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a neurotic ai posted:I'm not clairvoyant, but my suspicion is that if AoC is unable to cater to that kind of player (currently it seems like it isn't), it will die as it does not have the resources to sustain a feature set that is roughly 1.5x-2x as broad as most other MMOs. I think you're wrong and honestly everything you're saying is so far off base, it almost feels like you hate MMO's in general but at the same time you clearly don't want to see them change. If you genuinely just don't want to play MMO's that's totally fine but saying WQ's is good for the casual is the most laughable thing I've ever heard I just can't. I don't want to be rude but you're 100% wrong.
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Aug 4, 2020 04:38
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unrelated bad opinion: as a casual mmo player, the absolute last thing I want is any form of armory-esque lookup by others, any kind of logfile uploading or dps parsing
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Aug 4, 2020 07:55
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Biowarfare posted:unrelated opinion: as a casual mmo player, the absolute last thing I want is any form of armory-esque lookup by others, any kind of logfile uploading or dps parsing Nah you're right. Bring back the wonder and community.  They're peaking so early honestly, they should tone them back a little bit. Where do you even go from here? You end up making flying boats like WoW has.. hobocrunch fucked around with this message at 09:12 on Aug 4, 2020 |
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Aug 4, 2020 08:23
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hobocrunch posted:I think you're wrong and honestly everything you're saying is so far off base, it almost feels like you hate MMO's in general but at the same time you clearly don't want to see them change. If you genuinely just don't want to play MMO's that's totally fine but saying WQ's is good for the casual is the most laughable thing I've ever heard I just can't. I don't want to be rude but you're 100% wrong. I mean, I emphatically can’t be 100% wrong in this instance because I played during legion, got my legendaries from emissaries and mythic+, and was part of a group of players who enjoyed doing that stuff. We are still players enjoying an MMO, just in a different way. Maybe I’m wrong about it requiring those types of players to be a success, but the proof will be in the pudding soon enough.
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Aug 4, 2020 09:18
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I hate Gear Score. It used to be that your reputation followed you around. Oh hey, invite Soandso, they can tank like a beast. I remember fondly from EQ not inviting certain people in my level range to group because they sucked, and others because they were good and chill, but we had no gear score or DPS charts.
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Aug 4, 2020 20:58
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LuckyCat posted:I hate Gear Score. It used to be that your reputation followed you around. Oh hey, invite Soandso, they can tank like a beast. I remember fondly from EQ not inviting certain people in my level range to group because they sucked, and others because they were good and chill, but we had no gear score or DPS charts. It has since been replaced by IO score, based on an aggregation site that judges your performance per dungeon and aggregates your best. So if you're just getting rolling it doesn't matter how good your gear is (which probably won't be great to start with), you're not getting into any groups anyway because everybody wants SUPER ELITE SCORES ONLY, even for poo poo you could do blindfolded. 
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Aug 4, 2020 21:15
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If you think this game is going to attract a casual audience, you're pretty delusional. The population is going to be largely be sperglords who have too much time on their hands, with a rotating 30% population of core players who just wanna try something different before eventually moving onto something else. See for casual factors, I have something I call the Deskjob Test. It's an entirely meaningless based in no other proven facts. But since I've played MMOs for longer than some people who can now vote have been alive, and I've done some game design. It's clearly 100% infallible and the absolute arbiter of the TRUTH. The Deskjob Test is as following: Assuming you're working a boring deskjob where your supervisor doesn't really give a poo poo about what you do, but you generally need to step away 5-10 mins every hour or so do actual work. How playable is the multiplayer game? Then extending this rule. Assuming your work picked up and you couldn't play for a couple of weeks. How much was lost? On the supercasual side, we have mobile games like F/GO which have so little direct realtime interaction with others that they're basically singleplayer player. These kinds of games you can comfortably play at basically and deskjob. And outside of promotional events nothing is ever lost. On the hyperhardcore side you get games like HnH or Salem. Where not only is stepping away or being distracted likely to end with character death, the perma death and harsh PvP (and even PvE) ruleset can result in permanent loss large amounts of progression. Not playing for some time can lead to even greater losses. In the middle you actually get games like EVE, which while having certain aspects of the game that suffer from the hyperhardcore-levels of reprocussions. But you don't actually have to engage in them to play the game. I personally for played an entirely separate EVE game while I was working at uni on my alt accounts than on my main. Where on my alt accounts I just sat all, day-trading and speculating in Jira/Amarr while shitposting in chat and trying to scam people. So long as your assets are mostly liquid or something stable, taking a few weeks break doesn't hurt you (can actually benefit you if you accidentally crashed a market you're holding). Given the information we have so far, the game's direction does not seem to well suited for short, frequent, and immediate disruptions during play (due to open world pvp nature of the world and seemingly minimal gameplay options that don't expose you to it). Nor does it seem particularly palatable to infrequent but prolonged absences from the game (due to maintenance grinding requirements). Ergo, this game would absolutely not be playable for most people at their deskjob, and therefore likely not have any casual appeal.
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Aug 5, 2020 04:12
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Interesting analysis. The relevant question then becomes, imo, is the game viable without that more casual user base?
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Aug 5, 2020 09:47
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a neurotic ai posted:Interesting analysis. The relevant question then becomes, imo, is the game viable without that more casual user base? By interesting do you mean "Literally didn't analyse a single thing and it's all opinion" based on the information given on a game that hasn't even got it's gameplay working yet, all the while ignoring things such as "player owned restaurants" and touting that the game won't have a casual playerbase AND in the same breath calling EVE a middleground game on that spectrum.
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Aug 5, 2020 10:03
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hobocrunch posted:By interesting do you mean "Literally didn't analyse a single thing and it's all opinion" based on the information given on a game that hasn't even got it's gameplay working yet, all the while ignoring things such as "player owned restaurants" and touting that the game won't have a casual playerbase AND in the same breath calling EVE a middleground game on that spectrum. It is a middle ground on that spectrum dude. It has a learning curve like a brick wall, but it certainly doesn’t require much time from you to play it. The opinion, supported by his (subjective) analysis, is that this game will not have casual players. But hey, if you want to nail your colours to the mast this hard then go right ahead. I pointed out something very similar to a wild star dev once and got a similarly scoffed reaction.
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Aug 5, 2020 10:57
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SweetBro posted:If you think this game is going to attract a casual audience, you're pretty delusional. The population is going to be largely be sperglords who have too much time on their hands, with a rotating 30% population of core players who just wanna try something different before eventually moving onto something else. Its hard to compare a game that's not out to one that is, but comparatively if AoC launches with what it states it will. Wouldn't you say crafting/maintaining your home plot be the draw in for casual players? I draw comparisons to BDO where you have folks who just do the crafting empire and not focus on the grinding/pvp aspect of the game?
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Aug 5, 2020 20:01
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Hy_C posted:Its hard to compare a game that's not out to one that is, but comparatively if AoC launches with what it states it will. Wouldn't you say crafting/maintaining your home plot be the draw in for casual players? I draw comparisons to BDO where you have folks who just do the crafting empire and not focus on the grinding/pvp aspect of the game? Some people absolutely love this aspect of customization in Final Fantasy XIV (and boy I saw some VERY impressive houses in that game)
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Aug 5, 2020 20:22
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If a node is reset arent all the freelands and houses lost?
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Aug 5, 2020 22:47
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doomisland posted:If a node is reset arent all the freelands and houses lost? The houses are. The freeholds might be. If another nearby node's zone of influence expands (due to the destruction of the freehold's original node) far enough to cover the area where that freehold is, it stays. If not, it goes. Space Monster fucked around with this message at 00:45 on Aug 6, 2020 |
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Aug 5, 2020 23:21
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Can we just wait for the beta at least before typing up those type of posts. I'm not really on any side of the fence yet, the game is barely even a game yet, and right now it's literally just Steven speaking. On another topic. So who bought their Snail mount. I didn't, just curious though.
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Aug 6, 2020 00:42
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Hy_C posted:Its hard to compare a game that's not out to one that is, but comparatively if AoC launches with what it states it will. Wouldn't you say crafting/maintaining your home plot be the draw in for casual players? I draw comparisons to BDO where you have folks who just do the crafting empire and not focus on the grinding/pvp aspect of the game? BDO is fundamentally different because it doesn't include non-consensual PvP (or at least, it's super easy to avoid). The reason why you can run a crafting empire like that is because so long as you don't get to the soft cap (55?) world pvp doesn't get enabled for you. Players can't influence you ourside of the market. You also don't necesarrily need to upkeep your crafting empire. I may be wrong (it's been a while since I played BDO) but there aren't massive maintance fees you constantly have to pay due to limited spaces since multiple players can "own" the same building. I would say that given my understanding of how the mechanics of the home plots work, not only are the buildings non-instanced (even apartments which are instanced are still tied to a non-instanced structure) meaning scarcity causes value to skyrocket meaning that the "tax rate" should be quite high (otherwise you get an ArchAge situation), but also since they're all vulnerable to destruction due to their "node system". Being away from a couple of weeks could mean coming back to the ruins of your house. Like in HnH and Salem. This is also pretty different from FFXIV where you basically have no risk of losing your house. hobocrunch posted:Can we just wait for the beta at least before typing up those type of posts. I'm not really on any side of the fence yet, the game is barely even a game yet, and right now it's literally just Steven speaking.
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Aug 6, 2020 03:51
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SweetBro posted:I would say that given my understanding of how the mechanics of the home plots work, not only are the buildings non-instanced (even apartments which are instanced are still tied to a non-instanced structure) meaning scarcity causes value to skyrocket meaning that the "tax rate" should be quite high (otherwise you get an ArchAge situation), but also since they're all vulnerable to destruction due to their "node system". Being away from a couple of weeks could mean coming back to the ruins of your house. Like in HnH and Salem. I think there were a few different planned methods of loss-prevention stated to mitigate stuff like this. Unless I'm misremembering what I've heard, getting evicted is planned to result in all your furniture getting mailed to you along with a saved copy of your layout. That seems like the right kind of approach for not scaring casuals away from that part of the game, and it seems like they intend to extend that to other parts of the game when they can considering the low death penalties from PvP rather than something crazy hardcore like universal player free-looting. From what I've seen so far, it seems like the game is probably past 'obvious scam' territory, but I also see no reason to assume it's going to be a crazy hit when the vast majority of public knowledge about the game is just devs reading off their design docs. I'd like to be pleasantly surprised, but I don't yet expect any more than the standard mediocre MMO launch that leads into a free-to-play spiral after a few months.
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Aug 6, 2020 04:40
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frajaq posted:Some people absolutely love this aspect of customization in Final Fantasy XIV (and boy I saw some VERY impressive houses in that game) Literally every moment of my time in EverQuest 2 was dedicated to my house. If I was leveling, it's because I needed to survive in zones with better wood to craft a better chair. If I was in a dungeon it's because a recipe dropped there, or a rare material. If I was trading on the auction house, it was to earn platinum to pay the ludicrous rent on some megamansion. I only played for like 6 months, but I don't think I've ever had that level of dedication to anything else in my entire life. I eventually just had the biggest house with the coolest poo poo and rarest trophies I could find. I still had a lot of content left in the game, but there was nothing left for my house. I distinctly remember my final weeks, planning out incredibly mundane details because all the major work was done. Just adding clutter in areas to make them look a little more lived in and a little less like I had built it in a game, like finding a book because it had a special cover color so it would look nice in that stack by the fireplace. I remember I went to Karana, I got a piece of fruit I could add as a clutter item, I leaned it up against a bowl in the main dining hall. I was like "Alright, that looks about done." and never logged in again. There was absolutely nothing left to do, the house was done, and thus the game. But it's really hard for a house to be a draw for a casual player. Making a Cool House is pretty easy, but as a casual player in every game thus far, you rapidly run out of options for creativity. In order to open up cool building choices, you typically have to do something very difficult to gain access to materials, plans, trophies, drops, etc. Not to mention that just decorating and building in and of itself is extremely time consuming and actually takes a lot of practice to get good at.
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Aug 6, 2020 16:10
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Free Realms had the coolest player housing. I miss that game that was admittedly marketed to 12 year olds.
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Aug 6, 2020 21:37
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Vincent Valentine posted:There was absolutely nothing left to do, the house was done, and thus the game. That's honestly the saddest story I've ever heard.
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Aug 6, 2020 22:15
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I can't be bothered to check if I've already said this yet but those mounts are just so unbelievably ugly and tacky looking. They don't look like a part of the world at all and just stick out from every backdrop or landscape I've seen them in so far. It looks like they took inspiration from my grandmother's parlor room with hideous multicolored glass "conversation pieces" where everything was covered in plastic and nobody was ever allowed inside.
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Aug 6, 2020 22:40
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It's gonna look like that scene from Ace Ventura 2 but with people riding all the animals and instead of a jungle itll be some arabian desert outpost
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Aug 6, 2020 22:53
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Sachant posted:I can't be bothered to check if I've already said this yet but those mounts are just so unbelievably ugly and tacky looking. They don't look like a part of the world at all and just stick out from every backdrop or landscape I've seen them in so far. It looks like they took inspiration from my grandmother's parlor room with hideous multicolored glass "conversation pieces" where everything was covered in plastic and nobody was ever allowed inside. I don't think the models are bad. Hell even some of the good animations are pretty good ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8M68S6DEfw ). I think it's just a combination of mismatched theme mostly (probably because the game's theme is "generic fantasy" and that basically covers everything and anything). Things look out of place because either we can't see where they're meant to exist or they're just literally not meant to exist in the universe. There are some animations that are just horrible / unfinished though, I do admit. (Like the Dragon in that 4k footage from last month) hobocrunch fucked around with this message at 23:38 on Aug 6, 2020 |
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Aug 6, 2020 23:34
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I'm just looking here at the last stream they did (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkwaYLOuw2s&t=4020s) and how unbelievably gaudy and tasteless some of them look. They look like happy meal toys. You're right about mismatched theme though. The entire game looks like they have four different art directors that have never even exchanged a word with one another.
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Aug 6, 2020 23:57
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Sachant posted:I'm just looking here at the last stream they did (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkwaYLOuw2s&t=4020s) and how unbelievably gaudy and tasteless some of them look. They look like happy meal toys. You're right about mismatched theme though. The entire game looks like they have four different art directors that have never even exchanged a word with one another. I think it's mostly the flying mounts ruining it all. That's not to say that they couldn't totally clean up the netcode either. I'm watching the daystrider and bear videos and I think they're mostly fine. There's something so jank about the movement though, so much sliding and jitterness going on in this video. Also wish they'd just remove the collision detection- I think this has a lot to do with why they can't "fake" what other players are doing as much as we'd want. (In the sense that they have to be exactly where they are at all times) hobocrunch fucked around with this message at 00:32 on Aug 7, 2020 |
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Aug 7, 2020 00:18
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hobocrunch posted:That's honestly the saddest story I've ever heard. I built great bases in fallout 76 and stopped playing for similar reasons to EQ2. An infinitely sadder story, for your collection.
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Aug 7, 2020 00:46
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WildStar had a really, really good housing system. Shame about all the everything else.
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Aug 7, 2020 01:45
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Vincent Valentine posted:I built great bases in fallout 76 and stopped playing for similar reasons to EQ2. An infinitely sadder story, for your collection. You ever take any screenshots of your house in EQ2?
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Aug 7, 2020 04:26
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bear looks cool and good. daystrider I could learn to love. griffons look dumb and bad. game looks better than I expected actually.
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Aug 7, 2020 05:46
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cmdrk posted:bear looks cool and good. ^ Game looks visually alright. A bunch of obvious bugs, but I won't hold bugs against a game in development.
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Aug 7, 2020 07:56
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Sachant posted:I'm just looking here at the last stream they did (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkwaYLOuw2s&t=4020s) and how unbelievably gaudy and tasteless some of them look. They look like happy meal toys. You're right about mismatched theme though. The entire game looks like they have four different art directors that have never even exchanged a word with one another. why would anyone play this laggy janky rear end game that will run like absolute poo poo when they could just hop on warzone, CS Go, fortnite or league and get a much better competitive experience? this game looks like some sperg's game design document from the 2000s. it reminds me of darkfall. back in the day you had a lot of casuals trying out all kinds of MMOs because there wasn't anywhere near the level of competition in the online game marketplace that there is now. like someone else ITT already said, the only people who will play this are the kind of MMO players who use the term care bear unironically and make threads about how, logically, rape should be a mechanic in the game. The Ol Spicy Keychain fucked around with this message at 13:01 on Aug 7, 2020 |
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Aug 7, 2020 12:55
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The Ol Spicy Keychain posted:why would anyone play this laggy janky rear end game that will run like absolute poo poo when they could just hop on warzone, CS Go, fortnite or league and get a much better competitive experience? this game looks like some sperg's game design document from the 2000s. This game is likely to be bad but I feel the market for "Social space fantasy MMO" is not the sort of people who want to sweat in a warzone match. Like Fortnite honestly might be the closest competitor for the whole "Want to PVP but also gently caress about"
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Aug 7, 2020 13:05
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I hope this game turns out good. The fact they know exactly what they want to implement and have promised not to feature-creep make me pretty sure that it'll at least get released but I refuse to get my hopes up that it'll actually be a fun game to play.
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Aug 7, 2020 14:52
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I'm still pretty skeeved about all of these "only 10 players in the game will have this!" features I keep learning about. This sounds like some bored millionaire ant colony game where he just wants a fantasy world in which to lord over everyone else with his hideous personally exclusive bear-butterfly mount.
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Aug 7, 2020 16:13
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Sachant posted:sounds like some bored millionaire ant colony game where he just wants a fantasy world in which to lord over everyone else with his hideous personally exclusive bear-butterfly mount. That's because it is.
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Aug 8, 2020 00:51
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Sachant posted:I'm still pretty skeeved about all of these "only 10 players in the game will have this!" features I keep learning about. The player base genuinely believes that it isn't a gateway to more. They say it will just be 10-15 but there's no way that number hasn't doubled maybe by the 2 year point just through content additions or what have you.
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Aug 8, 2020 03:04
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hobocrunch posted:The player base genuinely believes that it isn't a gateway to more. They say it will just be 10-15 but there's no way that number hasn't doubled maybe by the 2 year point just through content additions or what have you. It's silly, but none of this crap is gamebreaking for me.
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Aug 8, 2020 05:59
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Space Monster posted:It's silly, but none of this crap is gamebreaking for me. I'm on the no flying mount side. I'll copy a post from reddit: WildlyNormal posted:Here is a short list: TLDR: It basically just makes the MMO feel less like an MMO for the sake of people being able to go into the sky. It's not really worth it. Basically if you're going to put flying mounts into your game they need to be in there from the get go and they need to have the entire game designed around it- Because like fundamentally we're all playing an MMO to at least have interactions with other players for the most part. It's no longer fun if those are few and far between. hobocrunch fucked around with this message at 07:31 on Aug 8, 2020 |
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Aug 8, 2020 07:28
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Didnt one of the WoW design leads even admit that flying mounts were a mistake?
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Aug 8, 2020 08:31
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Ghostcrawler, and they were a ~mistake~ because it meant they had to get more creative than put 1000 mobs in the path of players and their next 200 quest objectives so no. It was a convenient excuse for their increasingly grindy design though, and they brought them back in the most passive aggressive way because players actually didn't but any of those "reasons" and stopped playing the game. This Reddit post is hilariously stupid. Lore is made up, you can make up reasons for/against flying mounts. MMO/social interaction doesn't mean you have to "interact" with others every single second you're online, you get plenty of socializing in content where you actually have to do more than go from A to B. Flying mounts are a solved problem if you want to solve it - you can simply lock them out in content where you don't want them, like raids/dungeons or even PvP areas (lore friendly excuse possible but not required), you can limit them in creative ways (eg. in Guild Wars 2 the ability of flying mounts to gain altitude at will is limited so the designers can simply create a landscape where you can't get enough momentum/height to cross certain elevations and have to take ground paths), if you want to be super elaborate you can even make them an integral part of the game if you want to bother with mounted combat somehow. But yeah if your MMO relies on players going long distances through areas densely populated with aggressive ground creatures, you probably shouldn't just put in big eagles people can use to fly everywhere at any time. E: That's not a "mistake" it's just a design challenge. orcane fucked around with this message at 11:21 on Aug 8, 2020 |
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Aug 8, 2020 11:10
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