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Ola posted:Storing compressed air is not even close. If you've tried a duster can which you pump up vs one which comes with liquid in it, you know what I mean. The stored energy is tiny vs the huge volume you need, it's entirely dependent on special geographic resources , it's probably not entirely air tight etc. Storing liquefied air gives orders of magnitude more potential energy per unit of stored volume, it's entirely independent of special geographic resources and the act of actually storing liquified air is entirely trivial, it's just an insulated steel tank and it's done all over the world every day, they're even hauled by trucks.
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Jul 30, 2020 22:23
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Ola posted:Yeah there's definitely a lot more to it than just that, it was just for perspective. Then there's the round trip efficiency, so we need even more solar, etc. But it wasn't an infeasible sum to do just that. I wonder what building that many natural gas plants would cost. For another comparison, Tesla's big battery in Australia was $161 million for 193 MWh, $830k per MWh. The Manchester liquid air plant is 250 MWh for $111 million, $444k per MWh. I'll have to check that out, energy storage is one of the biggest problems to be solved, and IMO batteries are not going to be answer (at grid level). But also you have to figure out a lot of these plants have already been built so it's not like they're going to phase them out early and just waste all that money. *edit* A new natural gas plant is still insanely cheap in comparison, $700MM for a 828 MW power plant built in 2013. In other news, I know there is always talk of battery scarcity in this thread, sounds like Ford doesn't think it's an issue. (not an endorsement of Phil LeBeau) https://twitter.com/Lebeaucarnews/status/1288956157290328067?s=20 MomJeans420 fucked around with this message at 23:46 on Jul 30, 2020 |
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Jul 30, 2020 23:34
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MomJeans420 posted:But also you have to figure out a lot of these plants have already been built so it's not like they're going to phase them out early and just waste all that money. This is 'round about where "stop releasing CO2 FFS" comes in.... I'm not trying to pump liquid air purely to beat natural gas on simple market terms, I want there to be an easy next step so we can start killing them off.
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Jul 30, 2020 23:40
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Texas has the best grid other than ercot not allowing net metering anymore. I was using griddy last year with spot pricing and my average kwh cost was like 7.5c . On fall windy days in the morning the prices would frequently go negative.
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Jul 30, 2020 23:42
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Bum the Sad posted:Here in Texas the utility company will blow up my phone on days where it’s 100+ begging me to turn my AC to 78. Are you running it lower and they want you to not use as much electricity?
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Jul 31, 2020 00:44
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Russian Bear posted:Are you running it lower and they want you to not use as much electricity? It's a blanket text to all customers. They do have some creepy rebate program where they can control it though with creep thermostats. gently caress that, it's 72 during the day and 68 at night. I'm not a savage.
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Jul 31, 2020 00:47
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Bum the Sad posted:It's a blanket text to all customers. They do have some creepy rebate program where they can control it though with creep thermostats. gently caress that, it's 72 during the day and 68 at night. I'm not a savage. Rolling coal huh
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Jul 31, 2020 01:28
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Lol I don't ever put my AC lower than 78, but I'm not crazy enough to live in Texas or whatever.
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Jul 31, 2020 01:39
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angryrobots posted:Rolling coal huh Have to offset my soy boy Tesla somehow
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Jul 31, 2020 01:45
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Ola posted:This is 'round about where "stop releasing CO2 FFS" comes in.... I'm not trying to pump liquid air purely to beat natural gas on simple market terms, I want there to be an easy next step so we can start killing them off. I really like your cost estimate exercise, because it really shows that going carbon neutral (for the grid, at least) is an But noooooooo let's make it a political issue.
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Jul 31, 2020 02:02
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I had an idea for an a/c system that would compress 1000lbs of propane when electricity was negative priced and then use that as the a/c refrigerant during the day. Unfortunately this is "insane" and "dangerous".
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Jul 31, 2020 03:56
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Elviscat posted:I really like your cost estimate exercise, because it really shows that going carbon neutral (for the grid, at least) is an It's a much tougher problem than that really. Because covering the duck is one thing, but it assumes average solar/wind production which is only a few hours coverage. The real problem is covering the gap for multiple days when you get bad weather conditions that reduce production. The answers are to massively increase renewable production or massively increase storage or a combination. That is the big problem, as I understand it. I'm not arguing against the liquid air technology, by the way. I've been looking into it recently, and it seems like a great solution with well known standard industrial equipment. The cost supposedly scales way down as you just add more tanks. It also solves the problem mentioned above that you're not dependant on geology (conveniently located caverns or old mines) as it stores the liquid in standard liquid air tanks. It seems like a very clever engineering solution.
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Jul 31, 2020 04:22
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angryrobots posted:For the entire of the daytime? That's not the way most plans are set up. What are their defined peak times? It's buried so it took a while to find again. They've either changed it or I'm looking at a different plan, now it's .43 from 1-7, then .06 the rest of the day (compared to a flat .11 all day on the normal plan). Definitely not what I looked at last year, I know there were three prices not two. This is worth doing some math to look into.
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Jul 31, 2020 04:43
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Beffer posted:It's a much tougher problem than that really. Because covering the duck is one thing, but it assumes average solar/wind production which is only a few hours coverage. The real problem is covering the gap for multiple days when you get bad weather conditions that reduce production. The answers are to massively increase renewable production or massively increase storage or a combination. That is the big problem, as I understand it. Oh yeah, I agree 100%. But baseline power production should be 100% nuclear, with a massive investment in renewables and stored energy covering the rest of the curve, with probably at least a little peaking NG in there so you don't have rolling blackouts if you get a little more peak demand then your system accounts for. You can use nuclear as a peaking plant, it just kinda sucks as one because they take awhile to start up, and they're an energy consumer when shut down. Small nukes, that a lot of people seem interested in these days, are better at this. In th US there's going to be a massive need for artificial (desalinated seawater) fresh water supplies to agricultural areas in the next few decades, Inwonder if a massive water project could be integrated with a massive pumped-hydro energy storage project, pump a few million gallons of freshwater up the Sierra Nevadas during low demand periods, allow it to outfall to the farms around the Salton Sea via turbines in the evening.
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Jul 31, 2020 05:04
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Nuclear for power and desalination. Ramp up desalination when power demand is lower. Can use nuclear for district heating too, AFAIK China has plans in motion for that, and the Finns are considering it for Helsinki.
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Jul 31, 2020 07:38
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Beffer posted:It's a much tougher problem than that really. Because covering the duck is one thing, but it assumes average solar/wind production which is only a few hours coverage. The real problem is covering the gap for multiple days when you get bad weather conditions that reduce production. The answers are to massively increase renewable production or massively increase storage or a combination. That is the big problem, as I understand it. That is just a question of scale and not a threshold of technology or relying hopefully on some future invention or similar. Solar is one thing, it's nice and simple. But there are many other renewables. Depends what's the most abundant where you live. Most of the world's population lives on coasts, ocean wind is growing more and more. Here in Norway we are hoping to become experts on floating wind. I attended a talk where a coder explained some of their tech, he is employed by the oil company Eqiunor by the way. A floating wind mill is a log sitting upright in the water with the wind pushing at the top. It has a radar looking into the wind, reflecting off ocean spray particles, so it can predict gusts and adjust the blade pitch before they hit it and stay balanced that way. It's obviously anchored as well, heavy at the bottom etc. But it's a mix of new creativity and engineering experience from the offshore oil business. Elviscat posted:
Maybe it's better to just stop doing this. Don't farm tropical fruit in the desert. It will be better to farm them where there's proper conditions and then ship them sustainably. If they don't want to, well it's their own problem, not a global or systemic one. People want green golf courses and picture perfect lawns in the desert too, that isn't an important problem for humanity. I wish some movie celeb would lead forward and make a beautiful desert garden instead of a temperate one on constant life support. Elviscat posted:I really like your cost estimate exercise, because it really shows that going carbon neutral (for the grid, at least) is an Yeah, it's definitely solvable. It's not like it's orders of magnitude out. Once enough money gets behind the green stuff, it will get the political push that fossil fuels are currently floating on.
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Jul 31, 2020 08:26
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Shamino posted:I had an idea for an a/c system that would compress 1000lbs of propane when electricity was negative priced and then use that as the a/c refrigerant during the day. Unfortunately this is "insane" and "dangerous". You could use CO2, which would require way higher pressure but remove the fire risk. Ola posted:Maybe it's better to just stop doing this. Don't farm tropical fruit in the desert. It will be better to farm them where there's proper conditions and then ship them sustainably. If they don't want to, well it's their own problem, not a global or systemic one. People want green golf courses and picture perfect lawns in the desert too, that isn't an important problem for humanity. I wish some movie celeb would lead forward and make a beautiful desert garden instead of a temperate one on constant life support. As I understand, that's the big down side to the "buy locally grown produce" movement. Ideally it should apply only to those crops that can easily grow naturally in one's local climate, but most people don't know enough about agriculture to have any clue which ones those are.
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Jul 31, 2020 13:05
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Godholio posted:It's buried so it took a while to find again. They've either changed it or I'm looking at a different plan, now it's .43 from 1-7, then .06 the rest of the day (compared to a flat .11 all day on the normal plan). Definitely not what I looked at last year, I know there were three prices not two. This is worth doing some math to look into. I find those prices horrible, either the daytime .43 is way overpriced or the flat .11 is underpriced. Or they are using such an expensive peaker plants they should have invested heavily to storage. For my local power company ToU pricing is 7.69c/kWh between 7-22 and 6.44 between 22-7. Although those prices are without the transport of electricity, that is priced separately. Personally I use spot pricing based on Nord Pool electricity exchange that changes hour. My assumption is that the power company needs to put least amount of price buffer because of the reduced risk.
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Jul 31, 2020 15:24
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Update on my Tesla solar order: It's been 5 weeks since they put in my order and they list the permitting process as 1-5 weeks. I called because they hadn't made any status updates on the website. They haven't even applied for the permit yet, lol. They blamed the hold up because they were waiting on a document from me for county permitting. I forwarded them the document which I had sent within 3 hours of them emailing. I had called the next day to confirm they had it; not sure how they went from yes, we have it to having no clue where the document was.
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Jul 31, 2020 16:59
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Bum the Sad posted:It's a blanket text to all customers. They do have some creepy rebate program where they can control it though with creep thermostats. gently caress that, it's 72 during the day and 68 at night. I'm not a savage. When I lived in Houston, I think we had it that low due to it being a soupy mess outside in the summer. I now live in one of the hottest (dry heat) places in the country and we never have our house under 78. Maybe i'm broken now from living in southern Arizona, but anything under 78 and I get chilly.
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Jul 31, 2020 17:56
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I thought Tesla solar panels were vaporware.
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Jul 31, 2020 18:45
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MrOnBicycle posted:I thought Tesla solar panels were vaporware. You're thinking of the solar roof. Tesla (Musk) bought his cousin's solar panel company a few years ago at an inflated value to help him out.
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Jul 31, 2020 18:57
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Ola posted:
Farming and food supplies are a really complicated issue, too much for me to dive in from an armchair perspective, I do know, that in our utter madness we've concentrated large amounts of people in areas completely unsuited to sustaining human life (from the Sierra Navadas East to New Mexico especially for the US) without massive feats of engineering. We should, of course also pursue sustainability from every angle, just as we should pursue energy efficiency along with powering the grid from renewable sources. I did some math last night, and estimated that providing the US with 100% non-fossil-fuel electricity would cost about $20trillion, just for installed capacity, that doesn't take in to account storage needs to account for the duck curve, and that's using Vogtle 3&4's massively over budget cost per MWh. Not as cheap as I stated earlier, but certainly doable.
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Jul 31, 2020 19:24
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MrLogan posted:You're thinking of the solar roof. Tesla (Musk) bought his cousin's solar panel company a few years ago at an inflated value to help him out. Ah yes, that's it.
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Jul 31, 2020 21:22
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MrLogan posted:They blamed the hold up because they were waiting on a document from me for county permitting. I forwarded them the document which I had sent within 3 hours of them emailing. I had called the next day to confirm they had it; not sure how they went from yes, we have it to having no clue where the document was. Surely you've seen people try to coordinate buying a Tesla or getting it delivered in this very thread. Elviscat posted:I did some math last night, and estimated that providing the US with 100% non-fossil-fuel electricity would cost about $20trillion, just for installed capacity, that doesn't take in to account storage needs to account for the duck curve, and that's using Vogtle 3&4's massively over budget cost per MWh. A lot of that can come down, the AP1000 design wasn't 100% complete when they started building Vogtle, and getting the first new nuke permits in decades from FERC didn't help anything either. I'm a huge fan of nuclear but it's probably politically impossible to get it cheap enough to be competitive in the US. Somewhere like China is a different story. MomJeans420 fucked around with this message at 23:26 on Jul 31, 2020 |
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Jul 31, 2020 23:24
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MomJeans420 posted:
Yeah, I used it because it's about as conservative an estimate as I could find. The AP1000 is such a good design for a PWR too, it'd be really nice to see it replace all the old reactor designs that have lovely passive cooling features, and poo poo like ice-condenser containment which is such an lol concept. There's a ton of really cool molten salt and thorium breeder reactor designs out there too, that could be way, way cheaper to build (because they don't need large containment buildings) and cheaper and more ecologically friendly to fuel (enriching uranium sucks). It's mostly a sad dream, since NIMBYism has defeated the glorious atom. I can see over a dozen nuclear reactors from my deck where I'm typing this, there's another dozen or so just up the road, but the only power-generating reactor in my state is a sad, old GE BWR, that nevertheless produces 10% of the State's power. It sucks and I hate it.
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Aug 1, 2020 00:05
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MomJeans420 posted:Surely you've seen people try to coordinate buying a Tesla or getting it delivered in this very thread. Yeah, my Model 3 is awesome, but this company is hilariously inept at customer service. My experience buying it was pretty bad, but I got through it mostly thanks to a competent sales advisor who went the extra mile to get it done for me. I was also fortunate to not have any QC issues with the vehicle itself. When tesla sent me a satisfaction survey, I cracked my knuckles and laid it on them pretty hard (while still praising my sales advisor and team for their efforts combating the stupid system that screwed up more than once during the process).
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Aug 1, 2020 00:10
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Y'all, GM is finally spending money on building out a charging network. They're helping EVGo build 2,700 more fast chargers across the US. https://arstechnica.com/cars/2020/07/gm-teams-up-with-evgo-to-deploy-more-than-2700-new-dc-fast-chargers/ Legitimately shocked to see GM reverse their position on investing in charging networks. Westy543 fucked around with this message at 05:34 on Aug 1, 2020 |
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Aug 1, 2020 05:32
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Yes, but I didn't think it would be this bad. Thought they'd have the process pretty automated at this point as a technology company. I can't imagine having to deal with all this if I had a car issue.
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Aug 1, 2020 14:04
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MrLogan posted:Yes, but I didn't think it would be this bad. Thought they'd have the process pretty automated at this point as a technology company. They're not a technology company, they're just valued like one.
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Aug 1, 2020 15:06
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Westy543 posted:Y'all, GM is finally spending money on building out a charging network. They're helping EVGo build 2,700 more fast chargers across the US. https://arstechnica.com/cars/2020/07/gm-teams-up-with-evgo-to-deploy-more-than-2700-new-dc-fast-chargers/ I'm happy to see this, but I hope they start putting more chargers per location. The EVGo's around me have one or two chargers per site. Not sure if it's different elsewhere. MrLogan posted:Yes, but I didn't think it would be this bad. Thought they'd have the process pretty automated at this point as a technology company. It'd be cool if they partnered with a similar volume car company and let someone more established teach them how to do it. Mitsubishi sold fewer cars in the US in 2019 than Tesla (121k vs 195k). It looks like from a quick google there are a similar number of US Mitsubishi dealers and US Tesla Service locations. Seems like a win win if every Mitsubishi dealer could do Tesla service. More service revenue for Mitsubishi, more service capacity for Tesla. Of course, it'd be even better if they just invested in QA to eliminate some of the need for service in the first place. I just took a look at Mitsubishi's website and I had no idea the Outlander PHEV had DC fast charging. Seems pretty excessive for a car with only 22 miles of EV range. 
Wayne Knight fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Aug 1, 2020 |
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Aug 1, 2020 19:43
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Elviscat posted:The AP1000 is such a good design for a PWR too, it'd be really nice to see it replace all the old reactor designs that have lovely passive cooling features, and poo poo like ice-condenser containment which is such an lol concept. I'm not on the engineering side but I work with people who are, and they were impressed with the AP1000's passive safety systems. One of those things that seem really obvious now, but weren't done before for one reason or another. Indiana_Krom posted:Yeah, my Model 3 is awesome, but this company is hilariously inept at customer service. My experience buying it was pretty bad, but I got through it mostly thanks to a competent sales advisor who went the extra mile to get it done for me. I was also fortunate to not have any QC issues with the vehicle itself. It may depend on where you live. Just from my friends that own Teslas, it seems it's easier if you live near Silicon Valley or LA.
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Aug 1, 2020 19:59
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The article said they're doing > 4 per location
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Aug 1, 2020 20:02
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gwrtheyrn posted:The article said they're doing > 4 per location 🤦 Skimmed right past that.
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Aug 1, 2020 20:06
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MomJeans420 posted:It may depend on where you live. Just from my friends that own Teslas, it seems it's easier if you live near Silicon Valley or LA. I picked mine up in Chicago (I live in southern Wisconsin). One thing I was mildly disappointed about was when I got there to pick it up, they were just finishing up washing and drying it and only then plugged it in. I had a 104 mile trip home to make in a model 3 performance and it had 40% charge... Needless to say I don't have range anxiety, but it was kind of a good thing I was goofing around with the controls/settings/syncing my phone up/eating a snack, and all that for about an hour before I was ready to head out. Thanks to the extra time on their L2 charger I got home with 17% instead of the initial estimates of barely 5%. And it was doubly good because when I got home and did the first big test of the charging setup, it turns out the circuit breaker we had was defective and kept tripping, I ended up level 1 charging off a 5-20 circuit for a couple days till I could get the replacement breaker in.
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Aug 1, 2020 22:15
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DC Fast Charging for free at my local energy company.
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Aug 1, 2020 22:26
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Last week we took the neighbors wife for a ride in my P3D, she got out and told her husband "I think we need a new car.". He complained we were sturring up trouble. So today we took him for a ride and he got out and said "I think I'm ready to trade in the Mercedes...".
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Aug 2, 2020 00:43
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I dunno how to link it (The Fast Lane Car update on YouTube) but an ID4 has been spotted at an EA charger in Arizona.
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Aug 2, 2020 01:29
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Nfcknblvbl posted:DC Fast Charging for free at my local energy company. if i were a rich person with a deathwish i'd totally buy one of those egos to tool around on
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Aug 2, 2020 01:44
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As a rider, I'm not super enamored of EV motorcycles. The problem is that most motorcycles already have insane power to weight and the acceleration problems mostly have to do with keeping the front end down. An EVs torque benefit therefore isn't that great and the added weight of the battery and motors can make it less nimble and therefore overall slower in corners. So as I posted in cycle asylum, the more I think about it; the more I think that motorcycle EVs make the most sense from a cruiser/tourer perspective more than from a sportbike perspective. The heavy weight of cruisers/tourers wouldn't necessarily increase (and could decrease) with the right battery and motor choice and the extra torque would be great for moving along a big cruiser or Goldwing. Maybe cruisers wouldn't work given that even getting the cruiser guys to accept liquid cooling was challenging. But an EV Goldwing could be well received depending on range and refueling. I hope the Harley Davidson Livewire succeeds but at $29,799 it's a tough sell. it really needed to be cheaper than HD's top of range motorcycles.
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