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I get wanting to work for a "good" employer, but as was said I feel like ethics / goodness are just inherently incompatible with capitalism. At the end of the day someone somewhere is getting shafted, that's just how it works. My last employer was a nonprofit medical company, and sure I felt better about that than when I worked for a loving bank, but I think you could still say it's unethical that in the 5 years I was there the CTO went from a 911 to a BMW i8, to a M5 CS-- in addition to the X5 and SLK he also had. Meanwhile I was underpaid even for my region, AND I was making more than 2 of the 3 other programmers who each had 5+ years of experience on me. The 1 who was making more than I had a nearly identical resume and was hired at the same time I did but presumably simply asked for more (and it was like less than a $1K difference)
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Jul 31, 2020 14:46
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Sab669 posted:I get wanting to work for a "good" employer, but as was said I feel like ethics / goodness are just inherently incompatible with capitalism. At the end of the day someone somewhere is getting shafted, that's just how it works. That's all fine and I totally get it but there's a difference between throwing up your hands because the system is hopelessly broken and at least trying to be particular with who gets the value of your labor.
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Jul 31, 2020 14:55
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Sure, no one is saying "Well just stop working, become a hardcore Buddhist and move to Africa" But expecting any billion dollar megacorp to be some big happy ethical entity is just setting yourself up for disappointment.
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Jul 31, 2020 15:07
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Sab669 posted:Sure, no one is saying "Well just stop working, become a hardcore Buddhist and move to Africa" There are levels of this, it’s not binary. There’s a special level of hell reserved for Twitter employees, and a far deeper one for Facebook employees.
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Jul 31, 2020 15:18
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Sab669 posted:I get wanting to work for a "good" employer, but as was said I feel like ethics / goodness are just inherently incompatible with capitalism. At the end of the day someone somewhere is getting shafted, that's just how it works. I've said before, to me that's my impostor syndrome. I hate doing reviews and seeing how little ICs are making compared to their YOE because they're poor negotiators. Or someone with the same YOE as myself but stayed in the IC track making 60% of what I'm making. And of course as just a middle manager I can't really change anything, I'm given a budget and work within it. That said while not good ethics, at least my direct employer isn't evil. We make games, we make cardboard, we put cardboard in boxes and on store shelves. No slave labor, no political shenanigans, not even any billionares.
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Jul 31, 2020 15:22
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Blinkz0rz posted:
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Jul 31, 2020 15:26
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if you don't care about how your employer affects the world, that's on you. If being criticized for it makes you bristle, maybe think about why rather than being defensive.
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ketchup vs catsup posted:There are levels of this, it’s not binary. There’s a special level of hell reserved for Twitter employees, and a far deeper one for Facebook employees. Sure, it's definitely up to the individual to define where they draw the line. My point is just that I don't think it requires much digging at all to find bad news
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Jul 31, 2020 15:37
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Jose Valasquez posted:The idea that anyone who makes different ethical judgments than you about where to work doesn't care is incredibly self-righteous. I personally wouldn't work at Facebook, but I don't think everyone who works there "doesn't care about how their employer affects the world." There is no ethical defense of the extremism Facebook actively shelters and creates on their platform. Everyone who works at Facebook makes the choice each day to continue working to build a platform that a) condones and promotes white supremacy, b) allowed the coalescence of a genocide, and c) uses company money to throw parties for Brett kavanaugh. They do it because Facebook pays more than other companies. Tech workers more than most have choices about where they work - when they choose to work for companies that do/promote/allow/support bad things, that is a perfectly valid signal of their character.
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Jul 31, 2020 15:58
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And yes, actively choosing to work at Facebook is actually awful.
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Jul 31, 2020 16:00
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I had a first round interview, via a referral, a few days ago where I got the recruiter to mention salary first which was lower than what I make now. For context, I studied mechanical engineering in undergrad, career switched to software and have been developing websites for the last few years. This company, for this role, needs someone with exactly my skill set. They've tried hiring mechanical engineers, saying they'd teach them software and vice versa with no luck of finding anyone sufficiently qualified. Since I career switched to software, I've accepted that I'll be lagging in terms of salary behind others who started right after college and had a CS degree. However, now that I'm switching into a role where my undergrad degree and 2 years of full time internships apply, I'd like to believe I'm worth more given that. How do you guys think I should proceed?
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Jul 31, 2020 16:05
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Tell them it's a sticking point and see how they respond.
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Jul 31, 2020 16:06
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Blinkz0rz posted:Try not to be defensive. Some people care about the effects their work and the company they work for have on the world. I enjoy that your mind went to them being defensive, rather than loling at MS suddenly being good.
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Jul 31, 2020 16:30
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Xarn posted:I enjoy that your mind went to them being defensive, rather than loling at MS suddenly being good. Nah, I just couldn't think of awful MS stuff off the top of my head.
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Jul 31, 2020 16:33
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Someone can work at Facebook because they think they can do more good by pushing the company to be better from the inside than the outside. I think they are wrong, I think Facebook is a lost cause in that regard and Zuckerberg continues to make that clearer and clearer, but I think someone could reasonably think that without being a mustache twirling villain.
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Jul 31, 2020 17:27
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I just settle for places that are in boring neutral territory, where maybe they sell to a couple terrible customers among many, but they aren't otherwise actively terrible themselves. Given that the whole point of tech is automating people out of jobs, that's about the best I can hope for.
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Jul 31, 2020 17:28
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Hadlock posted:No, I'm just trying to wrap my head around the concept that someday Microsoft would make the short list for companies that are not "morally abhorrent" I mean sure FB enabled genocide but did you know that Microsoft once released a bad Windows? Think of the Products! What crime is worse than angering slashdot users?
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Jul 31, 2020 17:31
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Hughlander posted:I'm just going to leave this here... https://onezero.medium.com/a-year-after-an-hr-crisis-microsoft-backs-away-from-releasing-a-transparency-report-c724ce636349 Getting someone awesome early on in their education is great. Definitely extend the offer to come back in their next term and make it clear that there is a place for them after graduation. Keep the lines of communication open, don't expect them to remember who you are 2 years down the road. huhu posted:I had a first round interview, via a referral, a few days ago where I got the recruiter to mention salary first which was lower than what I make now. If they want qualified software developers with domain knowledge, especially specific domain knowledge from a real engineering discipline, the excuse of "well you don't have a CS degree" is a flimsy one. I'd say make a counteroffer for at least parity or an increase you feel is fair, depending on your situation. Ensign Expendable fucked around with this message at 17:47 on Jul 31, 2020 |
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Jul 31, 2020 17:38
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Jose Valasquez posted:Someone can work at Facebook because they think they can do more good by pushing the company to be better from the inside than the outside. I think they are wrong, I think Facebook is a lost cause in that regard and Zuckerberg continues to make that clearer and clearer, but I think someone could reasonably think that without being a mustache twirling villain. The problem at Facebook is that Peter Thiel is on their board, and he's just committed to being the worst billionaire in Silicon Valley. If he were gone, the company would have a lot more room to try to fix some of these things.
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Jul 31, 2020 17:43
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Jose Valasquez posted:Someone can work at Facebook because they think they can do more good by pushing the company to be better from the inside than the outside. I think they are wrong, I think Facebook is a lost cause in that regard and Zuckerberg continues to make that clearer and clearer, but I think someone could reasonably think that without being a mustache twirling villain. A really large chunk of the ICs at Facebook in Menlo Park are foreign nationals. The friction of switching companies is really high when you're on an H1B or w/e. And also I'd guess they don't care as much about American democracy as an American would.
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Jul 31, 2020 17:44
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Jose Valasquez posted:Someone can work at Facebook because they think they can do more good by pushing the company to be better from the inside than the outside There is zero evidence that this belief is correct and internal leaks reveal that the people who believe this stick around anyway.
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Jul 31, 2020 17:58
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ketchup vs catsup posted:There is zero evidence that this belief is correct and internal leaks reveal that the people who believe this stick around anyway. Of course the people who believe it stick around anyway, that's the point 
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Jul 31, 2020 18:00
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ketchup vs catsup posted:There is zero evidence that this belief is correct and internal leaks reveal that the people who believe this stick around anyway. Cognitive dissonance: quote:In the field of psychology, cognitive dissonance occurs when a person holds two or more contradictory beliefs, ideas, or values; or participates in an action that goes against one of these three, and experiences psychological stress because of that. According to this theory, when two actions or ideas are not psychologically consistent with each other, people do all in their power to change them until they become consistent.[1] The discomfort is triggered by the person's belief clashing with new information perceived, wherein they try to find a way to resolve the contradiction to reduce their discomfort.
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Jul 31, 2020 18:02
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Poor wording on my part - I meant that the disillusioned stay there for the money, and keep doing the bad stuff.
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Jul 31, 2020 18:05
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Jose Valasquez posted:Someone can work at Facebook because they think they can do more good by pushing the company to be better from the inside than the outside. I think they are wrong, I think Facebook is a lost cause in that regard and Zuckerberg continues to make that clearer and clearer, but I think someone could reasonably think that without being a mustache twirling villain. what the heck can a keyboard smasher do lol this would have to come from the highest of high levels to even have a chance to happen (and even then you'd be brought down by The Investors; refer to my previous post)
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Jul 31, 2020 18:11
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ketchup vs catsup posted:Poor wording on my part - I meant that the disillusioned stay there for the money, and keep doing the bad stuff. Oh, yeah, by no means am I saying that every employee at Facebook is making an ethical decision to work there, just that some percentage actually believe they are making things better by doing so.
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Jul 31, 2020 18:12
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Progressive JPEG posted:I mean sure FB enabled genocide but did you know that Microsoft once released a bad Windows? Think of the Products! What crime is worse than angering slashdot users? If we forget about all the products that they killed, businesses they forced to go under and general anti-competitive behaviour for which they only got a slap on the wrist, they yes, all Microsoft did was release a bad Windows and anger slashdot users.
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Jul 31, 2020 21:05
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What's the statute of limitations on those things? Yes, they were bad, but a lot of that was literal decades ago under a completely different management team. Are they stained forever because of what Bill Gates did?
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Jul 31, 2020 22:29
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Volguus posted:If we forget about all the products that they killed, businesses they forced to go under and general anti-competitive behaviour for which they only got a slap on the wrist, they yes, all Microsoft did was release a bad Windows and anger slashdot users. I'm absolutely stunned that you'd compare fairly rote business behavior to Facebook enabling genocide Like, come on, it's not even the same league
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Jul 31, 2020 22:43
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Dunno how to say this without sounding like a facebook apologist. Society going off the rails due to wildly popular social media was going to happen to whatever company got to critical mass first. If Facebook hadn't stooped the lowest to build marketshare fastest, then bookface or spacemy or whatever would have succeeded using the same tools. It's probably going to take us 50+ years to figure out how to add in correct checks and balances to not let social media burn down society and/or be hijacked by state actors for political purposes. It took us the better part of 5000 years to come up with a form of governance that didn't involve beating people with sticks until you were in charge. Social media is going to take a while to sort out.The butlerian jihad is sounding better and better by the day. This has suddenly turned in to a weird social justice warrior thread. Microsoft is a bad company, facebook is probably indirectly responsible for at least one genocide. Both are net negatives to society, probably weighted unequally Cheers Xarn posted:I enjoy that your mind went to them being defensive, rather than loling at MS suddenly being good. Indeed
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Jul 31, 2020 22:57
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Hadlock posted:Dunno how to say this without sounding like a facebook apologist. Society going off the rails due to wildly popular social media was going to happen to whatever company got to critical mass first. If Facebook hadn't stooped the lowest to build marketshare fastest, then bookface or spacemy or whatever would have succeeded using the same tools. It's probably going to take us 50+ years to figure out how to add in correct checks and balances to not let social media burn down society and/or be hijacked by state actors for political purposes. It took us the better part of 5000 years to come up with a form of governance that didn't involve beating people with sticks until you were in charge. Social media is going to take a while to sort out.The butlerian jihad is sounding better and better by the day. Big fat solid gently caress off with this "it would have happened anyways" and "social justice warrior" poo poo. I asked about non-terrible companies that pay well. I don't need some kind of wishy washy crap about how the market makes villains.
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Aug 1, 2020 00:12
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edit: nah
No Pants fucked around with this message at 10:30 on Aug 5, 2020 |
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Aug 1, 2020 02:19
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Blinkz0rz posted:Big fat solid gently caress off with this "it would have happened anyways" and "social justice warrior" poo poo. Good luck getting hired at a warm fuzzy socially responsible company with that attitude
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Aug 1, 2020 02:23
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ultrafilter posted:What's the statute of limitations on those things? Yes, they were bad, but a lot of that was literal decades ago under a completely different management team. Are they stained forever because of what Bill Gates did? The statute of limitations on those things is for the rest of my life. It doesn't matter how many billions Gates gives to charities, how cozy they are now with Linux, I do not care even if they throw away windows entirely and make & market their own linux distribution, what they did will forever stain them from my perspective. Balmer called Linux and OSS a cancer less than 20 years ago and that will not be forgotten or forgiven. But that's just me.
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Aug 1, 2020 03:00
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Poe's law is in full effect right now
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Aug 1, 2020 03:03
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Achmed Jones posted:Poe's law is in full effect right now That is a certainty, i cannot and won't deny it. Blinkz0rz posted:I'm absolutely stunned that you'd compare fairly rote business behavior to Facebook enabling genocide So you're saying Facebook is worse? Sure, I totally buy that. One doesn't get to be this big and to keep being this big without abhorrent practices (from any perspective). But you said: Blinkz0rz posted:I asked about non-terrible companies that pay well. I don't need some kind of wishy washy crap about how the market makes villains. All I can say is "good luck finding one". Maybe they exist, I am not aware of any, but who knows, there probably are some out there.
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Aug 1, 2020 03:59
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Volguus posted:The statute of limitations on those things is for the rest of my life. It doesn't matter how many billions Gates gives to charities, how cozy they are now with Linux, I do not care even if they throw away windows entirely and make & market their own linux distribution, what they did will forever stain them from my perspective. Balmer called Linux and OSS a cancer less than 20 years ago and that will not be forgotten or forgiven. I think there is a clear hierarchy of badness between companies complicit in genocide and companies being mean to nerds. As lovely of a company as 90s MS was, their capacity for having a negative effect on the world was quite limited compared to what tech companies can do today. "There is no ethical consumption under capitalism" is not an excuse to just throw up your hands and declare everyone equal.
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Aug 1, 2020 04:00
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Balmer hating on Linux is a fart in the wind compared to what’s happening today. It was a fart in the wind even then.
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Aug 1, 2020 04:03
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Plorkyeran posted:I think there is a clear hierarchy of badness between companies complicit in genocide and companies being mean to nerds. As lovely of a company as 90s MS was, their capacity for having a negative effect on the world was quite limited compared to what tech companies can do today. Oh, I wasn't aware that we're supposed to rank them on their shittyness. Microsoft's capacity of having a negative effect on the world was immense back then, the difference being that the "world" was a lot smaller. The "nerds" as lifg called them. I suppose it's a matter on where one does draw the line. "They all suck" is a valid statement in my opinion, and declaring everyone equal is just an effect of where do they sit in respect to the line that has just been drawn.
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Aug 1, 2020 04:41
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microsoft is the frontrunner for whatever dumb poo poo the us militarys gonna do next, thats prolly a better current criticism than ballmer being a dipshit
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Aug 1, 2020 04:46
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Ultimately the criticism here is that any of the big tech companies, if given the opportunity to do something awful in the name of profit, will do the awful thing. The fact that some have been less awful than others speaks more to an uneven distribution of opportunities to be awful, moreso than it does to the companies' respective levels of virtue.
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Aug 1, 2020 05:06
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