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What the gently caress What the gently caress Why, Redcloak?
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Aug 3, 2020 14:46
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e: doubleposted
blizzardvizard fucked around with this message at 14:51 on Aug 3, 2020 |
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Aug 3, 2020 14:48
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ultrafilter posted:Here's the comic. It sounds like that, but odds are good that there's some way to make this work. A few strips later he says ‘Use Commune to tell me when you’ve got Redcloak to agree’ so I doubt we’re going to see Thor hop down and resolve things (plus a deus-ex-machina wouldn’t really be Burlew’s style). Besides, Durkon’s got to have a 20-25% chance of making his saving throw, right?
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Aug 3, 2020 14:51
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Making saving throws has never been a strength of this party.
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Aug 3, 2020 14:53
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ultrafilter posted:Didn't Thor say that all they needed was for Redcloak to cast a 9th-level spell? Implosion fits the bill. I don't think "Redcloak used a 9th level spell ever, we got 'im!" is really how it works, I think they need a 9th level slot's energy devoted towards the seal. Taciturn Tactician fucked around with this message at 15:04 on Aug 3, 2020 |
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Aug 3, 2020 14:56
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Durkon passing or failing the saving throw is entirely dependent on one factor - which does Rich think will make for a better story?
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Aug 3, 2020 14:56
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Rest of the party: goddamnit, Durkon, could you stay alive for ONE ROUND?
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Aug 3, 2020 14:57
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Durkon didn't even mention channelling the quiddity, I'm pretty sure Redcloak has to actively decide to blow a spell slot on Thor's Diplomatic Overture or whatever instead of a random 9th level spell getting hijacked. Honestly I feel like going "TDO has leverage and Thor wants to work something out, can we help the gods communicate safely" instead of "What do you mean Goblins aren't a PC race" would have been more successful.
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Aug 3, 2020 14:59
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Mikl posted:No no no, you see. Redcloak is agreeing to the deal. He's sending Durkon directly to Thor, so Durkon can report on it.
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Aug 3, 2020 15:00
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paradoxGentleman posted:What the gently caress Redcloak is nothing if not extremely willing to use death as a way to silence people who know too much about what he's doing. He's decided that this offer is ultimately not going to be the gods fixing what they broke, and as such he won't settle for it. If negotiations are over, there's not a lot of reason for him to let a minion of his enemies walk away or have a chance to strike first. Honestly, while obviously this sucks from our perspective, I don't actually think it's unreasonable for Redcloak to turn Durkon down from his perspective. Durkon is offering very real concessions and compromise, but what he's offering is a mortal deal based on the seizure of Azure City. The gods are not offering any protection or changes to their teachings or enforcement of rules in return for Redcloak giving up his celestial leverage. As far as Redcloak knows, if he takes this deal, an order of paladins could still sweep through Gobbotopia and murder everyone without falling, even if their mortal leaders would be angry with them, and that's not acceptable to Redcloak. He needs the gods themselves to acknowledge gobins, not just for mortal politics to, and considering he's operating on a celestial scale I don't think he's unreasonable to pursue that. The problem is I think he still doesn't understand just how real the threat of the gods erasing this world is- either from Durkon not explaining the backstory or simply Redcloak blowing off what Durkon is saying as a hard sell, I think Redcloak honestly doesn't think "the gods end the world and goblins start again just as badly as they did this time" is a likely outcome.
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Aug 3, 2020 15:04
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Toplowtech posted:Implosion don't work on gaseous form, so i guess he may just be checking if he is dealing with a vampire. That's a terrible excuse to cast implosion on someone but hey, it's Durkon. Unfortunately, it takes five rounds to shift between gaseous and corporeal forms with Wind Walk, so Durkon's still got to save, unless this is the most solid-est gaseous form ever.
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Aug 3, 2020 15:05
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Taciturn Tactician posted:The problem is I think he still doesn't understand just how real the threat of the gods erasing this world is- either from Durkon not explaining the backstory or simply Redcloak blowing off what Durkon is saying as a hard sell, I think Redcloak honestly doesn't think "the gods end the world and goblins start again just as badly as they did this time" is a likely outcome. I would disagree. I think redcloak doesn't care. I think he honestly doesn't give two shits about goblinkind. Not really. He cares about how much he gets, and that is it. You can see it when he says "Oh so I shou- WE should" in panel 4. He wants his own trauma validated and made into something better and he's willing to kill as many people as possible in order to make himself feel better about it.
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Aug 3, 2020 15:10
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Josef bugman posted:I would disagree.
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Aug 3, 2020 15:12
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- Minrah? Now your chance. Talk about a cliffhanger! - Welcome to neutral evil, Redcloak. Trying to kill in middle of peace talk is a big no-no. And, as an aside, is very ironic. - Durkon didn't mentioned that The Dark One won't survive, did he? He really should. - As for why? Well, There's two options. One, stick to the old plan - all or nothing. Second, abandon it... and settle for less. Well, we should have expected Redcloak's fatal flaw to come here. But why go for the kill? Suspicions of "he'll fight me later if I keep him alive" besides, because Durkon is making a good case, but Redcloak can't allow himself to be convinced - so he shoot, closing the lid on the offer before he feel too temped.
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Aug 3, 2020 15:12
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Toplowtech posted:Yes it possible that since the death of Left-Eye he went full nihilist and just want to end the world. And now he realizes he never wanted to succeed in his god attempt to blackmail the gods. Wouldn't surprise me. But there is one thing I wish would happen, however unlikely, is that Redcloak now gets the Miki treatment and The Dark One abandons him.
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Aug 3, 2020 15:13
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Josef bugman posted:I would disagree. Redcloak and TDO both have a huge problem where they have revenge and justice inextricably tied together in their minds
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Aug 3, 2020 15:14
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Dias posted:Rest of the party: goddamnit, Durkon, could you stay alive for ONE ROUND? Talking is a free action.
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Aug 3, 2020 15:46
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ikanreed posted:Talking is a free action. We already did this joke
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Aug 3, 2020 15:58
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Drakyn posted:it's going to be some flavour of 'you must defeat the guy who wanted to stop the setting being based on acres and acres of squirming bags of racist worms because he was a very bad person and had good motives but went about them the wrong way, how tragic, perhaps in another life you could've been friends, now go do his job but properly since he was too flawed to accomplish it and you aren't.' ikanreed posted:The classic ham-handed writing solution(applied over and over and over and over and over in media) to this problem is to have the "overzealous villain with a good cause" be defeated and personally suffer while his cause somehow is inherited by the good guys, who "do it right". 'There, now that we've had the Most Reasonable Character act with the Most Reason and good faith possible to demonstrate that the Bad Guy is Bad and also insincere there are no longer any deeply grubby implications about stopping him. Thank goodness we've found a way to keep the story's conflict going without our heroes having to say aloud "Actually, Fighting Structural Racism Is Evil"' Drakyn fucked around with this message at 16:10 on Aug 3, 2020 |
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Aug 3, 2020 16:03
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Josef bugman posted:Wouldn't surprise me. But there is one thing I wish would happen, however unlikely, is that Redcloak now gets the Miki treatment and The Dark One abandons him. Do Clerics work like that? I thought it was just a paladin thing.
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Aug 3, 2020 16:04
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Josef bugman posted:I would disagree. I don't think his actions throughout the rest of the comic suggest that he doesn't care at all about goblins. I think he has a personal stake in this and that it would be pretty bizarre if he didn't, but that doesn't somehow translate to him having zero regard for the rest of his race. It's possible that that moment where he closes his eyes and frowns as he makes his decision is him acknowledging that he refuses to turn back even if he gets what he says he wants, but it's also possible that it's him steeling himself to turn down what he sees as the ultimate temptation to capitulate, and instead stay resolute in following his god's plan.
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Aug 3, 2020 16:12
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Tenebrais posted:Do Clerics work like that? I thought it was just a paladin thing. quote:Ex-Clerics: The difference is that most gods don't have a very strict code of conduct, and its easy for players to pick a god whose code of conduct matches their character, so it almost never comes up.
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Aug 3, 2020 16:20
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Taciturn Tactician posted:The problem is I think he still doesn't understand just how real the threat of the gods erasing this world is- either from Durkon not explaining the backstory or simply Redcloak blowing off what Durkon is saying as a hard sell, I think Redcloak honestly doesn't think "the gods end the world and goblins start again just as badly as they did this time" is a likely outcome. He doesn't think it's a possible outcome at all. As far as he's aware, the world being destroyed is a better outcome for goblinkind because it means the Dark One gets a seat at the table the next time the gods build a world. Gun Jam posted:- Durkon didn't mentioned that The Dark One won't survive, did he? He really should. Yeah, that might have convinced Redcloak.
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Aug 3, 2020 16:22
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Shugojin posted:Redcloak and TDO both have a huge problem where they have revenge and justice inextricably tied together in their minds We don't know for sure what The Dark One actually wants. Redcloak learned of the plan when he first donned the Red Cloak, and that seems to be the last communation he's received, outside of Jirix' brief visit to the goblin afterlife. Josef bugman posted:Wouldn't surprise me. But there is one thing I wish would happen, however unlikely, is that Redcloak now gets the Miki treatment and The Dark One abandons him. That actually makes a fair amount of sense! Redcloak specifically mentions in this strip that his continued status as a cleric is what leads him to conclude he's doing good work, after Oona suggested that he hadn't been acting in the best interests of all goblinkind. The closest thing to a word of god we have from The Dark One is specifically asking that Gobbotopia is maintained though diplomacy and logistics. I could actually see those strips being a setup for Redcloak being hit with divine retribution on some sort in the very near future. E: Also a fair point below; The Dark One himself died during a very similar negotiation. Even if Redcloak being judged to go against the plan is just a mark against him, attacking someone during a good-faith parlay could well be specifically against his doctrine. Either way, from a design perspective, Rich has never set up a character to be killed at the end of a strip, only for them to be killed at the top of the next one. If Durkon is destined to go "klrrtchp" and leave a stain on the nice stone table, something will happen in-between, whether that is just Minrah or whoever else is looking on to react in horror, or Durkon getting out a round's worth of expletives, we're not quite finished. Zulily Zoetrope fucked around with this message at 17:51 on Aug 3, 2020 |
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Aug 3, 2020 16:24
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It would make me laugh if we get Red Cloak going "I did everything you wanted" and the reply is just "No, you did everything You wanted".
Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 16:39 on Aug 3, 2020 |
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Aug 3, 2020 16:30
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Call back to "made my saving throw" next strip
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Aug 3, 2020 16:55
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Josef bugman posted:It would make me laugh if we get Red Cloak going "I did everything you wanted" and the reply is just "No, you did everything You wanted". That would be pretty unreasonable considering The Dark One's only message he's ever communicated to Redcloak is via Jirix and it was "don't screw this up". Miko did a ton of stuff that was clearly following her own goals even if it meant undercutting her teachings and authorities that had been given power by the gods she was supposed to be following. Redcloak's only major deviation from following the plan that was embedded into his head by a divine artifact was creating Gobbotopia which The Dark One seems to have directly endorsed as good. Following the plan too rigidly and not giving it up on it without any input from his god telling him to give up on it isn't necessarily the right choice but it's hardly being wilfully obtuse about his god's wishes for his actions. It would be kind of funny if he got de-clericed just because attacking someone during a peaceful negotiation was a flagrant violation of his god's rules, though.
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Aug 3, 2020 17:02
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OTOH he did just screw it up.
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Aug 3, 2020 17:03
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ikanreed posted:OTOH he did just screw it up. Dark one doesn’t know that though.
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Aug 3, 2020 17:08
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ikanreed posted:OTOH he did just screw it up. He killed an envoy of the gods who wanted to negotiate, which is literally what The Dark One also did.
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Aug 3, 2020 17:09
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DoctorTristan posted:Dark one doesn’t know that though. Maybe. It's not clear what the limits of divine knowledge of the material plane are. I doubt Rich is using the official god rules, which say the dark one knows everything within a [DeityLevel] mile radius of anywhere his name was spoken for [DeityLevel] hours. Taciturn Tactician posted:He killed an envoy of the gods who wanted to negotiate, which is literally what The Dark One also did. Okay fair point.
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Aug 3, 2020 17:15
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Taciturn Tactician posted:He killed an envoy of the gods who wanted to negotiate, which is literally what The Dark One also did. Counterpoint - he didn't accept a start to a peace talk. That's another problem by itself, but it's different from murdering somebody under false pretense of a peace talk. Namely, in that first you can send somebody to negotiate (and stop this from being a war that'll continue 'till one side perishes) ; the other, not so much.
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Aug 3, 2020 17:25
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Wasn’t getting lured into an ambush disguised as peace talks the reason TDO’s mortal self died in the first place? I could see him potentially (albeit unlikely) being some kind of pissed at his high priest for seemingly doing the same thing.
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Aug 3, 2020 17:31
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That is exactly how TDO died and the resulting rage of the goblins spilled so much blood in his name that he arose as a new God of his own pantheon entirely.
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Aug 3, 2020 17:33
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Shugojin posted:That is exactly how TDO died and the resulting rage of the goblins spilled so much blood in his name that he arose as a new God of his own pantheon entirely. Prepare for the rise of Banjo.
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Aug 3, 2020 17:36
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Regalingualius posted:Wasn’t getting lured into an ambush disguised as peace talks the reason TDO’s mortal self died in the first place? I could see him potentially (albeit unlikely) being some kind of pissed at his high priest for seemingly doing the same thing. Kinda depends if TDO thinks like Redcloak or not. If he thinks like Redcloak, he'll see it as bitter irony and exactly what the other races deserve: they've been betrayed in the same way they betrayed the goblins, it's just karma. If he doesn't, he'll probably be pretty pissed.
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Aug 3, 2020 17:38
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Taciturn Tactician posted:He killed an envoy of the gods who wanted to negotiate, which is literally what The Dark One also did. That's not quite the same. The Dark One thought the gods had betrayed him, and likely doubted the envoys' intent. Regardless of how he feels about all the other parties, Redcloak seems to have been convinced that Durkon is acting in good faith, and attacked him solely because he wants to contain the information he had just shared.
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Aug 3, 2020 17:51
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:That's not quite the same. The Dark One thought the gods had betrayed him, and likely doubted the envoys' intent. Regardless of how he feels about all the other parties, Redcloak seems to have been convinced that Durkon is acting in good faith, and attacked him solely because he wants to contain the information he had just shared. Not the information. Durkon's an enemy, and if he's not negotiating with you, he's fighting you.
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Aug 3, 2020 17:56
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Does implosion leave a rezzable corpse? Implodes Durkon, Durkon has a chat with Thor and the Red Cloak rezzes Durkon as a Lesson/warning/some other purpose
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Aug 3, 2020 18:03
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ikanreed posted:Maybe. It's not clear what the limits of divine knowledge of the material plane are. I doubt Rich is using the official god rules, which say the dark one knows everything within a [DeityLevel] mile radius of anywhere his name was spoken for [DeityLevel] hours. I’m not talking about whether or not TDO is aware of this conversation. Even if he were listening in he doesn’t have the information necessary (namely what Thor told Durkon, and that Thor is acting in good faith) to know that his plan is doomed and that Redcloak just imploded his only chance of success. DoctorTristan fucked around with this message at 18:12 on Aug 3, 2020 |
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Aug 3, 2020 18:08
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