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Guy A. Person posted:Vader spends the first movie bickering with and choking various Imperial people officers then tries to recruit Luke for a coup in the second movie. He obviously has his own ideas on how to run things, it’s a major point across the original trilogy. The way I've always seen that is that Vader has contempt for the military apparatus of the Empire, because he sees himself as above them. He reports directly to the Emperor. He is second in command only to the Emperor. In ANH, he has to report, temporarily, to Tarkin, because Tarkin's in charge of the Death Star project, and he's pissed about it. He only actually chokes one Imperial in ANH, when he insults Vader's religion, and Tarkin tells him to knock it the gently caress off. Which Vader then does, like he's just loving bored with everything going on here, like he's above it. So Tarkin can tell him what to do, but Vader doesn't get in trouble or anything. So Vader clearly has seniority, but not on this project. He's more of a believer in the Force and that aspect of the Emperor than the military and the Empire itself. Then, at some point in between ANH and ESB, he finds out he has a son. Likely because he finds out that the person who blew up the first Death Star was named Skywalker (this is the interpretation of the current EU, but it's not hard to reach that conclusion on your own), but however he finds out, Vader now knows he has a son. Suddenly he is using the full might and force of the Empire's military to "find the Rebels" (re: find Skywalker). He'll stop at nothing. Suddenly he's killing Imperial officers left and right if they seem like they're not helping him reach that goal. He'll take the fleet into a god drat asteroid field to find Luke's friends if they might lead him to Luke. He does not give a poo poo anymore. The Emperor lied to him, he has a son, and he needs to find him. I love the scene with the Emperor in ESB in this light, because it reads as Palpatine saying, "Vader, what are you doing? Anyway, we need to find someone. He is the son of Anakin Skywalker." And Vader is all, "Whaaaaa? That's crazy. I mean, if you say so. Say...do you think we could turn him?" While mentally going, "poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo". Then he's back to the search for Luke. When he finally finds Luke in Cloud City, he makes his pitch for Luke to join him. Not to be champions of the true Rebellion or anything. But to take down the Emperor, who betrayed him, and rule the galaxy in his place, as father and son. It was always personal to him, with ruling the galaxy as a dictatorship, like he wanted to as a teenager talking to Padme, in the back of his mind. When we see him in Return of the Jedi, he's defeated. He had a chance to win over Luke, and he lost. Luke is the Emperor's prey now, and he's sure Luke will lose to the Emperor just as he did. It's only when he sees that Luke stood up to the Emperor, in a mirror of the Dooku scene from the beginning of ROTS, stayed strong, chose likely death over the Dark Side, and is now reaching out to Vader, his only family, that Vader realizes that he hosed everything up. That the Dark Side wasn't the answer, that he could just chuck this old dude down a pit. So he does, and sacrifices himself for his son. Because it's personal. Anyway, I forgot what my point was, but watching Vader through the OT rules. thrawn527 fucked around with this message at 15:26 on Aug 4, 2020 |
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Aug 4, 2020 15:17
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Elias_Maluco posted:Well thanks to SMG now I want to watch all the drat movies again from the beginning to try to see that Vader-Jesus against facism It’s equally important to note what the good-guy rebels are up to. Like when Luke offers Jabba money and promises to leave him alone at the start of Episode 6 - or when Obiwan convinces Luke to adopt “a certain point of view” to rationalize all kinds of bullshit, etc. They’re not evil, but there’s a lot of hints about what kind of society the Rebels will end up creating. Another aspect of Vader-as-Christ is that Anakin is the incarnation of the wrathful Old Testament God, who’s all jealous and petulant. It’s easy to dunk on Anakin for being a violent loser, but he’s not precisely the villain either. The Kingfish posted:In the first thirty minutes of ANH we see Vader preparing to inflict medical torture on a woman. A little later he stands by silently while Tarkin blows up a planet. Vader changes drastically after Episode 4. Episode 5 Vader would not defer to Tarkin, or rely on a targeting computer instead of the Force. Leia is correct to note that Vader is ‘on a leash’ in Episode 4. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 15:33 on Aug 4, 2020 |
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Aug 4, 2020 15:25
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Vader's role in the Empire makes sense considering one of his many, many pop culture imitations; the Legate Lanius in Fallout: New Vegas is the post-apocalyptic faux-Romans' chief enforcer, a towering, imposing figure always clad in full body armour and a mask, as much a myth as a man. The Emperor Caesar outright says that Lanius has no love for the Legion, and he considers that one of his most useful attributes, since Lanius won't tolerate the slightest failure or hold back on sending Legionaries to their deaths to achieve his aims. The Sith thrive on hate, and when the Jedi are believed extinct and the rebels are a scattered few, they're low on enemies to hate, so in Palpatine's wicked cunning he creates a right-hand-monster who hates the Empire, hates reminders of the Republic, hates his boss, and almost certainly hates himself. The idea that his children actually survived is the one bright point in Darth Vader's life he's had for decades, and naturally something the Emperor tries to weaponise ASAP.
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Aug 4, 2020 15:29
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The Kingfish posted:In the first thirty minutes of ANH we see Vader preparing to inflict medical torture on a woman. A little later he stands by silently while Tarkin blows up a planet. Even by the end of Empire he's torturing Han to place a force phone call with Luke; I don't mean that watching the OT without preconceptions will make Vader into a person who does good things, but it makes him into a person with complex motivations that change over time, rather than "avatar of Imperial force".
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Aug 4, 2020 16:14
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josh04 posted:Even by the end of Empire he's torturing Han to place a force phone call with Luke; I don't mean that watching the OT without preconceptions will make Vader into a person who does good things, but it makes him into a person with complex motivations that change over time, rather than "avatar of Imperial force". I think one of my favorite ways the PT enriches the OT is how the murder of his mom sends psychic shock waves out across space to Anakin, and in ESB he’s so morally compromised that he uses that same technique to torture his son.
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Aug 4, 2020 16:37
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The torture thing in ESB is really tricksy because the Jedi are like “torture is a part of life and we must accept it in order to find true harmony and balance, etc.”, while Vader’s message is that torture is inexcusable. By getting Luke to ditch Yoda, Vader’s proved that he and Luke fundamentally agree (which is why Luke then freaks out and attempts suicide). Episode 2 then adds the fact that Vader is putting himself in the role of the intolerable “sandperson” - so imagine an alternate version of Episode 2 where, instead of slaughtering the Tusken, Anakin convinces the Jedi to quit the Republic and join the Raiders in their battle against colonialism.
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Aug 4, 2020 17:03
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josh04 posted:Even by the end of Empire he's torturing Han to place a force phone call with Luke; I don't mean that watching the OT without preconceptions will make Vader into a person who does good things, but it makes him into a person with complex motivations that change over time, rather than "avatar of Imperial force". The thing is his status as 'avatar of Imperial force' is forced upon him (no pun intended) and no doubt reinforced by his exoskeleton. It's certainly what he's billed as. His self-hatred just makes him more of a weapon. It also makes his appearance in Rogue One work well, since he considers Krennic to be amusingly pathetic rather than just another incompetent underling, enough to make a dad joke at him. There's no point in killing this guy when he's guaranteed to get himself a much more poetic death. (Which of course, he does) That also reminds me that Phineas and Ferb: Star Wars is great and everyone itt should watch it.
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Aug 4, 2020 17:05
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Episode 2 then adds the fact that Vader is putting himself in the role of the intolerable “sandperson” - so imagine an alternate version of Episode 2 where, instead of slaughtering the Tusken, Anakin convinces the Jedi to quit the Republic and join the Raiders in their battle against colonialism. isn't that basically Dune
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Aug 4, 2020 17:07
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The torture thing in ESB is really tricksy because the Jedi are like “torture is a part of life and we must accept it in order to find true harmony and balance, etc.”, while Vader’s message is that torture is inexcusable. By getting Luke to ditch Yoda, Vader’s proved that he and Luke fundamentally agree (which is why Luke then freaks out and attempts suicide). Star Wars is missing a scene where the Rebel alliance torture someone for information. Ghost Leviathan posted:The thing is his status as 'avatar of Imperial force' is forced upon him (no pun intended) and no doubt reinforced by his exoskeleton. It's certainly what he's billed as. His self-hatred just makes him more of a weapon. I just mean the simplified version of Vader from the popular consciousness, who isn't generally portrayed as subordinate to Tarkin in New Hope or tearing up the Imperial rulebook in Empire.
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Aug 4, 2020 17:54
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It’s should be noted that Vader’s disdain for and undermining of the Empire’s military bureaucracy is entirely in line with a Vader-as-Schutzstaffel interpretation of the films. Vader and Palpatine embody the only two essential roles of a totalitarian authority—the leader and the secret police.
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Aug 4, 2020 18:16
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josh04 posted:Star Wars is missing a scene where the Rebel alliance torture someone for information. Rogue One has this! Kinda. The Kingfish posted:It’s should be noted that Vader’s disdain for and undermining of the Empire’s military bureaucracy is entirely in line with a Vader-as-Schutzstaffel interpretation of the films. Vader and Palpatine embody the only two essential roles of a totalitarian authority—the leader and the secret police. The infighting between branches of authority is also 100% in line with authoritarian and especially fascist governments.
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Aug 4, 2020 18:33
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Ghost Leviathan posted:isn't that basically Dune I’m not familiar with Dune, so I can’t say. But it is a very obvious distinction between Anakin and Vader. Anakin feels awful after killing the Tusken, even though they tortured his mom to death. Padme’s not wrong: that his wrathful vengeance is totally understandable. She can rationalize it: to be angry is to be human. Even if God is cruel and vengeful, turning people into pillars of salt and killing all the first-born of Egypt, etc. - well, God Himself is ‘only human.’ (If you want to understand why Palpatine is going through all these years of effort, it’s because he’s directly rebelling against this flawed and all-too-human God. Paradise Lost.) Anyways, what Vader proposes is an entirely different political configuration: an impossible scenario where Anakin, Shmii, and the Tusken unite against the system that would force them into pointless, destructive conflict. And the Jedi oppose that political message on the basis that it would betray the Republic: Obiwan: Patience. Luke: And sacrifice Han and Leia? Yoda: If you honor what they fight for? Yes. Why honor the Republic and the Jedi Order if the message is “Anakin should have just let his mom die”? That’s not a real solution! That’s Yoda doing his best to avoid the issue, because he has no solution. He’s directly stating that this is just the way things are, and it’s evil to try and change it. The tree of liberty is refreshed, from time to time, with blood.
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Aug 4, 2020 19:50
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:I’m not familiar with Dune what the loving fucker gently caress
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Aug 5, 2020 07:06
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BiggestBatman posted:My man, Vader didn't go through a wardrobe and pick that poo poo out. The Emperor chose what he'd look like after his surgery. All you're providing for in this is more evidence of what the Emperor wants Vader to be, not what Vader himself desires I stay away from that kind of logic since OT came first. Or simply realize that he could have changed his wardrobe at any time but likes looking like and acting like a nazi.
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Aug 5, 2020 10:46
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It's hard to say either way without any further context. Vader would have to go out of his way to requisition any changes to his outfit, I imagine, given it's entirely custom.
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Aug 5, 2020 11:35
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i don't think vader can just change up his iron lung
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Aug 5, 2020 11:51
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If we're going full tactical realism then it makes no sense, if Vader is able to change his appearance at will, that we never see him in so much as a ceremonial cape. lando-cape-closet.gif
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Aug 5, 2020 11:56
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Grandpa Palpatine posted:I stay away from that kind of logic since OT came first. Or simply realize that he could have changed his wardrobe at any time but likes looking like and acting like a nazi. Then you are lost
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Aug 5, 2020 12:04
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His wardrobe does change tho in the OT. In all three of the movies
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Aug 5, 2020 12:09
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Grandpa Palpatine posted:I stay away from that kind of logic since OT came first. Or simply realize that he could have changed his wardrobe at any time but likes looking like and acting like a nazi. George had the conception of Obi Wan abandoning Anakin in lava when writing the OP, it’s even in the novelization based on an earlier script. It stands to reason that Palpatine would be his rescuer, even if that detail isn’t mentioned explicitly. The OT makes pretty clear that Vader has given up a lot of his self worth to Palpatine so I’m not sure defiantly remodeling his outfit is going to be high on the list of things he feels like he can do. Lucas has been saying since the 70s that the Empire is the not-too-distant-future of the US rather than Nazis (to the extent that turned out to be different), and and Vader is a samurai
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Aug 5, 2020 12:19
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josh04 posted:If we're going full tactical realism then it makes no sense, if Vader is able to change his appearance at will, that we never see him in so much as a ceremonial cape. Scary-but-actually-pretty-impractical-when-you-think-about-it is kind of the Empire's thing.
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Aug 5, 2020 13:49
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He's got a little pod on his ship where he can take his helmet off - I don't see why he couldn't swap parts out while he was in there. Or at least switch out the colors if he gets sick of black all the time. Although I guess it does go with everything...
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Aug 5, 2020 14:09
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does vader just poo poo/piss in his suit????
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Aug 5, 2020 14:11
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He uses force transports it into space.
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Aug 5, 2020 14:20
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josh04 posted:He uses force transports it into space. it was weird when Lucas got on twitter and said that early jedi didn't have bathrooms, they just used the force to disappear their poo poo
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Aug 5, 2020 14:30
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Angry Salami posted:He's got a little pod on his ship where he can take his helmet off - I don't see why he couldn't swap parts out while he was in there. Or at least switch out the colors if he gets sick of black all the time. Although I guess it does go with everything...
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Aug 5, 2020 14:31
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punishedkissinger posted:it was weird when Lucas got on twitter and said that early jedi didn't have bathrooms, they just used the force to disappear their poo poo The Jedi had five temples on Coruscant and only one for both Tatoonine and Jakku, makes you think.
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Aug 5, 2020 14:35
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the name of the jedi temple on tattooine just translates to 'force place' in tattooese
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Aug 5, 2020 14:47
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Angry Salami posted:He's got a little pod on his ship where he can take his helmet off - I don't see why he couldn't swap parts out while he was in there. Or at least switch out the colors if he gets sick of black all the time. Although I guess it does go with everything... I'm reminded that an AU in the Marvel comics (I think where Luke dies and Leia ends up becoming a Jedi) has Vader survive and switch sides, with a new white suit.
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Aug 5, 2020 17:04
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Nothing to add on vader chat but it's been a good read. Too bad that SMG doesn't know dune tho. I'm reading the Secret History which has this a hodgepodge of George notes from 73, equal parts illuminating and amusing: e: "Valorum" is a proto-Vader at this point, Starkiller is proto-Luke, and Skywalker is proto-Obi
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Aug 5, 2020 17:16
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Dune is a really fun read since it was originally a rebuttal to the trends of sci-fi at the time, including pulp but in particular Asimov's Foundation books, and honestly still pretty much works as well with later sci-fi that were influenced by/heavily ripped it off without bothering to understand the nuances. A big part of that is taking apart the Great Man/superhero myth, pointing out how it's basically indistinguishable from a dictator.
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Aug 5, 2020 19:45
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I would be very keen to read SMG's thoughts on Dune. SMG, I hope you can read Dune and then watch Dune and participate in the Dune thread, someday.
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Aug 5, 2020 20:13
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Also watch Jodorowsky's Dune, to complete the set.
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Aug 5, 2020 20:27
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does vaders suit jack him off
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Aug 7, 2020 21:43
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He doesn’t have it anymore.
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Aug 7, 2020 21:45
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Yeah, why do you think he's so angry all the time?
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Aug 7, 2020 22:44
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Working on my alternate universe fanfiction where vader ended up face up rather than face down on the lava and therefore still had him benis
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Aug 7, 2020 22:51
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No Mods No Masters posted:Working on my alternate universe fanfiction where vader ended up face up rather than face down on the lava and therefore still had him benis Nah, then it just goes up like a candle
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Aug 7, 2020 23:19
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If he was face toward the lava then his face would be burned off and he'd be basically a brain in a jar, but with all the downstairs equipment intact. Which would be a considerable improvement
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Aug 7, 2020 23:30
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No Mods No Masters posted:Working on my alternate universe fanfiction where vader ended up face up rather than face down on the lava and therefore still had him benis VADER (A WHISPER): Luke, help me take this codpiece off. LUKE: But you'll die. VADER: Nothing can stop that now.
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Aug 8, 2020 00:02
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