why my favorite theory, assuming all these are real alien craft, is von Neumann probes from multiple civilizations. It explains why there is such a wide range of types of craft and behaviors reported. The galaxy is buzzing with these probes and we are constantly getting new ones visiting. There is also the fact that we really can't credibly put any motivations on aliens that may be so different from us we couldn't understand their reasoning.
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Jul 30, 2020 03:36
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So it was a bird???
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Jul 30, 2020 06:57
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Back I the old days when we had bad cameras UFOs were grainy and vague at a hundred meters. Now we have much more advanced optical technology UFOs look grainy and vague at hundreds of nautical miles. Spookily this coincides with the hundred meter UFO pics stopping showing up now everyone has a megapixel camera. UFOs are obviously built out of amazing alien space materials that are inherently distant, grainy and vague - it's the only answer that could possibly make sense.
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Jul 30, 2020 07:34
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toggle posted:So it was a bird??? Birds are alien drones, duh. Pictured: a stage in the self-replication process of extraterrestrial Von Neumann probes 
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Jul 30, 2020 07:44
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SerialKilldeer posted:Birds are alien drones, duh. ftfy
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Jul 30, 2020 09:08
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Antifa Turkeesian posted:I guess I don’t see why aliens would travel to the Earth and fly around on it for an unspecified period of time when in order to send a probe, they’d almost have to have a great enough level of technological development to observe from a distance and learn everything. Like, what’s the point? It’s been like 80 years of people reporting this poo poo now. Since cell phones have become ubiquitous, the number of UFO sightings have gone down but the number of police brutality videos have gone up.
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Jul 30, 2020 09:18
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Zesty posted:Since cell phones have become ubiquitous, the number of UFO sightings have gone down but the number of police brutality videos have gone up. Are violent cops scaring away UFOs? That makes a lot of sense.... 
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Jul 30, 2020 09:19
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Desiderata posted:Back I the old days when we had bad cameras UFOs were grainy and vague at a hundred meters. Now we have much more advanced optical technology UFOs look grainy and vague at hundreds of nautical miles. Spookily this coincides with the hundred meter UFO pics stopping showing up now everyone has a megapixel camera.
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Jul 30, 2020 10:19
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God is always in the gaps between our science experiments, ghosts are always moving quickly in your peripheral vision, and UFOs are always on the horizon, juuuuust out of focus. You can't prove otherwise  Military history is of course a series of humans making all the right decisions, because they are such highly trained and equipped professionals and brilliant and truthful eye witnesses: crippling identification mistakes, malfunctioning equipment, terrible training, poor judgement, and inaccurate and self-serving recollections just don't show up at all in the field of military history... Desiderata fucked around with this message at 11:10 on Jul 30, 2020 |
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Jul 30, 2020 11:03
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Are you trying to tell me the United States Military is incompetent and fascist? Oh you didn't specifically say US? Well, I'm saying it.
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Jul 30, 2020 11:20
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All I'm saying is that the fine crew in the navy (no navy in particular) using all their cutting edge technology and elite training, would never ever mistake a large slow civilian airliner off in the distance with something small fast and close, whether it be what undoubtedly is an alien spaceship pulling impossible Gs, or say for a totally random example, an f14 tomcat which is definitely making an attack run on their ship. It just wouldn't happen... I don't care what the facts are. It's as improbable as a modern highly manoeuvrable warship covered in radars crashing into a large slow object in open water. It just doesn't happen in the modern navy, we have the technology and training don't ya know. Edit: The real conspiracy of course is that every military goof up for the last thousand years was carefully planned and perpetrated by the Illuminati-lizards, to make the militaries of the world look incompetent and mistake prone. All to obscure the veracity of Flight Lieutenants Halfenbacker's genuine encounter with non-terrestrial life in hyper-ships over the pacific, and cunningly pass it off as an otherwise well trained and experienced military officer being temporarily befuddled by reflections from inside his own cockpit and misreading his compass. Such a dastardly plan. In WW2 more battleships and aircraft carriers were reported sunk than were ever built. We need to demand an investigation into all these "extra" terrestrial aircraft carriers and battleships, and why they were prevalent in WW2 but we just don't see them around anymore - else you are insulting the eyesight of are brave flyboys. Desiderata fucked around with this message at 14:13 on Jul 30, 2020 |
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Jul 30, 2020 13:22
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SerialKilldeer posted:Birds are alien drones, duh.  A very good avatar-post combo.
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Jul 30, 2020 14:05
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The whole "now we have awesome cell phone cameras and the videos are still poo poo" argument gets brought up a lot, but cell phone cameras are not made to have the ability to focus correctly on lit objects far away in the sky. They don't have telephoto lenses, the sensors are too small for great low light performance (without long exposures), etc. Seriously, go out tonight and try to take a video of a plane that is clearly a plane when looking at it and then compare your eyesight with the video. Hell, do it during the day. They just aren't designed for it.
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Jul 30, 2020 17:16
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D-Pad posted:The whole "now we have awesome cell phone cameras and the videos are still poo poo" argument gets brought up a lot, but cell phone cameras are not made to have the ability to focus correctly on lit objects far away in the sky. They don't have telephoto lenses, the sensors are too small for great low light performance (without long exposures), etc. Seriously, go out tonight and try to take a video of a plane that is clearly a plane when looking at it and then compare your eyesight with the video. Hell, do it during the day. They just aren't designed for it. That's not quite the point I'm making. The point is that no matter how technology progresses, they remain always just out of focus. Even when the camera is a motion stabilised multi band long range optic - the very best the overblown budget of the worlds largest military can buy. The videos are still poo poo. Arm everyone with a DSLR and the average range of the unknown target will increase but the fuzziness won't. You're making my point in reverse, that I can go out right now and take a bury photo of something obviously human made and claim it unidentified as-long as my sensor isn't up-to the task. They forever exist at the edge of sensor range, by the very nature of being unidentified. Either alien magic makes them always fuzzy and vague and permanently just out of reach no matter what you do... or UFOs can exist and only exist at the edge of your ability to focus, no matter how many or how good the cameras you point at them are, and that there may be a reason for that which has much more to do with the nature of the human mind than with unknowable alien technology.
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Jul 30, 2020 17:55
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D-Pad posted:The whole "now we have awesome cell phone cameras and the videos are still poo poo" argument gets brought up a lot, but cell phone cameras are not made to have the ability to focus correctly on lit objects far away in the sky. They don't have telephoto lenses, the sensors are too small for great low light performance (without long exposures), etc. Seriously, go out tonight and try to take a video of a plane that is clearly a plane when looking at it and then compare your eyesight with the video. Hell, do it during the day. They just aren't designed for it. But shouldn't there be more photos rather than fewer photos? There are more photos and videos of ball lighting today than there were 10 years ago, even if the equipment on phones isn't as good as what's on actual still or video cameras. If something is real but rare, more cameras should produce more instances of it rather than fewer instances of it.
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Jul 30, 2020 17:58
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You’re arguing with a guy whose main source for aliens being here in earth’s atmosphere also wrote a book about past lives and NDEs. And their sole reply to someone pointing out that ‘hey this person is absolutely a quack’ was ‘well they wrote the past lives book AFTER they wrote the UFO book so that means the UFO book is still good!’ You aren’t gonna convince D-Pad.
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Jul 30, 2020 18:16
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Captain Monkey posted:You’re arguing with a guy whose main source for aliens being here in earth’s atmosphere also wrote a book about past lives and NDEs. And their sole reply to someone pointing out that ‘hey this person is absolutely a quack’ was ‘well they wrote the past lives book AFTER they wrote the UFO book so that means the UFO book is still good!’ D-Pad posted:Looks like she wrote that book after I had already read the UFO one so I wasn't aware. The UFO book stands on its own regardless. Important to note my conclusion after reading it was not "aliens!" but that there was something real going on that needed looking into when I had thought it was 100% fake beforehand. The NYT articles confirmed that. Personally, I hope it is aliens, but I am not convinced yet. It's more than a bird though. Sure, put words in my mouth. And as I noted in the earlier post about the book at no point does she claim it is aliens, or anything else. It's just eyewitness accounts and supporting documents. Yes, NDE poo poo is quack, that doesn't invalidate her book or the fact she is reporting for the New York Times who tends to vet their reporters at least somewhat. If she was making claims about what it all was then yes, you should take her quack book into account. She isn't. It's just reports and interviews. D-Pad fucked around with this message at 23:26 on Jul 30, 2020 |
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Jul 30, 2020 23:20
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D-Pad posted:Sure, put words in my mouth. And as I noted in the earlier post about the book at no point does she claim it is aliens, or anything else. It's just eyewitness accounts and supporting documents. Yes, NDE poo poo is quack, that doesn't invalidate her book or the fact she is reporting for the New York Times who tends to vet their reporters at least somewhat. If she was making claims about what it all was then yes, you should take her quack book into account. She isn't. It's just reports and interviews. Oh man, I get wanting to believe in aliens, but that's too far.
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Jul 30, 2020 23:45
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D-Pad posted:The whole "now we have awesome cell phone cameras and the videos are still poo poo" argument gets brought up a lot, but cell phone cameras are not made to have the ability to focus correctly on lit objects far away in the sky. They don't have telephoto lenses, the sensors are too small for great low light performance (without long exposures), etc. Seriously, go out tonight and try to take a video of a plane that is clearly a plane when looking at it and then compare your eyesight with the video. Hell, do it during the day. They just aren't designed for it. Okay what has happened to the price point and availability of cameras capable of capturing this? What has happened to the number and quality of professional grade telescopes worldwide? What has happened to military radar systems in countries around the world? What has happened to the instruments and tools available to pilots and air traffic controllers worldwide? Additionally the quality of personal cell phone cameras may be less than you deem worthy, but the quantity has gone through the roof. Where are the events where thousands of people capture something strange on their phones at the same time? A GIANT PARSNIP fucked around with this message at 03:15 on Jul 31, 2020 |
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Jul 31, 2020 03:12
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