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galagazombie posted:I'll give you that the canonicity of "Deleted Scenes" and such is not always the final say on a subject. Especially if the scene or line was cut because the creator wanted to take the story in a different direction. But I think they also can be extremely useful in understanding or even enhancing a film, especially if it was cut for time/pacing and does not actually contradict the film itself. The History of the Sith scene while deleted informs everything that takes place after it. The characters in all subsequent films act as though that information is what they know to be true. We outright see it being true with things like Palpatine's conga line of apprentices or them using "Darth" as a title. Doesn't matter. Also who cares what Lucas says off-screen.
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Aug 3, 2020 00:10
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Paratext like deleted scenes can provide clues pointing to inferences that may be supported by the text proper.
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Aug 3, 2020 00:42
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All I know is that I did not understand in theater what the hell Kylo Ren's goal other than "rule the galaxy by replacing the most incompetent government seen on film outside of farce movies or propaganda" was or why Rey, a character with seemingly 0 convictions beyond "survive" and "become powerful" would say no.
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Aug 3, 2020 03:01
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Barudak posted:All I know is that I did not understand in theater what the hell Kylo Ren's goal other than "rule the galaxy by replacing the most incompetent government seen on film outside of farce movies or propaganda" was or why Rey, a character with seemingly 0 convictions beyond "survive" and "become powerful" would say no. Kylo Ren had no goal, apart from fetishizing vader. I'm not even saying this from a "he's a fanboy, he's an edgelord" angle. I don't think JJ though about his motivation beyond making him a dark reflection a luke. Which is why he tries to embrace the dark side and kills his dad, you see. It's not more complicated than that.
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Aug 3, 2020 03:07
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The Little Death posted:Kylo Ren had no goal, apart from fetishizing vader. I'm not even saying this from a "he's a fanboy, he's an edgelord" angle. I don't think JJ though about his motivation beyond making him a dark reflection a luke. Which is why he tries to embrace the dark side and kills his dad, you see. It's not more complicated than that. Oh yeah, this is absolutely true since TRoS reveals despite being leader of the galaxy he acts like some middle manager lackey because he's not interested in galactic rule which in a more competent directors hand could have been a really good plot arc but uh, you know the whole TRoS exists and he literally wants to kill Palpatine which all the previous things he did helped him accomplish by [error: file missing]
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Aug 3, 2020 03:12
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The stakes in the ST are so loving muddy despite having the benefit of the previous movies (which the OT didn't have). In TFA at least there is the threat of Starkiller Base but past that it seems like a few hundred dudes just trying to finish killing each other off in the most half-assed ways. Like, after Leai dies what concrete goal is the Resistance even trying to accomplish and who is now leading them towards this goal? Is Poe going to become a Senator or whatever?
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Aug 3, 2020 03:23
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Barudak posted:All I know is that I did not understand in theater what the hell Kylo Ren's goal other than "rule the galaxy by replacing the most incompetent government seen on film outside of farce movies or propaganda" was or why Rey, a character with seemingly 0 convictions beyond "survive" and "become powerful" would say no. His motivations are poorly conveyed, but very straightforward: Ben Solo is a Christian who sees the Republic as sinful, and his parents are trying to guilt him into complacency with evil. “Don’t you love us, son? Come back to the Republic and we can be a family again....” Against this temptation, he is trying very hard to behave ethically. To that end, he goes to Snoke (The Space Pope) for guidance, and adopts a new persona: Kylo Ren. Snoke’s teachings make a lot of sense but, unbeknownst to Kylo, Palpatine is mixing some bullshit in there to make Kylo into a strawman and smear Christianity. This includes the pissy temper-tantrum stuff and his tolerance for Hux. Kylo is always trying to be good, but he’s been effectively taught wrong, as a joke. But why did Ben turn so strongly against the Republic? Because Luke Skywalker suddenly went fascist and tried to murder him for his Christian thoughtcrimes. That incident convinced Ben that the Republic was not worth saving - that the events of the prequels were happening all over again. Ben Solo‘s pre-Snoke political and religious beliefs are extremely obscure, but we do finally meet that side of the character at the end of Episode 9. Ben gives up his life to kill Palpatine and (hopefully) keep Rey off the antichrist path. So that is the core of the character that Luke tried to kill, trying to break free of Palpatine’s manipulations. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 04:17 on Aug 3, 2020 |
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Aug 3, 2020 04:07
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Anakin’s love of liberal democracy is the entire love story of Episodes 1-3. He loves the Republic so much that, in his desperation to protect it, he (nearly) chokes it to death. It’s a very obvious metaphor. Seeing what she has enabled (“to be angry is to be human”), Padme then admits that liberalism is a failure by committing suicide. Im wracking my brain trying to think of a single example of how Anakin loves the Republic more than any other character. The prequels aren’t a tragedy about Anakin’s love for the Republic. They tell the exact opposite story. The prequels are about Anakin’s triumphant (though ultimately incomplete) revenge against the institutions he despises. That Anakin comes out of Jedi school spouting fascist rhetoric is unsurprising giving that the Jedi bought him as slave at age nine and trained him as a child soldier. Anakin’s arch through the prequels is his slow recognition that he despises the Jedi and his developing taste for vengeance. Anakin is a man defined by his hate well before he takes the name Vader or dons his mask. This is perfectly illustrated by the ridiculous “sand” speech he gives Padme in AOTC where he describes his feelings for her as the negation of a thing that he hates. That Anakin, born and raised on a literal planet of sand, would make this comparison is extremely telling. Finally, the idea “overwhelming compassion” is a Vader-like quality is just wrong. It’s directly contradicted by nearly every action Vader takes on screen. Even if Vader is the droid-liberator (a reading that is wholly unsupported by the text of the OT) then he is a liberator in the style of John Brown. Righteous, justified, but certainly not a man who displays “overwhelming compassion” The Kingfish fucked around with this message at 05:08 on Aug 3, 2020 |
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Aug 3, 2020 04:56
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The Kingfish posted:Im wracking my brain trying to think of an example of a single example of how Anakin loves the Republic more than any other character. [...] Anakin’s arch through the prequels is his slow recognition that he despises the Jedi and his developing taste for vengeance. Again, we have to be careful. Anakin does not despise the Jedi Order. One of Anakin's key character traits is actually his desire to please everyone. He's doing his best to serve both the Jedis and Palpatine, while they scheme against eachother, up until this part of Episode 3: Anakin: You can't kill [Palpatine], Master. He must stand trial. Windu: He has too much control of the Senate and the Courts. He is too dangerous to be kept alive. At this point, Anakin can no longer have it both ways, and must make choice. And, at this point, Windu's actions confirm what Palpatine claimed: "what if I am right, and [the Jedi] are plotting to take over the Republic?" Keep in mind that Palpatine's not lying! The Jedi really are plotting to take over the Republic: Windu: The Jedi Council would have to take control of the Senate, in order to secure a peaceful transition... Yoda himself admits that this is a Dark Side thing to do. So this is why, from Anakin's point of view, the Jedi are evil. Windu and the others have deceived him. They did lie about how the Force works, etc. Palpatine is the only one who's telling him the truth. And that's foreshadowed: Anakin: I'm tired of all this deception. I don't care if they know we're married. Padme: Anakin, don't say things like that. You're important to the Republic - to ending this war. I love you more than anything, but I won't let you give up your life as a Jedi for me. Anakin: I've given my life to the Jedi order, but I'd only give up my life for you. Padme, jokingly: I wouldn't like that. I wouldn't like that one bit! SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 05:37 on Aug 3, 2020 |
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Aug 3, 2020 05:34
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Palpatine is an accelerationist in the basic sense that he pushes the logic of his frenemies to its unnatural conclusion. He’s having an enormous amount of fun exposing the hypocrisies of the Jedi and the senators, all the insurmountable contradictions of liberal capitalism, etc. He has fully embraced diabolical Evil as an ethos. This is why Palpatine has become a present-day camp icon. This is strongly reinforced in Clone Wars' The Zilla Monster episode. Palpatine is having so drat much fun being pure evil. Forcing a compassionate scientist to torture a sentient being is so perfectly in character. He's a pleasure to watch all through that two-parter, just reveling in it all.
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Aug 3, 2020 06:04
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Palpatine absolutely revels in how much of a fuckup Anakin is that he ends up reforged into a faulty walking iron lung used as his own personal Frankenstein. He seems to be outright playing with how easy it is for him to take over the galaxy, setting up one half to crash into the other and knowing he'll win however the pieces fall. The Clone Wars cartoon (the 2D one) has him get kidnapped by the Seperatists and clearly playing it like a game. He's like a Borgias figure- the galaxy to him is like an artichoke, to be devoured leaf by leaf.
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Aug 3, 2020 06:52
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Palpatine absolutely revels in how much of a fuckup Anakin is that he ends up reforged into a faulty walking iron lung used as his own personal Frankenstein. He seems to be outright playing with how easy it is for him to take over the galaxy, setting up one half to crash into the other and knowing he'll win however the pieces fall. The Clone Wars cartoon (the 2D one) has him get kidnapped by the Seperatists and clearly playing it like a game. To be clear though, it's not that he's just having fun in a general sense; he specifically stands for a freedom through nietzschean affirmation. This is where Palpatine and Vader obviously differ as character, because Vader is just as ethical a subject but feels a profound weight of responsibility. It's not fun for Vader; he is suffering in solidarity with the meek. So this is where we can go back to Anakin and the topic of compassion: "Attachment is forbidden. Possession is forbidden. Compassion, which I would define as unconditional love, is essential to a Jedi's life. So, you might say that we are encouraged to love." People don't pay much attention to this but, in defining compassion as "unconditional love", Anakin is defining love as the desire to alleviate suffering. And that's all well and good, except that he is talking about eliminating Padme's suffering. He's not talking about loving the droids, or the tusken raiders. That authentically universal love doesn't appear until Vader. So, in the meantime, Anakin and Padme are playing this game where Anakin loves Padme, but Padme loves the Republic and so Anakin gives everything he has to the service of the Jedi....
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Aug 3, 2020 08:00
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Alchenar posted:Eh 'Always two, there are" is something I think the natural read of is "Everytime the sith appear, there's two of them". Right. Because Yoda definitely only speaks literally every time we see him. He never uses parables or metaphors or anything like that.
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Aug 4, 2020 01:49
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I mean. He was right. Only two, there were.
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Aug 4, 2020 01:51
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Grandpa Palpatine posted:Right. Because Yoda definitely only speaks literally every time we see him. He never uses parables or metaphors or anything like that. You’re right, he never uses parables, ever. He speaks in aphorisms.
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Aug 4, 2020 02:04
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Aight so: except for the entire plot of Episode 3 where fascist Anakin gets exactly what he desired but ends up ironically hosed by Satan and transformed into a different person in the crucible of incredible suffering, and the entire plot of Episode 5 where he tries to unite with the Space Leftists to defeat the fascists who he now despised, and the ending of Episode 6 where he saves the leader of the Space Leftists by assassinating the fascist leader.... well, there’s really no evidence at all! Fascists try to kill each other all the time bro. There were multiple attempts on Hitler backed by fascists who thought they could do it better. I still think you're trying way too hard to establish something that isn't there, primarily because you want it. Vader's helmet is literally a storm trooper helmet, and I mean the real kind, not the fake ones.  His motives in the prequels are as follows: "this democracy thing sucks. They get nothing done and only bicker and act like they've done something. Slavery still exists. My mom is still a slave. My mom is now dead. She was raped and murdered by some backwoods tribal cannibals because the senators are corrupt and fake and don't care about helping. I can do better. I'm going to help this political savvy power-broker who agrees with me. Ok we just overthrew the republic and are shoring up support to rule as an empire. Now we will fix things." His motives in the OT are basically the same, only he has an extreme amount of pent up guilt from committing atrocities to stay in power. For the greater good or whatever. He finds out that he has a son. In order to maintain power for fascist sugar daddy, he mutilates his only son and almost kills him, even at one point believing he did kill him albeit briefly. He is then commanded by fascist daddy to convert or kill his son. While he's in the process of trying to convert or kill his son he finds out that he also has a daughter. Either he lets his guard down or gets his rear end kicked for saying the wrong thing -- and his son almost kills him. Now he has to watch this old bastard facist daddy kill his only son, who he never was able to raise, who he was never able to have a relationship with -- all because he was too busy committing atrocities on behalf of this old cranky bastard who is killing his son. So yea he flipped the gently caress out and said "NO YOU SHUT THE gently caress UP DAD" and threw his rear end over the railing. It WAS personal. Maybe not completely personal, but it was mostly personal.
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Aug 4, 2020 02:07
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Imagery is a lot more complex than “Vader’s helmet evokes (among other things) a Nazi helmet therefore his ideology is fascist”. How does that square with the last shot of ANH being a triumph of the will reference? Are the rebels fascists too?
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Aug 4, 2020 02:11
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Off the top of my head, the Imperial stormtroopers carry a mix of German and British WWII weapons, and of course the award ceremony from ANH is modeled on a scene from Triumph of the Will, so you can't really make a case based on a prop.
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Aug 4, 2020 02:20
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Also Vader's helmet is based more on Samurai than Nazis.
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Aug 4, 2020 02:22
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I don't think the note the prequels ended on for Vader was anything like "now we will fix things"
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Aug 4, 2020 02:31
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SolarFire2 posted:Also Vader's helmet is based more on Samurai than Nazis. Right - and he’s not a samurai either. It’s the joke where everybody ignores Count Dooku because black tunic. Then Mace Windu does the same poo poo and he’s a hero because beige tunic. Even if we accept that Vader’s helmet is an Evil Nazi Skull helmet, Vader didn’t choose the outfit. Palpatine bolted it onto his face.
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Aug 4, 2020 02:39
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plus one of the things the EU keeps coming back to because it's obviously visually supported by the films is 'palpatine made vader's suit wrong on purpose, as a joke'.
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Aug 4, 2020 02:41
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Vader spends the first movie bickering with and choking various Imperial people officers then tries to recruit Luke for a coup in the second movie. He obviously has his own ideas on how to run things, it’s a major point across the original trilogy.
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Aug 4, 2020 02:50
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Yeah it probably bears mentioning that he offers to “rule the galaxy” with Luke not “rule the Empire”. He doesn’t want to be the Emperor.
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Aug 4, 2020 03:10
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trying to argue that the sith rule of two isn't a thing to own smg
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Aug 4, 2020 03:30
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The nazi iconography is actually hard to read because I know that Lucas was one of those directors that was influenced by the movement to rehabilitate Riefenstahl in the 60s. I mean this is sort of a death of the author point, but a lot of the visuals George was evoking don't necessarily translate to a direct symbolic meaning (see all his Kurosawa nods), a lot of was just his attempts at recreating his own direcing heroes.
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Aug 4, 2020 03:42
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The Little Death posted:The nazi iconography is actually hard to read because I know that Lucas was one of those directors that was influenced by the movement to rehabilitate Riefenstahl in the 60s. I mean this is sort of a death of the author point, but a lot of the visuals George was evoking don't necessarily translate to a direct symbolic meaning (see all his Kurosawa nods), a lot of was just his attempts at recreating his own direcing heroes. The Triumph Of The Will reference is absolutely a joke, like "here comes the new boss, same as the old boss." Lucas wasn't sure there would be any other films when he made A New Hope, so the message of the prequels had to be summarized in a couple minutes.
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Aug 4, 2020 06:27
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Lucas' own comments about Triumph of the Will make it seem like the similarity was unintentional, but he admits that he was thinking about referencing it in a scene with the Empire so it was probably still floating around in his subconscious.The Making of Star Wars posted:Another minor controversy the press got hold of was the rumor that Lucas had deliberately used Leni Riefenstahl’s Nazi propaganda film Triumph of the Will (1935) for the throne room scene. “The truth of that particular situation is that I hadn’t seen it for about fifteen years,” Lucas says. “I had wanted to see it again because, early in the writing process, I was thinking of doing a scene with the Emperor on the Empire planet, and I wanted to do that like Triumph of the Will. But it unfortunately got published that I was going to try to see Triumph of the Will and use it in Star Wars ; evidently somebody read that somewhere and then looked at the end of the movie and thought that looked just like Triumph of the Will. But the end of the movie is just what happens when you put a large military group together and give out an award.” The reading of foreshadowing a return to the corrupt Republic state is still somewhat supported by the film though, since Lucas also used the Force theme to represent the values of the Republic. Scoring that scene with a triumphant version of the theme and (even subconsciously) framing it like Nazi propaganda definitely introduces some interesting subtext.
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Aug 4, 2020 07:02
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Grandpa Palpatine posted:Right. Because Yoda definitely only speaks literally every time we see him. He never uses parables or metaphors or anything like that. Jewmanji posted:You’re right, he never uses parables, ever. He speaks in aphorisms. Yoda often speaks in aphorsisms but when he says "there are always two of this thing" the grander truth he's pointing out is that the Jedi still don't know what the threat out there is, not that numbers literally have no meaning
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Aug 4, 2020 08:22
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ungulateman posted:plus one of the things the EU keeps coming back to because it's obviously visually supported by the films is 'palpatine made vader's suit wrong on purpose, as a joke'. I would think it’s more sinister than just “a joke.” Surely, Palpatine is a student of history and knows the standard MO of sith apprentices to betray their master, and with an apprentice as strong as Anakin, of course he’d want a curtailed, controllable version of him that he can utilize and point towards the enemies of the Empire, much like how capitalism co-opts leftist leaders who get gamed by the establishment and end up endorsing the system they once railed against.
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Aug 4, 2020 08:35
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The weapon props in Star Wars are famously WW2 guns with various bits and greebles attached. Han Solo's pistol is a Mauser with an added scope. I mostly know that from Payday 2 where a couple of mostly joke weapons are WW2 guns that you can modify to resemble the Star Wars blasters, and there's an achievement for doing so.
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Aug 4, 2020 09:01
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2house2fly posted:I don't think the note the prequels ended on for Vader was anything like "now we will fix things" It ends on something of a joke, with Anakin - this character who has spent the last three films with his every emotion written all over his gurning face has been transformed, by Palpatine, into an absolute cipher. But we have the "noooooooOOOOooooOOOO" to let us know that he's achieved no inner peace and his fury and dissatisfaction with the status quo haven't gone anywhere.
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Aug 4, 2020 11:47
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josh04 posted:It ends on something of a joke, with Anakin - this character who has spent the last three films with his every emotion written all over his gurning face has been transformed, by Palpatine, into an absolute cipher. But we have the "noooooooOOOOooooOOOO" to let us know that he's achieved no inner peace and his fury and dissatisfaction with the status quo haven't gone anywhere. Yeah, for all the memes that clip inspired, it actually does work to show that despite emerging as the iconic mystical killing machine, there's still that once idealistic young man who's trapped in more ways than one. ruddiger posted:I would think it’s more sinister than just “a joke.” Surely, Palpatine is a student of history and knows the standard MO of sith apprentices to betray their master, and with an apprentice as strong as Anakin, of course he’d want a curtailed, controllable version of him that he can utilize and point towards the enemies of the Empire, much like how capitalism co-opts leftist leaders who get gamed by the establishment and end up endorsing the system they once railed against. And I've said before, the overtones of the Emperor wanting to turn Luke are obvious- he wants to trade in the old and busted Skywalker for the new model.
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Aug 4, 2020 12:20
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Very Palpatine to suggest killing Luke specifically so Vader will get protective and suggest himself that they try to convert him, essentially volunteering to train his own replacement
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Aug 4, 2020 13:44
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Grandpa Palpatine posted:Fascists try to kill each other all the time bro. There were multiple attempts on Hitler backed by fascists who thought they could do it better. My man, Vader didn't go through a wardrobe and pick that poo poo out. The Emperor chose what he'd look like after his surgery. All you're providing for in this is more evidence of what the Emperor wants Vader to be, not what Vader himself desires
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Aug 4, 2020 14:32
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Well thanks to SMG now I want to watch all the drat movies again from the beginning to try to see that Vader-Jesus against facism
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Aug 4, 2020 14:47
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You could just watch 4, 5, 6 as a first step, the difficult part is shunting all the pop culture conventions of "Darth Vader the villain" out of your head and watching what the character actually does. e: V "I was only following uniform orders!" josh04 fucked around with this message at 15:04 on Aug 4, 2020 |
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Aug 4, 2020 15:01
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BiggestBatman posted:My man, Vader didn't go through a wardrobe and pick that poo poo out. The Emperor chose what he'd look like after his surgery. All you're providing for in this is more evidence of what the Emperor wants Vader to be, not what Vader himself desires The SS didn’t get to choose their outfits either.
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Aug 4, 2020 15:02
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josh04 posted:You could just watch 4, 5, 6 as a first step, the difficult part is shunting all the pop culture conventions of "Darth Vader the villain" out of your head and watching what the character actually does. In the first thirty minutes of ANH we see Vader preparing to inflict medical torture on a woman. A little later he stands by silently while Tarkin blows up a planet.
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Aug 4, 2020 15:09
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I mean, the whole thing in RotJ where he takes off his helmet to look at Luke without the helmet for the first and last time, despite knowing it'll kill him.The Kingfish posted:In the first thirty minutes of ANH we see Vader preparing to inflict medical torture on a woman. A little later he stands by silently while Tarkin blows up a planet. Yeah, OT Vader is someone who's internalised murder, torture and atrocities as a part of his day job- of course, as a teenager he wiped out an entire village down to the last child. And now I'm suddenly thinking of Metal Gear's Raiden. Especially since the franchise is basically a contemporary Star Wars in a lot of ways, with Big Boss as the Vader figure and Raiden being implied to be basically a second Big Boss.
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Aug 4, 2020 15:12
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