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I have no idea what just happened, but something just happened.
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Aug 4, 2020 18:06
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| # ? May 28, 2024 00:29 |
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I clicked out for a few days and come back to see my homage to FFXIV being used as the title? 
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Aug 4, 2020 18:18
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Who What Now posted:
Straight White Shark posted:If any of the chumps in the melee were thinking "hell yeah I'm going to go get turned into paste throwing myself against an invincible god with every fiber of my being" maybe they could have done kung fu miracles too. I mean, I assume there's a certain minimum level of hardcore it takes but there were some pretty badass dudes there. Captain Oblivious posted:This is going about as well for you as the time you posited that Cio could never form positive relationships due the essential characteristics of devils. You were really tutting us for being Insufficiently Realistic about Race. ShootaBoy posted:You seem really invested in knowing more about this universe than the guy who invented it. White Chain's arc in the Ring of Power is actually pretty good: From the start of the comic, she has felt tension between her desire to protect the weak & change things for the better, and her identity as a Peace Keeper & Concordant Knight. With help from Vigilant Gaze and Solomon, she does a little introspection and realizes that her desire to control Allison is rooted in a (not unreasonable) fear of nurturing yet another conquering, bloodletting tyrant, but that acting on this fear has strangled any possibility of something better than the Demiurges arising. She realizes that gentleness and allowing flourishing, even potentially dangerous flourishing, is not incompatible with being a Concordant Knight, and may be a more complete way of living Prim's legacy. Now, her response to this realization is, rather than making amends, to throw her shell into a hopeless last stand against the embodiment of oppressive power structure, but to be fair this is a very 82 White Chain answer. Letting go of her identity allows her to finally strike without hesitation. This also fixes her gender dysphoria. See where the writing goes sideways? Having the fairy god-father just magic a solution to her other major conflict flattens her character: rather than having to grow and find a way to reconcile her life as an angel with her identity, magic wish fulfillment just deletes the whole question and gives her the solution she wanted from the start without any effort or development on her part.
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Aug 4, 2020 18:19
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at dismissing one of the core themes of the comic out of hand
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Dead Reckoning posted:But again, we saw Pryan Sor's son try the same thing and get blown into flower petals for his efforts. Are we really expected to believe that in the whole history of this tournament, there has never been anyone else who was in it purely to overthrow the dictator and didn't care what happened to them after? If rules and limits are just a lie, why isn't every single person in Throne an unstoppable badass? Its amazing that you don't even understand White Chain's motivation. As for the latter, most people don't know that rules and limits are a lie, and they don't want to know.
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Aug 4, 2020 18:27
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I trust Abbadon's writing chops to make it so the fulfilled wish still grows her as a person. Plus, I've never liked that "wish fulfilment is bad" take. Getting what you want can still lead to growth and discovery. It also has obvious drama that can emerge from it as the world shifts inwards and outwards to the wish. Like so many tropes, it needs to be used well. But I will admit most wish fulfilment stories are bad. That's a flaw in execution. Finally there is something to be said about staying away from misery porn in your writing. When everything sucks forever and no one ever gets a lasting win until the story squeaks over the finish line. This closes one chapter of her struggles, now white chain faces the new reality of what she is, how heaven and hell will react, hell how the characters immediately close to her will react. What solomon is going to do... Honestly. We're in for a wild ride.
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Aug 4, 2020 18:28
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Man those punches connecting, sparking a point of power and the "Winner" simply moving past to the other sacrificing their shell is similar to the final drill clash in gurren lagann
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Aug 4, 2020 18:34
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Dead Reckoning posted:
Yes because as we know rebelling against what all the other angels say and forging your own path even when you slip up and fall into the same patterns as the other oppressors and turn against the people who love you in a mistaken sense of duty is easy. Being given a chance to leave and hide but instead choosing to stand up and confront the very face of oppression despite victory being obviously impossible and continuing to get up despite multiple opportunities to quit, took no effort or development at all to do, and nothing has changed about White Chain except that now she has skin. This is very smart. This is what people who are good at reading things think.
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Aug 4, 2020 18:34
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Also this is a comic where the protagonist got the voice of god shoved into her skull and she manifests power without understanding it all the time including spears of light and headbutting someone with the face of a god, martial arts allow you to bend the rules of nature, and names have power and literal devils can self actualize themselves into new forms, but the idea of an angel rebelling so strongly against the path laid out for her that she transcends her current form and becomes human is a step too far. The gently caress have you been reading?
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Aug 4, 2020 18:40
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White Chain fought with all of her might against a symbol of the type of oppression she had lived under and internalized by her fellow angels, literally and metaphorically breaking out of her shell to do so, and for some unknowable reason this leads to her actualizing as her ideal self? Well surely that's just baseless wish fulfillment!
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Aug 4, 2020 18:58
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Glagha posted:Yes because as we know rebelling against what all the other angels say and forging your own path even when you slip up and fall into the same patterns as the other oppressors and turn against the people who love you in a mistaken sense of duty is easy. Being given a chance to leave and hide but instead choosing to stand up and confront the very face of oppression despite victory being obviously impossible and continuing to get up despite multiple opportunities to quit, took no effort or development at all to do, and nothing has changed about White Chain except that now she has skin. DR did all this about devils too, back when Cio was in the spotlight. This whole song and dance about how breaking past limitations through painful, emotionally complex will to be a better person is unrealistic, betrays the setting, and doesn’t have enough Hard Men Making Hard Decisions. What I’m saying is that DR buys into Solomon’s schtick so hard he was arguing for it before we learned what it was. A better world is possible and predatory relations are not inevitable; the world is as it is because of choices people make and made. But White Chain is choosing to live towards a better age, rather than wait for one to force her hand like Solomon.
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Aug 4, 2020 18:58
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I have Dead Reckoning on ignore for a reason.
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Aug 4, 2020 19:01
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Feel like we're not talking enough about the escalation of the Muscle Lady Fetish
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Aug 4, 2020 19:03
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Dead Reckoning posted:Uh, devils aren't a race, they're literally an entirely different, predatory kind of life form, which was kind of my point. If Cio and Allison can just magic themselves into a commensal relationship without any of the downsides of human-devil interactions shown in the rest of the story's universe, it flattens their story into just being two people bad at communicating. It means Cio never has to deal with the fact the she once ran a slave sacrifice empire and tried to stab her partner to death in a fit of rage. Worse, it wipes out all the interesting brush strokes that paint the secondary characters and the setting. If human-devil commensalism is possible, why do the devils run a facility to hollow the souls out of trafficked humans under the White Eyed Woman? Are they just assholes? Cio is literally constantly grappling with her self loathing from being yabalcoath. It’s why the party splits in this book. Why did the lords of heaven conquer the wheel instead of bringing enlightenment to the universe? Hunger is not a trait unique to devils, I would invite you to consider the contradiction as an attempt to highlight a point.
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Aug 4, 2020 19:04
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Dead Reckoning posted:But again, we saw Pryan Sor's son try the same thing and get blown into flower petals for his efforts. Are we really expected to believe that in the whole history of this tournament, there has never been anyone else who was in it purely to overthrow the dictator and didn't care what happened to them after? If rules and limits are just a lie, why isn't every single person in Throne an unstoppable badass? She's explicitly not in it to overthrow the dictator, because that is impossible and she knows it. This is about striking at a concept, not even to topple it, but simply because opposing it is the correct thing to do. She's probably not the first person to come at David with the same thought, but she's basically the strongest contender David has ever seen; I think it is permissible to assume that an incredibly disciplined, powerful martial artist who has already done several impossible things through sheer force of will is probably able to apply herself in ways that others are not even if they arrive at the correct mindset. Dead Reckoning posted:This also fixes her gender dysphoria. See where the writing goes sideways? Having the fairy god-father just magic a solution to her other major conflict flattens her character: rather than having to grow and find a way to reconcile her life as an angel with her identity, magic wish fulfillment just deletes the whole question and gives her the solution she wanted from the start without any effort or development on her part. You just described an awful lot of effort and development on her part, though? Your argument seems to be that these are two different issues that must be dealt with separately but a huge part of White Chain's arc this chapter has been the realization that they're not. Solomon oppressing his empire, the Concordance of Angels oppressing White Chain, and White Chain oppressing Allison are all interconnected expressions of systemic oppression. The comic's explicit text has called this out several times by now and thematically it's been hammered home repeatedly with Solomon continually misgendering WC and parroting her harsh judgments of Allison.
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Aug 4, 2020 19:07
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... and, in conclusion, for the story to be true and realistic, the Lords of Creation should simply grind these protagonists to dust beneath their iron-wheeled chariots. Any other outcome is mere fan service.
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Aug 4, 2020 19:19
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Trying to apply Wookiepedia ethics to K6BD is some mindbending poo poo to observe
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Aug 4, 2020 19:21
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Why does Solomon David, the largest of the six billion demons, not simply eat the others?
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Aug 4, 2020 19:21
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If it was possible to defeat the evil empire, why had it not occured before the story had begun?
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Aug 4, 2020 19:23
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GunnerJ posted:Feel like we're not talking enough about the escalation of the Muscle Lady Fetish Looking forward to when White Chain meets up with Princess again and they can have a Buff Lady Flex-off, Major Armstrong-style.
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Aug 4, 2020 19:29
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Also, white chain probably stole some of Dave's black fire, mixed it with her white fire, and is a god now. Just as the other gods were born.
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Aug 4, 2020 19:40
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Dead Reckoning posted:E: Also, White Chain's desire to be a human woman could not be more obvious, especially when her brothers are giving her poo poo about it in Wielder of Names. This is 100% wish fulfillment for her. White Chain has a gender, which is what has long been causing other angels to scorn her. There's still no reason to believe she had a deep inner desire to be made of meat and blood and bone.
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Aug 4, 2020 20:14
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Walrus Pete posted:White Chain has a gender, which is what has long been causing other angels to scorn her. There's still no reason to believe she had a deep inner desire to be made of meat and blood and bone. Another reason she was criticized and berated by other Angels is they believed she was overly empathetic to humans to the point of wanting to be one. That's why the mirror-angel showed a reflection of what WC could be as a human. This was meant to frighten and disgust WC, but she seemed more confused and unsure about her how she even felt about it.
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Aug 4, 2020 20:18
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Exactly. Joe Slowboat posted:DR did all this about devils too, back when Cio was in the spotlight. This whole song and dance about how breaking past limitations through painful, emotionally complex will to be a better person is unrealistic, betrays the setting, and doesn’t have enough Hard Men Making Hard Decisions. Straight White Shark posted:Your argument seems to be that these are two different issues that must be dealt with separately but a huge part of White Chain's arc this chapter has been the realization that they're not. Solomon oppressing his empire, the Concordance of Angels oppressing White Chain, and White Chain oppressing Allison are all interconnected expressions of systemic oppression. The comic's explicit text has called this out several times by now and thematically it's been hammered home repeatedly with Solomon continually misgendering WC and parroting her harsh judgments of Allison. Again, flattening a story into "actually all of the character's problems are the same problem and amenable to she same solution" or "everything is oppression" is not good storytelling. White Chain could be totally comfortable in her gender identity and still question whether the Concordance was doing the right thing like Vigilant Gaze, and she could also be the most hardcore ride-or-die angel order enforcement believer and still not be comfortable in her skin because that's literally Juggernaut Star. Having come to a resolution of one problem give her the solution to the other through literal magic just isn't satisfying to me. Why set up the message, "you cant just punch away all your problems" and then have White Chain do literally that? Dead Reckoning fucked around with this message at 20:42 on Aug 4, 2020 |
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Aug 4, 2020 20:28
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Apparently scores of pages, years of comics, and countless narrative beats leading directly to this outcome is "waving a magic wand".
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Aug 4, 2020 20:33
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Dead Reckoning posted:Actually, IIRC, Solomon never misgenders White Chain. Only ever refers to her by various titles like "Master Angel." 'master' is literally a gendered title my dude lmao
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Aug 4, 2020 20:47
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W.T. Fits posted:Why does Solomon David, the largest of the six billion demons, not simply eat the others? Eating Incubus would just be very unhygienic, this man wallows in filth all day. Likewise, Jadis is encased in glass, you don't want to gargle glass. And eating Gog-Agog is how she'd get you.
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Aug 4, 2020 20:50
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We are getting into some "Angel Truths" territory here
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Aug 4, 2020 21:00
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eke out posted:'master' is literally a gendered title my dude lmao no no, clearly he's just acknowledging that she has completed the journeyman stage of her angelship
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Aug 4, 2020 21:03
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I wonder if the next panel is going to show a cut on Solomon's face with him smiling, so he decided to give her a body because he thinks that's her wish, thus ignoring and negating her entire speech beforehand? Then she is just like "While this mortal female form is kicking rad, I want you to stop being a son of a bitch that never allows change" or some permutation thereof. Thus setting up the conflict of a material desire going head to head with a metaphysical need (Solomon stop being a dick).
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Aug 4, 2020 21:05
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You seem really invested in proving you know more about this story than the guy who loving wrote it.
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Aug 4, 2020 21:16
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Who What Now posted:Apparently scores of pages, years of comics, and countless narrative beats leading directly to this outcome is "waving a magic wand". Fuckin hate it when a story gives characters rewards out of nothing just cause they overcame a bunch of challenges and developed as people, for free!
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Aug 4, 2020 21:22
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Donkringel posted:I wonder if the next panel is going to show a cut on Solomon's face with him smiling, so he decided to give her a body because he thinks that's her wish, thus ignoring and negating her entire speech beforehand? Then she is just like "While this mortal female form is kicking rad, I want you to stop being a son of a bitch that never allows change" or some permutation thereof. Thus setting up the conflict of a material desire going head to head with a metaphysical need (Solomon stop being a dick). Nah there's no way Solomon could have foreseen events would play out this way. Both of them are probably going to be at a loss. Maybe the sheer surprise of what happened will knock something loose in a good way
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Aug 4, 2020 21:23
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It is simply not within logic or reason for Zoss to be able to communicate with Allison past his death. He was beheaded in the opening pages of the series. She's clearly hallucinating him. White Chain certainly should not be able to independently echo the exact sentiments he communicates to one of his many violent legacies while facing off with a different violent legacy and also manage to transcend her own death. I also cannot see the dramatic irony of a technique called PERFECT KILL "TOTAL LIFE OBLITERATION" being used to create new life. After all, the text didn't specifically say he used it despite it having the same visual set up. Additionally, I suspect that White Chain's entire character arc is being wrapped up here and cannot envision any interesting conflicts that may arise her new situation, as witnessing the first ever angel to take a mortal form is boring. Mr_Moose fucked around with this message at 21:29 on Aug 4, 2020 |
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Aug 4, 2020 21:26
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I feel like this being Solomon's fault would cheapen the moment. White Chain doesn't need his approval.
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Aug 4, 2020 21:26
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EDIT: Double posting is bad, even if your last post is invisible.
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Aug 4, 2020 21:35
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Meti and Zoss never said anything about moving faster than drops of falling rain, I can't believe a fairy godmother would just give Solomon David that power. That's doesn't make sense and it's so boring!
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Aug 4, 2020 21:36
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I have no idea whats coming next or how this will all resolve. I sure as hell didn't see this coming. I'm just along for the ride
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Aug 4, 2020 21:44
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There's so many things wrong here.Dead Reckoning posted:Uh, devils aren't a race, they're literally an entirely different, predatory kind of life form, Which were created by humans. And you are wrong, they are indeed a race of people. "People" aren't necessarily human, since this is a fantasy world. Dead Reckoning posted:If Cio and Allison can just magic themselves into a commensal relationship without any of the downsides of human-devil interactions shown in the rest of the story's universe, They can't do that though...? If you're referring to Allicio, it expressly took a lot of energy to do that and they couldn't keep it up for long, and it's likely Allison was only able to do it because of her key. It's not going to be their new permanent form or anything and both still have a ton of poo poo to work out, both alone and with each other. Are you just disappointed that Cio doesn't want to kill and eat Allison all the time? Well, sorry, that's kind of the entire point of her arc - finding a way to live without being evil. I'm sorry that what the comic is doing is, uh, what it's doing. Dead Reckoning posted:it flattens their story into just being two people bad at communicating. Well... Yes. They are just two people bad at communicating. Glad you at least got SOMETHING correct. Dead Reckoning posted:It means Cio never has to deal with the fact the she once ran a slave sacrifice empire and tried to stab her partner to death in a fit of rage. ... What? She's spent a ton of time dealing with the fallout from that - that was the entire reason she didn't want to do the raid on the vault or this tournament. Dead Reckoning posted:Worse, it wipes out all the interesting brush strokes that paint the secondary characters and the setting. Why? Dead Reckoning posted:If human-devil commensalism is possible, why do the devils run a facility to hollow the souls out of trafficked humans under the White Eyed Woman? Are they just assholes? Do all devils do that? Are all black people in gangs? Are all white people in the KKK? Are all Jews greedy? Are all Italians mobsters? You're seeing a small sample of the race, and specifically in throne, a place known for its lawlessness and crime. Devils often form pacts with humans, yes, but again, 1) it's a system humans designed because they created the masks, and 2) there are a lot of humans that willingly do it for reasons that benefit them because they made the system. And yes, the system sucks (THAT'S THE POINT OF THE COMIC). And yes, it's possible for humans and devils to co-exist without parasiting off each other. See: Allison and Cio's relationship and the entire point of Cio's arc. Rotten Red Rod fucked around with this message at 23:03 on Aug 4, 2020 |
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Aug 4, 2020 22:51
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You forget that lies are more beautiful and powerful than truth.
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Aug 4, 2020 23:02
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| # ? May 28, 2024 00:29 |
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Man I really love the theme in this story of world-building as an unreliable narrator. There are all these big important facts that seem immutable, but when you get into the nitty gritty of it, they're just the way things are, not the only way they can be. In much the way it's easy to get stuck in your own context and not imagine a better world, the people of Throne, even the demiurges, are stuck in their own way of thinking, based on what they have inherited. How they were socialized and what they were taught by their masters. God I love the comic.
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Aug 4, 2020 23:04
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