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Jewmanji posted:Agreed somewhat on “realism” being a stupid way to evaluate space wizards battling in bottomless exhaust shafts etc, but the TLJ fight feels totally inert to me because they’re basically teeing up on putties from Power Rangers. In terms of raw emotion nothing can match Luke hacking away at his own dad in blind revenge until he cuts his hand off. You just can’t beat it. And then Luke pivots from bloodlust to shock and terror... perfect in every way. The context of the TLJ throne room brawl goes beyond just Rey and Kylo Ren dunking on bunch of faceless mooks tbh. For me, it carries just as much weight as Luke whaling away on Vader in ROTJ, or any other emotional high of the entire film saga (imo). It's really an interesting entanglement for both the hero and the villain—Rey thinks she turned Ben back to the light, and Kylo Ren used the situation to maneuver himself to become Supreme Leader and tries to have Rey join him. I love that kind of dynamic the puts two opposing forces into a situation where they have to work together, and it being implemented in TLJ with Rey and Ben is something that will always earn my applause. I'll never forgot the feeling on opening night when I caught myself thinking "holy poo poo, is Ben a good guy? Did he come back to the light?" when the music swelled and he went back-to-back with Rey. That was such a great moviegoing moment/cinematic experience for me. People always like to take a crack at TLJ and how Rian Johnson subverts expectations, only to dial it back to the status quo each time, and Ben going back to being the bad dude at the end of the throne room fight is clearly indicative of that notion. I get it. Doesn't bother me, though.
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Aug 1, 2020 08:47
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The TLJ fight rules because it looks awesome and is bookended by 2 really good scenes, Snoke monologuing his own death which has the super awesome stinger of the lightsaber flying to Rey's hand in 1 shot while the force theme blares at max volume, and then Adam Driver's incredible plea for Rey to join him. I marked out hardcore in the theater when they went back to back, it was great cinema. That scene alone made seeing the movie opening night worth it. A kind of inverse scene would be rey & kylo kissing in TROS which made me want to physically boo the screen at an opening night showing. Edit: and I agree with teagone, the aesthetic and sound of the fight rules. I want all future star wars movies to have a warbly blade saber.
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Aug 1, 2020 09:34
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The choreography and editing are pretty bad, but it's the best ST fight because it's the scene where the ST threatens to become genuinely interesting Alas
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Aug 1, 2020 10:03
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I've grown to detest the phrase "subverting expectations". Just say "plot twist" like people have been saying for decades!
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Aug 1, 2020 12:30
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Elfgames posted:i don't even understand that like the fight is them just dunking on mooks Especially since the prequel Jedi are far more brutal in their attacks on the battle droids and clones 2house2fly posted:I've grown to detest the phrase "subverting expectations". Just say "plot twist" like people have been saying for decades! But how else are people supposed know that I'm close personal friends with Mike Stoklasa?
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Aug 1, 2020 14:10
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No one would have paid nearly as much attention to the ridiculous choreography of that fight if the movie hadn't invalidated the three and a half hours of movie leading up to the fight ten seconds later. "All this old dead dogma we've uncritically swallowed is what's loving everything up. This was never our war, never our struggle, this was some bullshit we were born into and we should reject it and make something new. You and I are the ones who can do it." Oh poo poo this is super cool I wonder where- "But you're EVIL!" -oh. If Vader had killed the Emperor and Luke had immediately killed Vader and then hopped on the throne and said, "Get to blastin them Rebel cruisers Officer Gleepglop!" people would mock that fight mercilessly as well.
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Aug 1, 2020 14:58
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I feel like subverting expectations is foreshadowing something then not doing it, while plot twists can be foreshadowed and still go ahead because the audience is not prepared to accept that outcome.
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Aug 1, 2020 14:59
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OctoberCountry posted:Especially since the prequel Jedi are far more brutal in their attacks on the battle droids and clones a lot of people are so racist that they empathize more with space nazis than space slaves, its hosed up honestly
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Aug 1, 2020 15:07
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It's a testament to Adam Driver's power as an actor that Kylo tried to gaslight Rey into shacking up with him and the entire audience was outraged that she refused
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Aug 1, 2020 15:35
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:To be clear: the "Anakin and Obiman swing their swords in a loop for several mintues without hitting eachother" complaint is literally confusing a popular animated gif with what happens in the actual movie. Isn't the other guy's staff hitting his?
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Aug 1, 2020 15:50
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Grandpa Palpatine posted:Isn't the other guy's staff hitting his? I dont think it actually is (hes too far back) but that's probably whats happening on script and how the scene looks at pace so yes. E: kylo's offer is the same one that vader makes like in Empire. Its not actually that new, the only interesting thing about it is that the Emperor in this case is already dead, so the offer is genuine rather than being a means to an end. Alchenar fucked around with this message at 17:03 on Aug 1, 2020 |
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Aug 1, 2020 17:00
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2house2fly posted:It's a testament to Adam Driver's power as an actor that Kylo tried to gaslight Rey into shacking up with him and the entire audience was outraged that she refused Probably says more about the audience
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Aug 1, 2020 17:08
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2house2fly posted:I've grown to detest the phrase "subverting expectations". Just say "plot twist" like people have been saying for decades! 
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Aug 1, 2020 17:10
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Grandpa Palpatine posted:Isn't the other guy's staff hitting his? And that guards name, was Whoopso Buttarfingars
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Aug 1, 2020 17:13
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Grandpa Palpatine posted:Isn't the other guy's staff hitting his? There's a lot going on.  As noted earlier, the shot practically does everything in its power to draw your eye away from the two characters being launched into eachother. The actual point where the two weapons bump is offscreen, so we never even see it happen. On top of this, the actors don't do a very job of 'selling' the physical impact. The spear is lightly bumped, but the actor is supposed to act as though it was blown out of his grip, so he's like "whoa, look!!! it's flying out of my hand!!!" while he gently tosses the prop aside. The end result is that it looks like he's deliberately tossing the spear away in order to block the lightsaber with his hands instead. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 17:40 on Aug 1, 2020 |
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Aug 1, 2020 17:21
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Okay but imagine if in that exact moment he miraculously WAS able to catch and hold Kylo's blade with his hands.
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Aug 1, 2020 17:32
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JonathonSpectre posted:No one would have paid nearly as much attention to the ridiculous choreography of that fight if the movie hadn't invalidated the three and a half hours of movie leading up to the fight ten seconds later. It’s almost like Rey has a moral compass and Kylo Ren is lying to himself about the extent to which he And everyone else can ignore the past
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Aug 1, 2020 17:50
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TheLoquid posted:It’s almost like Rey has a moral compass and Kylo Ren is lying to himself about the extent to which he And everyone else can ignore the past It’s always interesting when people write this vague nonsense with such conviction. Kylo’s specific goal is to prevent the events of the prequels from reoccurring. Even at this point, he is aware that Palpatine’s behind it all - in spirit, if not in literal fact yet. He predicts that the Sith will return and he wants Rey to help stop them by abandoning the Republican system of government. That is the opposite of ‘ignoring the past.’
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Aug 1, 2020 17:57
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He actually wants to prevent the events of the original trilogy from reoccurring, ie he wants to prevent the formation of a new rebel alliance so he can rule the galaxy unopposed
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Aug 1, 2020 18:12
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galagazombie posted:Or all the awkward fake profanities they would use like "Sithspit" and "Emperors Black Bones" because they gotta keep this PG. Though Disney seems to be getting in on this with "Karabast". Fierfek, frak/frakking, frell, kark/karking, kriff/kriffing and spast as well
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Aug 1, 2020 18:41
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2house2fly posted:He actually wants to prevent the events of the original trilogy from reoccurring, ie he wants to prevent the formation of a new rebel alliance so he can rule the galaxy unopposed Well, no. Not at all. Kylo's goal is "to continue what Vader started", and Vader's goal was to end the destructive conflict between the Empire and the Republican Alliance. The keyword is the specific use of "destructive" as an adjective. Vader's goal is not to end all conflict with some total imperial victory. Vader's goal is to replace the stupid millenia-old cyclical conflict of "good versus evil" with a new progressive struggle of the proletarians against the capitalists (i.e. what DJ stands for). In other words, Kylo's argument is literally that those who ignore history will be doomed to repeat it. The very weak counterargument is that we can stick to the old ways and maybe things will work out better. We just need Hope (which is literally what Palpatine wants them to think). This is not complex stuff, people. TLJ is a didactic children's movie in which Luke Skywalker says (at his 'low point') that the space cops are bad and should be abolished but is then convinced by Leia and Rey that gradual reform is the answer. What could the message be?? SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Aug 1, 2020 |
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Aug 1, 2020 18:44
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I'm reminded we got a new Smeg kettle.
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Aug 1, 2020 18:45
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It gave me mild psychic damage as a teen fan of Red Dwarf to look at a catalogue and realize that Smeg is not a futuristic swear word but a popular kitchen appliance brand
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Aug 1, 2020 19:37
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OctoberCountry posted:Especially since the prequel Jedi are far more brutal in their attacks on the battle droids and clones The Jedi violence—or any violence and prejudice in general—against droids in Star Wars and the PT specifically is very milquetoast in its presentation. To be even more specific, the tone of almost all scenes involving droids getting maimed/destroyed by Jedi is played to comical effect at times throughout the prequels, more so playing up the effect of how awesome and badass it is to be a Jedi, deflecting away from the seriousness of what the Jedi are actually doing when they're cutting down helpless droids. TLJ's depiction of violence on the other hand, and specifically the throne room fight, shows violence born out of desperation and survival—there's a realness to the situation for Rey and Ben, and that's reflected through all aspects of filmmaking; the fight itself, the acting, the set dressing, etc. This is opposed to violence born out of being inconvenienced; that kind of violent depiction is rampant for the Jedi throughout the prequels, until Order 66 drops.
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Aug 1, 2020 19:38
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I think the problem people have follwoing your Star Wars reading SMG is that it's very hard to swallow Ren & Vader being proletarian christian-communists and not the stock bad guys they're presented as. The only people who are actually presented as upfront as actual leftist freedom fighters and not fascists who are definitely just working within the system only long enough to destroy it are the Rogue One faction of the rebellion, whom Vader murders. So when Ren says he wants to continue Vader's work I'd guess most people assume he means 'continue killing the Jedi and being a fascist' and not 'continue building the framework of space communism by usurping a fascist military empire, continuing to commit atrocities with an organisation staffed with people who still believe in said fascism and enacting the communism by unknown, unstated and undepicted means'
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Aug 1, 2020 19:39
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teagone posted:The Jedi violence—or any violence and prejudice in general—against droids in Star Wars and the PT specifically is very milquetoast in its presentation. To be even more specific, the tone of almost all scenes involving droids getting maimed/destroyed by Jedi is played to comical effect at times throughout the prequels, more so playing up the effect of how awesome and badass it is to be a Jedi, deflecting away from the seriousness of what the Jedi are actually doing when they're cutting down helpless droids. I don't think those two things conflict as much as you say. Violence can be both played to comical effect and be visceral and brutal, take most action scenes in Robocop, for example. The Jedi versus droid scenes are definitely comedic, but the droids (and, to a lesser extent, some Jedi) get very graphically eviscerated.
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Aug 1, 2020 19:51
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since Emperor Palpatine was pretending to be the ghost of Vader, Kylo probably thinks Vader wanted whatever Palpatine wants him to think Vader wanted, and it seems doubtful that Palpatine would want Kylo to be a radical Christian communist
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Aug 1, 2020 19:54
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The only true brutal display of lightsaber violence in the PT that matches the tone of the TLJ throne room fight is when Yoda chucks his saber into the chest of a clone while storming the Jedi temple with Obi-Wan in ROTS, Mace beheading Jango (sorta), and that split-second clip of a Geonosian getting cut in half (by Anakin I think?) in AOTC. Other than that, nothing else from the PT comes to mind. [edit] Schwarzwald posted:I don't think those two things conflict as much as you say. Violence can be both played to comical effect and be visceral and brutal, take most action scenes in Robocop, for example. I agree. But I'm arguing more for tone and narrative affecting the presentation and feeling of brutality. The violence in Robocop is played 100% straight and more for shock factor. teagone fucked around with this message at 20:01 on Aug 1, 2020 |
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Aug 1, 2020 19:55
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teagone posted:The Jedi violence—or any violence and prejudice in general—against droids in Star Wars and the PT specifically is very milquetoast in its presentation. To be even more specific, the tone of almost all scenes involving droids getting maimed/destroyed by Jedi is played to comical effect at times throughout the prequels, more so playing up the effect of how awesome and badass it is to be a Jedi, deflecting away from the seriousness of what the Jedi are actually doing when they're cutting down helpless droids. TLJ's depiction of violence on the other hand, and specifically the throne room fight, shows violence born out of desperation and survival—there's a realness to the situation for Rey and Ben, and that's reflected through all aspects of filmmaking; the fight itself, the acting, the set dressing, etc. This is opposed to violence born out of being inconvenienced; that kind of violent depiction is rampant for the Jedi throughout the prequels, until Order 66 drops. But the most violent moments in the throne room fight are also comedic crowd-pleasing moments, specifically the guard getting turned into confetti in a random floor fan and Kylo quickly lobotomizing another with Anakin's saber. There's nothing especially realistic about any of it and Jewmanji had a good point in comparing it to Power Rangers. The entire fight is clearly meant to energize and thrill the audience with exactly how "awesome and badass" Rey and Kylo are when they work together in order to have them better empathize with Rey's feelings of disappointment when Kylo reveals he's just a selfish dipshit who wants to take Snoke's place.
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Aug 1, 2020 20:02
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OctoberCountry posted:The entire fight is clearly meant to energize and thrill the audience with exactly how "awesome and badass" Rey and Kylo are when they work together in order to have them better empathize with Rey's feelings of disappointment when Kylo reveals he's just a selfish dipshit who wants to take Snoke's place. It's also clearly meant to make you think—just as Rey does—that maybe Ben is a good guy now. The actual fight itself has very showy/crowd-pleasing moments for sure, but the underlying narrative fueling the fight makes it feel all the more weightier. That's the "realness" I'm referring to; these characters aren't simply inconvenienced into violence, or resorting to it because some minor nuisance is standing in there way. The tone of the sequence and the stakes at play are directly opposed to that notion, and the violence reflects that imo. Just note that this is my personal experience and reading of the throne room brawl, and I am not trying to convince you or anyone that's HOW the scene should be read. It's a purely subjective experience, and I agree that not everyone sees the fight like I do. Just expressing my thoughts to give a different perspective.
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Aug 1, 2020 20:44
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JonathonSpectre posted:If Vader had killed the Emperor and Luke had immediately killed Vader and then hopped on the throne and said, "Get to blastin them Rebel cruisers Officer Gleepglop!" people would mock that fight mercilessly as well. I mean, Luke was originally supposed to take the mask after that and be like "Now I am Vader." gently caress I want to step into whatever dimension that Lynch Revenge Of The Jedi was made.
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Aug 1, 2020 22:47
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MasqueradeOverture posted:I mean, Luke was originally supposed to take the mask after that and be like "Now I am Vader." According to Kasdan he pitched it for one ending for ROTJ. Hardly “originally supposed to.” thrawn527 fucked around with this message at 23:33 on Aug 1, 2020 |
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Aug 1, 2020 23:28
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multijoe posted:I think the problem people have follwoing your Star Wars reading SMG is that it's very hard to swallow Ren & Vader being proletarian christian-communists and not the stock bad guys they're presented as. The only people who are actually presented as upfront as actual leftist freedom fighters and not fascists who are definitely just working within the system only long enough to destroy it are the Rogue One faction of the rebellion, whom Vader murders. So when Ren says he wants to continue Vader's work I'd guess most people assume he means 'continue killing the Jedi and being a fascist' and not 'continue building the framework of space communism by usurping a fascist military empire, continuing to commit atrocities with an organisation staffed with people who still believe in said fascism and enacting the communism by unknown, unstated and undepicted means' You need to be more truthful and accurate in your analysis. Vader does not kill any of the Rogue One dudes in the Rogue One movie. Vader attacks an Alliance ship sent by space monarch Bail Organa. In fact, Vader specifically appears in the film at the exact point at which the Rogue One crew dies, as if acting as their spirit. There’s a very direct and obvious connection drawn between Vader and the ‘too radical for the Rebellion’ Vader later attempts to ally himself with Luke’s Rogue Squadron, a group of freedom fighters that has splintered away from the Rebellion proper. So the point is consistently, across films, that Vader hates the elitist rich in the liberal rebellion but supports the various rogues in their fight against Literal Satan. DJ is, of course, another rogue. But, more broadly, the flaw in your analysis is that anybody who looks scary must be a Hitler. That kind of “Obama’s a Muslim!” silliness was directly mocked in Attack Of The Clones, when Dooku (who is merely a feudalist rear end in a top hat) explains Palpatine’s plan directly to the audience and calls on the Jedi to help him protect the galaxy’s alien populations against the rising tide of Space Fascism - but ends up ignored and vilified because he wears black. If you wear a black shirt, you must be a sith!!!
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Aug 2, 2020 00:39
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:It’s always interesting when people write this vague nonsense with such conviction. so you're ignoring the character's stated intentions and making up an off-screen explanation that attempts to incorporate the third (as of that moment unplanned*) film? *planned in name only
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Aug 2, 2020 00:40
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Grandpa Palpatine posted:so you're ignoring the character's stated intentions and making up an off-screen explanation that attempts to incorporate the third (as of that moment unplanned*) film? Nope! In TLJ, Kylo says he wants to get rid of the Sith, when the Sith were already fully wiped out decades ago. (Snoke isn’t a Sith.) So, Kylo is talking about the inevitable reemergence of the Sith from inside the New Republic - i.e. the rise of the antichrist Rey Skywalker, already foreshadowed in TFA. Palpatine being revealed as literally alive only underlines this.
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Aug 2, 2020 00:44
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I can kind of see SMG's point, or, well, understand it, but only due to the scene in Empire where Vader asks Luke to join him so that THEY can rule the galaxy together as father and son, i.e. usurp the Emperor and create their own kingdom but that doesn't mean they're communists. He's a straight up fascist not unlike the Spanish Carlists.
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Aug 2, 2020 00:46
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Nope! In TLJ, Kylo says he wants to get rid of the Sith, when the Sith were already fully wiped out decades ago. we had no idea that the Sith were wiped out. It's never straight up stated that the Emperor and Vader were the last Sith. I figured he meant the Sith religion or mysticism or whatever. that rule of 2 crap is all EU extra bullshit. only the films matter. yes Yoda says that line at the end of the Phantom Menace, but it was more like a platitude and a warning that the real villain has yet to be discovered, not some hard fast rule of two.
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Aug 2, 2020 00:49
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Been having a great time in lockdown finally reading the secret history of star wars
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Aug 2, 2020 01:18
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I think I saw Thundersaber open for QOTSA once.
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Aug 2, 2020 01:19
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:There's a lot going on. These guys also remind me of the original theatrical conceptions of ninjas, who wore black to blend in with the stagehands moving parts of the set. Combined with the curtain, this says to me that these guys ARE pretty lame and draw power from theatrics, in the way that robots storm trooper and clone troopers do and have done. He's throwing his whip away because it's his cue to get stabbed into the 3d camera. It's a room full of the guys with the sword who indiana jones shoot, indiana jones himself has his cyborg whip thrown at the wall. These guys are all as cool as darth maul, theres 8 (I think) of them, and they get ceremonially killed by two dumb young jedi who arent on the same page about what they want. The best impact is "sold" by the guy who turns into ribbons of confetti. Stagecraft!
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Aug 2, 2020 01:25
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