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comedyblissoption posted:it doesnt mean that at all lmao but i understand there are comedic opportunities with the other approach here, on this dying comedy forum
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Aug 4, 2020 12:31
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https://twitter.com/thehill/status/1255181001770315776
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Aug 4, 2020 12:39
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reactionary wishing to return to a mythical better time
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Aug 4, 2020 12:45
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yeah and I bet he'll close guantanamo too
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Aug 4, 2020 13:06
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Aug 4, 2020 13:22
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:the cops locked her rear end in jail, dude. it was a whole big thing. Yeah, I suppose the rumors are dumb and spreading them was too. The reason she made it out of the system was almost certainly just having a legal support network that many others didn't. Her case going to trial is pretty strong evidence that no deals were taken.
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Aug 4, 2020 15:45
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Finicums Wake posted:for marxist economics theoretical foundations: ty
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Aug 4, 2020 16:54
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https://twitter.com/clmazin/status/1290431596290437120 this explains quite a bit about why Chernobyl was written (or at least was interpreted) in the way that it was
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Aug 4, 2020 17:10
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I know it's the literal definition of whataboutism but if the holodomor meant the soviet union was irredeemable and had to be destroyed then what does that say about america has that as just as many atrocities/genocides committed in it's name? edit so i don't have to post my own tweet: Seems somewhat historically reductive to say Soviet Union = Joseph Stalin. Would be like saying America = Andrew Jackson. Not totally incorrect...but kinda missing the point that they weren't the only person to ever lead the country. Lady Militant fucked around with this message at 17:51 on Aug 4, 2020 |
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Aug 4, 2020 17:48
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gradenko_2000 posted:https://twitter.com/clmazin/status/1290431596290437120 everything you need to know about this dude is he wrote scary movie 3 and 4, and after his big break riding on the wave of russophobia, used his one wish opportunity where he could probably pitch any project he wanted...to do the le epic meme Borderlands and press F to say games are art actually Last of Us
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Aug 4, 2020 17:49
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gradenko_2000 posted:https://twitter.com/clmazin/status/1290431596290437120 I'm kind of interested how it all factors out when including any improvements in standard of living for that country and all the atrocities like Holodomor, but it doesn't seem like that has an easy answer. The net effect on death rates doesn't even really matter in modern-day discourse except for when liberals use it for ad hominem attacks on leftists by proxy galenanorth fucked around with this message at 18:01 on Aug 4, 2020 |
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Aug 4, 2020 17:57
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Lady Militant posted:I know it's the literal definition of whataboutism but if the holodomor meant the soviet union was irredeemable and had to be destroyed then what does that say about america has that as just as many atrocities/genocides committed in it's name? i'd probably pick the purges rather than the holdomor when making those comparisons. the holdomor was a horrific event in which lots of people died due to badly implemented policy + drought, but not a deliberate attempt at genocide of ukrainians and kazakhs.
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Aug 4, 2020 18:00
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mila kunis posted:i'd probably pick the purges rather than the holdomor when making those comparisons. the holdomor was a horrific event in which lots of people died due to badly implemented policy + drought, but not a deliberate attempt at genocide of ukrainians and kazakhs. most of the people that talk about the holodomor a lot speak about it specifically as ethnic cleansing though; that's why I'm making the comparison to the way the U.S. government handled the native americans.
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Aug 4, 2020 18:04
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Lady Militant posted:I know it's the literal definition of whataboutism but Something that I've struggled to express clearly is that the reason we engage in "whataboutism" is not to minimize whatever it is that happened that the communist nations are accused of (hell, even if you grant that the Holodomor WAS a deliberate act of genocide, which it wasn't), but to point out the discrepancy in standards where we're never supposed to even try to be communist because it always leads to genocide and totalitarianism, but no such conclusion is drawn for capitalism. When liberal democracy starves millions of Indians, it's either something that can be addressed by reform, or is excused on the grounds of the UK having to operate within wartime conditions. When people starve in a communist country, not only is it implied as something that was done with malice aforethought, it's also considered an inevitability of being communist, at all. galenanorth posted:I'm kind of interested how it all factors out when including any improvements in standard of living for that country and all the atrocities like Holodomor, but it doesn't seem like that has an easy answer. It doesn't even really matter in modern-day discourse except for when liberals use it for ad hominem attacks on leftists by proxy It wasn't an atrocity. That's sort of the important bit. There was a famine in 1932 (which wasn't even limited to Ukraine), and there wasn't enough food to go around, and despite the state attempting to prevent starvation conditions from happening, between the fact that the Soviet diplomatic relations with the rest of the world didn't allow them to import as much food as they might have liked, and the famine meaning there was also insufficient domestic production, people did starve. It does factor out in the sense that these sorts of famines happened on an almost regular basis through the centuries of Czarist Russia, and then didn't. After 1932, the USSR suffered one more food shortage in 1946 in connection to post-war conditions, and then never again.
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Aug 4, 2020 18:10
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gradenko_2000 posted:Something that I've struggled to express clearly is that the reason we engage in "whataboutism" is not to minimize whatever it is that happened that the communist nations are accused of (hell, even if you grant that the Holodomor WAS a deliberate act of genocide, which it wasn't), but to point out the discrepancy in standards where we're never supposed to even try to be communist because it always leads to genocide and totalitarianism, but no such conclusion is drawn for capitalism. For a while I've thought this was a pretty good take on it: quote:Tankies don’t usually believe that Stalin or Mao “did nothing wrong” ...We believe that Stalin and Mao were committed socialists who, despite their mistakes, did much more for humanity than most of the bourgeois politicians who are typically put forward as role models (Washington? Jefferson? JFK? Jimmy Carter?), and that they haven’t been judged according to the same standard as those bourgeois politicians. People call this “whataboutism”, but the claim “Stalin was a monster” is implicitly a comparative claim meaning “Stalin was qualitatively different from and worse than e.g. Churchill,” and I think the opposite is the case. If people are going to make veiled comparisons, us tankies have the right to answer with open ones. iow, "whataboutism" is a defense against making an implicit comparison explicit. https://pastebin.com/raw/fWej4waz
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Aug 4, 2020 18:29
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hypocrisy, an inability to apply the same moral standards to yourself that you do to others, is an ancient moral problem
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Aug 4, 2020 19:17
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dust bowl? never heard of it!
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Aug 4, 2020 19:31
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Centrist Committee posted:dust bowl? never heard of it! look they may have been angry grapes but at least we had grapes
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Aug 4, 2020 19:31
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gradenko_2000 posted:It wasn't an atrocity. That's sort of the important bit. There was a famine in 1932 (which wasn't even limited to Ukraine), and there wasn't enough food to go around, and despite the state attempting to prevent starvation conditions from happening, between the fact that the Soviet diplomatic relations with the rest of the world didn't allow them to import as much food as they might have liked, and the famine meaning there was also insufficient domestic production, people did starve. I would say it isn't that they weren't allowed to import food, but that the main Soviet export was in fact grain once that supply disappeared they didn't have anything to trade with the West (also at this point Soviet gold reserves were bottoming out). Interestingly enough, the Soviets started pushing oil production in the midst of the famine (January-April 1933) since they could get more value out of calories from oil workers geared toward exportation. The famine itself was rooted in the fact that local officials had deliberated downplayed the damage that an unusually hot August had on crops and by the time Moscow figured it out (October) it was way too late and all that could be done is rationing. I think ready parallels could be found in Wuhan or Chernobyl, where local party officials desperately tried to a giant problem (since they themselves were partly responsible) which made it a far bigger issue.
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Aug 4, 2020 19:51
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there's also been a strain of ukrainian nationalism that deliberately diminishes the kazakhstani famine of the same period in order to strengthen the argument that holodomor was an explicitly targeted event/program to genocide ukrainians as opposed to being a mixture of bad circumstances, poor decision making, and maybe some malice on the part of the central government
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Aug 4, 2020 20:19
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correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the people responsible for making the holodomor a thing Banderists?
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Aug 4, 2020 20:20
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im looking forward to future identitarian writers that are going to pose that covid-19 and the incompetent us response to it was in fact a targeted genocide of black and brown people as opposed to the class character of who is getting infected and dying from the disease (ie poor working people)
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Aug 4, 2020 20:28
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Optimus Subprime posted:im looking forward to future identitarian writers that are going to pose that covid-19 and the incompetent us response to it was in fact a targeted genocide of black and brown people as opposed to the class character of who is getting infected and dying from the disease (ie poor working people) The fact that most people responsible for turning a catastrophe into an atrocity were motivated by material greed doesn't mean that nobody was motivated by racism. And that is without going into the fact that the ruling class uses racism to convince parts of the working class into aligning with them. Doesn't matter if we are talking hungary, bengal or covid.
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Aug 4, 2020 20:37
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i think i've posted it in here before but the actual origin of "whataboutism" was an american diplomat blithely suggesting that the usa might nuke the ussr in order to free all the people enslaved by the soviet system, and a soviet diplomat responded like "hmm that's pretty rude, it's not as if i'm over here suggesting we invade you in order to put an end to all those lynchings" and the american was like ack!! whataboutism!!
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Aug 4, 2020 20:48
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Wheres the post here when someone said "In Amerika, saying lynching is bad is a logical fallacy" that was a funny post
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Aug 4, 2020 21:01
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Lady Militant posted:most of the people that talk about the holodomor a lot speak about it specifically as ethnic cleansing though; that's why I'm making the comparison to the way the U.S. government handled the native americans. i do not believe the soviets intended to ethnically cleanse ukraine, or kazakhstan or any of the regions affected. you don't need to be a tankie to believe this, it is an opinion most historians across the spectrum including extremely anti-communist ones like kotkin and robert conquest hold. it's a mainstream opinion that they've been trying to shunt to the wayside as the american propaganda apparatus + russia hysteria has ramped up in recent years. the soviets DID do ethnic cleansing on several other occasions with population transfers (poles, tartars, etc) so falling back on specifically the holdomor instead of using the clear and obvious historical examples is something that has grown out of the close links between the american state and ukrainian nationalists. mila kunis fucked around with this message at 21:08 on Aug 4, 2020 |
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Aug 4, 2020 21:05
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mila kunis posted:i do not believe the soviets intended to ethnically cleanse ukraine. you don't need to be a tankie to believe this, most historians across the spectrum including extremely anti-communist ones like kotkin and robert conquest. it's a mainstream opinion that they've been trying to shunt to the wayside as the american propaganda apparatus + russia hysteria has ramped up in recent years. Also, Ukrainian Nationalists. Edit: beaten in edit.
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Aug 4, 2020 21:07
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I read a book that talked about the holodomor a bunch, and they make a convincing case that in the 50s it was general knowledge even in America that it was just a famine that wasn’t managed well. ~30 years of propaganda and you have the Holodomor
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Aug 4, 2020 21:10
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The Stalin episode of revleft radio has a pretty good breakdown of the propaganda effort, starting with loving William Randolph Hearst making poo poo up and then the chain of writing citing debunked sources, etc.
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Aug 4, 2020 21:17
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VictualSquid posted:The fact that most people responsible for turning a catastrophe into an atrocity were motivated by material greed doesn't mean that nobody was motivated by racism. And that is without going into the fact that the ruling class uses racism to convince parts of the working class into aligning with them. yes, but what I am saying is that incorrect understandings of historical atrocities lets future people take away the wrong lessons from those historical occurrences and can at its worse be weaponized against correct interpretations of historical events ie the this entire holodomor conversation
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Aug 4, 2020 21:18
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V. Illych L. posted:well no, but a commitment to nojoe involves an affirmation of the importance of electoral politics - actively refusing to vote for a candidate necessarily assumes that such a vote would be meaningful in some sense, i.e. it's an electoralist strategy maybe I'm missing the thrust of the argument here, and I may be a beb idiot, but the whole nojoe thing seems predicated on the idea that the democratic party has to actually commit to earning people's vote through concrete policy proposals instead of just wailing and shrieking and scolding for it. on the other hand, if they were to actually commit to M4A and other leftwing policies, I don't know how many people who would then vote anyway, not wanting to once again be the Charlie Brown to the DNC's Lucy.
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Aug 4, 2020 21:24
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2016 cspam was full of people cheering the dnc candidate or trying to make peace with holding their nose 2020 cspam people are toxxing not to support the candidate at all people are sick of this poo poo lmao it's a funny barometer
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Aug 4, 2020 21:32
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cenotaph posted:The Stalin episode of revleft radio has a pretty good breakdown of the propaganda effort, starting with loving William Randolph Hearst making poo poo up and then the chain of writing citing debunked sources, etc. That episode tries too hard to totally absolve stalin of any responsibility imo. Parts were interesting, but it has a you must drink the Stalin koolaid feel.
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Aug 4, 2020 21:46
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Holodomor was definitely, in some part at least, an atrocity. The extent to which it was is hotly debated by all sorts of historians. I don't like to talk about it because it's such a gray area that anyone can credibly take a number of stances that cause others to be butthurt cuz they hold a different stance.
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Aug 4, 2020 21:59
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comedyblissoption posted:2016 cspam was full of people cheering the dnc candidate or trying to make peace with holding their nose what was lf I was too busy decorum poisoning myself in d&d back then
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Aug 4, 2020 22:04
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Centrist Committee posted:what was lf I was too busy decorum poisoning myself in d&d back then gung ho for ron paul
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Aug 4, 2020 22:58
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THS posted:gung ho for ron paul was typing "gay muslim maoists" and then i saw ur av
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Aug 4, 2020 23:45
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:i read an article from the CPUSA party boss a few months about the election and he told a story about talking to his mother in 1992 about why he wouldn't support clinton, and his mother would just say "you like bush." and she was an old black woman who had probably experienced all kinds of stuff. and then she fell ill and died in the hospital and her last words were "you like bush." and it's like, drat the wildest thing about this story is that george hw bush has been rehabilitated as a good, competent Republican since I can remember. i can't imagine a loyal democratic voter being that mad about someone supporting him
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Aug 5, 2020 00:45
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but what are you supposed to say?
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comedyblissoption posted:2016 cspam was full of people cheering the dnc candidate or trying to make peace with holding their nose 
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Aug 5, 2020 00:47
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not gonna lie if by some miracle markey's plan to give everyone 12k passes (it wont) i'm going to buy a gun
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Aug 5, 2020 00:52
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