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The bulk of a lease is paying for depreciation you'd pay for no matter what. By leasing the finance company is making a bet regarding the amount of future depreciation and sometimes they win and sometimes they lose. Generally, this is not a great deal but there are certainly times it makes sense. I think EVs in particular are attractive from a lease vs. purchase standpoint because the tech is changing so fast and the depreciation is catastrophic. There are so many variables though especially with tax incentives etc it's hard to get a handle on. This thread had me looking at used e-trons and I-paces around here and there are a lot with almost no miles on them for $20K+ off MSRP. The local Jag dealership is advertising new I-Paces at $20K off alone which is gonna crush resale. There's a 2019 HSE which had an MSRP close to $90,000 listed for $55,000 and it only has 3,000 miles.
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Aug 9, 2020 22:00
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SpaceCadetBob posted:From a pure financial viewpoint, leases are still terrible. Leases are a lot better than buying a new car every 3 years and at certain times better than even a 10 year old Toyota. Bolt leases for example can be free or even cash positive due to numerous incentives, heavy dealer discounting, and artificially inflated residuals.
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Aug 9, 2020 22:09
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MrYenko posted:A lot of minor services can handled by Tesla mobile service techs, which is pretty nifty. Also, I know it feels cool, but please to the OP rethink the purchase as there have been so many QC problems with the vehicle (and the infamous image of a Y getting rear-ended, resulting in the 3rd row becoming paste and the passenger front seat pretzeling) that safety would be a big concern for me and my family.
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Aug 9, 2020 22:10
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Gamesguy posted:Leases are a lot better than buying a new car every 3 years and at certain times better than even a 10 year old Toyota. Nfcknblvbl posted:It’s also terrible to buy and sell cars every 3 years. Some folks like new cars. This wouldn’t work for me since I do plenty of road trips, and I’d go way over the allowed mileage. Buying a new car every three years is also terrible from a purely financial viewpoint! Modern cars can last a decade without basically any degradation in quality. Hell we just finally got rid of our 2009 elantra, and it still felt like a new car. Like, you guys can do you, but there really is no debate that leases are frequently used as a predatory lending tool against people who don't know what they are getting themselves in to. Leases for petit bourgeoisie luxury cars are fine though, those guys can afford to be fleeced.
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Aug 9, 2020 22:20
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EVs are pretty much the main use case where it makes sense to lease. Leases are heavily subsidized, you qualify for all kinds of other incentive money from fed/state/local, and you are not locked in to the current tech. You also are generating a used EV for someone to purchase at a lower price point in 24/36 months if you care about such things.
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Aug 9, 2020 22:23
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A dealership just told me the 8k federal incentives and 6k bc scrap it program don't apply towards a 3 year lease. So at minimum, I'm caught between leasing for 5 years or just financing the car. Personally, I feel a bit nervous about holding onto a 2020 electric car after 5 or 7 years, but with an 8 year battery warranty I suppose it's not bad?
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Aug 9, 2020 22:36
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I'm almost positive your dealer is lying to you. Nothing on SCRAP-IT site indicates that leases would not be allowed (and that a five year lease would qualify but a three year lease would not). Why don't you contact SCRAP-IT and find out? Also - the fed money stuff is bullshit. Yes, you don't get the tax credit. The captive finance arm gets the tax credit and at least in the US that is used to offset your capitalized cost for the lease. You get the money, just indirectly.
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Aug 9, 2020 22:56
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:I'm almost positive your dealer is lying to you. Nothing on SCRAP-IT site indicates that leases would not be allowed (and that a five year lease would qualify but a three year lease would not). Why don't you contact SCRAP-IT and find out? Also if you pay amt it is the only way to get it.
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Aug 10, 2020 01:14
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Big Taint posted:GM making a new EV subsidiary to lure those hot VC bucks and naming it after one of their defunct brands is very dumb and extremely possible. Buick has negative value when placed on any car.
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Aug 10, 2020 01:36
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:EVs are pretty much the main use case where it makes sense to lease. Leases are heavily subsidized, you qualify for all kinds of other incentive money from fed/state/local, and you are not locked in to the current tech. You also are generating a used EV for someone to purchase at a lower price point in 24/36 months if you care about such things. I'm super happy someone leased my Leaf for 24 months, since it let me buy the car in cash, and it's basically indistinguishable from a brand new car. It was pretty funny to see like 20+ 2017 Leafs with 19,XXX miles on them all parked next to each other though.
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Aug 10, 2020 02:37
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I chose to lease my Model 3 even though I normally just pay cash for my vehicles. The main reason why I chose to lease an EV whereas I wouldn't lease a gasoline car is that (1) I am not yet convinced of the longevity of current EVs compared to gas cars which are mature and for which understand the life cycle and post warranty costs much better; (2) EVs are still evolving and are getting better and significant improvements could kill the resale value of the Model 3 in 5 years as well as drive me to want to upgrade the vehicle; (3) the improving but still iffy build quality of Teslas and (4) the incentives like the state rebate and tax exemption also apply to leases. Currently the residual on my lease means that I am effectively subsidizing Elon's future fleet of self driving Model 3 taxis since current high resale values on Model 3s means that the residual is too low. However, I'm willing to pay that based on what I feel about future resale risk given future EVs and improving battery, motor quality and driving assists. The Model 3 is essentially a pilot project for me to try out an EV for a few years to decide on viability of moving more fully to EVs and currently I'm not interested in owning a Model 3 for 14 or so years like my Lexus before it. Because of all the EV incentives I am paying a little less than $17,600 over the term of a 3 year lease on a LR AWD Model 3 with the extra cost paint option (not even accounting for the lower charging costs versus gasoline) which while not cheap is acceptable to me. Yuns fucked around with this message at 05:28 on Aug 10, 2020 |
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Aug 10, 2020 05:16
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Yuns posted:I chose to lease my Model 3 even though I normally just pay cash for my vehicles. The main reason why I chose to lease an EV whereas I wouldn't lease a gasoline car is that (1) I am not yet convinced of the longevity of current EVs compared to gas cars which are mature and for which understand the life cycle and post warranty costs much better; (2) EVs are still evolving and are getting better and significant improvements could kill the resale value of the Model 3 in 5 years as well as drive me to want to upgrade the vehicle; (3) the improving but still iffy build quality of Teslas and (4) the incentives like the state rebate and tax exemption also apply to leases. Currently the residual on my lease means that I am effectively subsidizing Elon's future fleet of self driving Model 3 taxis since current high resale values on Model 3s means that the residual is too low. However, I'm willing to pay that based on what I feel about future resale risk given future EVs and improving battery, motor quality and driving assists. The Model 3 is essentially a pilot project for me to try out an EV for a few years to decide on viability of moving more fully to EVs and currently I'm not interested in owning a Model 3 for 14 or so years like my Lexus before it. The great thing about leases is if you have equity at the end of the lease you can just buy it out!
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Aug 10, 2020 05:23
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heated game moment posted:The great thing about leases is if you have equity at the end of the lease you can just buy it out!
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Aug 10, 2020 05:25
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SpaceCadetBob posted:Buying a new car every three years is also terrible from a purely financial viewpoint! Modern cars can last a decade without basically any degradation in quality. Hell we just finally got rid of our 2009 elantra, and it still felt like a new car. Something like 75% of luxury cars are leased, leasing makes more financial sense than buying every 3 years because of sales tax(you only pay it on the lease payment in most states) and because manufacturers often artificially boost the residual of leased vehicles. You also don't have to worry about things like accidents, selling the car, fluctuating used car values, etc. If you're smart about hunting for incentives and flexible about the vehicle selection, it is very possible to lease a new car for less than the ownership cost of even a 10 year old elantra. Right now Bolts can literally be had for negative money, as in you will get paid to lease a Bolt. Sub-$100 leases also come up every year. EVs especially make a lot of sense to lease because the residual values on EV leases are basically made up nonsense. For example GM Financial says the Chevy Bolt will be worth 53% of its MSRP after 3 years/36k miles when you can buy a brand new Bolt for 70% of MSRP before government incentives and for as low as 25% of MSRP after incentives(none of which apply on a used EV). Under these circumstances why would you ever buy a new(or even used, look up used leaf prices) EV when the manufacturer's leasing company is happy to give you a massive discount by inflating the residual? Gamesguy fucked around with this message at 09:14 on Aug 10, 2020 |
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Aug 10, 2020 09:00
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Leasing is pretty much good for everyone except the increasingly rare buy-new-and-drive-til-it-dies people. The people who want to pay a premium for a new car and want to change it every few years get to do so with little hassle in return for a slight premium, the people who want to Make The Smart Buy and Buy Used or who cannot afford a new car now have a huge supply of late model off-lease cars and the dealer gets to turn used units which is where the money is anyway. The funny thing now is that there are leases on CPO cars so you get two turns on the lease roulette wheel because some people who are buying three year old cars want the same experience as the new vehicle lessees.
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Aug 10, 2020 13:13
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Hyundai is going to continue launching Ioniq as its own sub-brand with 3 more models. Ioniq 5 in early 2021, the Ioniq 6 in 2022, and the Ioniq 7 in early 2024. The Ioniq 5 is a crossover based on the Hyundai 45 concept, the Ioniq 6 is a sedan based on the Hyundai Prophecy concept, and the Ioniq 7 is an SUV. https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a33546876/hyundai-ioniq-brand-electric-cars/
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Aug 10, 2020 15:29
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I like that GM is running headlong in to this with the -iq Cadillac EV naming strategy
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Aug 10, 2020 16:08
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I wonder if the new Ioniq vehicles will be on a shared platform like the existing one or if they'll be 100% EV.
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Aug 10, 2020 16:13
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Is anyone planning to build an electric cargo van in the US? Even something the size of transit connect will do, but ideally full size
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Aug 10, 2020 16:19
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There is an EV Transit in Ford's product pipeline. Arrival is also supposedly building vans for UPS. edit2: there is evidently an EV NV200 but I'm not sure if you can actually go buy one. KYOON GRIFFEY JR fucked around with this message at 17:07 on Aug 10, 2020 |
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Aug 10, 2020 16:36
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Nfcknblvbl posted:I wonder if the new Ioniq vehicles will be on a shared platform like the existing one or if they'll be 100% EV. "The Ioniq brand vehicles, the automaker said, will ride on the Electric Global Modular Platform, or E-GMP, suggesting that this modular platform will be expanded across various vehicle sizes and shape" Sounds like a platform specifically for EVs. Really interested in their offerings but can they source the batteries? That was the hold up when I was looking for a KIA E-Niro, they said it would be a 6-8 month wait at best and did everything in their power to push me towards an ICE model instead.
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Aug 10, 2020 16:46
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The E-GMP (I keep wanting to pronounce it e-gimp) will be Hyundai's and Kia's shared platform for their EVs. The batteries are apparently coming from SK Innovation.
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Aug 10, 2020 16:51
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The VW E-bus might fit that bill. Depends how modular they make it.
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Aug 10, 2020 17:16
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:
Is this because cars are so expensive that off-lease cars are still sitting on lots?
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Aug 10, 2020 17:16
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stevobob posted:Is this because cars are so expensive that off-lease cars are still sitting on lots? It's definitely related to the cost of cars, but it's not like there's a tremendous amount of used inventory sitting on lots. It's still pretty limited and mostly a premium brand thing for CPO'd cars.
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Aug 10, 2020 17:23
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:The funny thing now is that there are leases on CPO cars so you get two turns on the lease roulette wheel because some people who are buying three year old cars want the same experience as the new vehicle lessees. This is depressing. 
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Aug 10, 2020 17:46
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I was thinking the other day about those PSA ads showing the amount of sugar in a can/bottle of soda. Usually stacks of sugar cubes, or sometimes measuring cups, but you get the idea. I feel they're pretty effective in getting people to look at how much sugar they're actually consuming and maybe change their mind about drinking soda at all, or at least reduce the frequency of drinking them. I wondered if the same thing could be done to illustrate just how much gas people burn for commuting. For most of us, the amount of gas we put in the tank is just an abstract number displayed on the pump, and a less important one than the price. My commute right now is about 100km round trip (it's slightly less, but let's go with that). My car is pretty fuel efficient, getting around 5l/100km. If imagined pouring 5 liters (1.3 gallons) of gas in a pail and setting it on fire every morning. It's a pretty striking visualization. And then you figure that 10l/100km is a lot more common a fuel economy figure... Picture pouring 5 2l soda bottles worth if gas into a bucket and setting it on fire in your driveway every morning. It's kinda hosed up. I wonder if that kind of PSA ad would be effective in getting people to consider hybrids, PHEVs, and pure EVs more.
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Aug 10, 2020 18:03
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I went to look at e-trons this afternoon, poking around in it in the garage it seems like a really nice car. Gonna do a test drive soon and check out the 50 vs the 55. Never leased anything before but the deal on these things seems like a no brainer. A nicely specced 50 sportback is Fr340 a month (1 CHF = 1 USD) for a 24 month lease, and a 55 with the same spec is about 500. The main question is whether to wait for the e-tron GT next year, but I think it may be too $ and maybe best to give it a year or two for them to iron out any issues.
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Aug 10, 2020 18:07
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Westy543 posted:This is depressing. I can at least spin it kind of positively and say that new cars are extraordinarily reliable, last a long time, and are very safe and full of features compared to earlier cars, so honestly churning through 3 year off lease cars is probably not a bad ownership experience. You can also frame it that for most of history cars were highly disposable and now they are less so! progress! i'm not sure how well I am doing at making myself believe this!
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Aug 10, 2020 18:27
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:edit2: there is evidently an EV NV200 but I'm not sure if you can actually go buy one. You can get those in Europe, they are not that expensive. Italian prices start at 31500€ Also FCA has a electric variant of the ducato(the ram promaster) that should launch soon if you feel daring. SlowBloke fucked around with this message at 18:39 on Aug 10, 2020 |
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Aug 10, 2020 18:36
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Even though I could never afford it in my lifetime and although it's completely ridiculous, I still can't wait to see what Lotus does with the Lotus Evija (about 2000 hp and 3858 lbs). I trust Porsche and Lotus to know how to make EVs that are good at cornering, but I'm not sure that Lotus will be even to match Tesla levels of build quality. But it's the kind of halo car that'll make kids dream of owning one.
Yuns fucked around with this message at 19:53 on Aug 10, 2020 |
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Aug 10, 2020 19:49
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Yuns posted:I'm not sure that Lotus will be even to match Tesla levels of build quality. Outside making a good battery and drive train setup, I don't think Tesla's held up to high quality standards.
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Aug 10, 2020 20:03
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Nfcknblvbl posted:Outside making a good battery and drive train setup, I don't think Tesla's held up to high quality standards.
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Aug 10, 2020 20:07
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Yuns posted:If anyone can beat Tesla on bad build quality it will be Lotus. Is lotus still british? If so it’s a slam dunk 
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Aug 10, 2020 20:08
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SlowBloke posted:You can get those in Europe, they are not that expensive. Italian prices start at 31500€ They are kinda common in Sweden for parcel delivery companies. Renault also has something similar which is electric.
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Aug 10, 2020 20:34
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ClassH posted:It is in a gm service document that was posted by a bolt technician. Link is now dead however. pun pundit posted:Yes, long term storage procedures for EVs are all about protecting the traction battery. That procedure explicitly had you discharge the traction battery to "two bars", whatever that means, and the traction battery won't maintain the 12V when it's below 40%. This was probably chosen to coincide with this storage discharge so you don't drain down the traction battery in storage. Thanks. I'll keep that bookmarked for the Second Wave.
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Aug 10, 2020 20:58
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Yuns posted:Even though I could never afford it in my lifetime and although it's completely ridiculous, I still can't wait to see what Lotus does with the Lotus Evija (about 2000 hp and 3858 lbs). I trust Porsche and Lotus to know how to make EVs that are good at cornering, but I'm not sure that Lotus will be even to match Tesla levels of build quality. But it's the kind of halo car that'll make kids dream of owning one. edit: quoting a post I already quoted so Nfcknblvbl sees it. Nfcknblvbl posted:Uh, what the heck? I can cruise at 70 mph with cruise control on for 100+ miles and fast charge for 20 minutes and repeat. This Ego can do long trips, man. CannonFodder fucked around with this message at 22:33 on Aug 10, 2020 |
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Aug 10, 2020 22:30
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stevobob posted:Is this because cars are so expensive that off-lease cars are still sitting on lots? There's a certain demographic that instead of leasing a new car every 2-3 years, buys a CPO car every 3 years because they think they're saving money. Manufacturers want to capture that demo and build brand loyalty. Buyers don't want to pay the sales tax on the whole vehicle and deal with trade in, it's a win-win.
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Aug 11, 2020 02:03
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I kinda think Nikola is vapourware ATM but I'd say this seems likely. https://finance.yahoo.com/news/tesla-rival-nikola-scores-deal-to-make-thousands-of-1000-horsepower-electric-garbage-trucks-130025051.html Garabge trucks able to burn off sports cars would be hilarious.
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Aug 11, 2020 03:37
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CAT INTERCEPTOR posted:I kinda think Nikola is vapourware ATM but I'd say this seems likely. Nikola has a warehouse with a pile of used Tesla batteries and a single peterbilt ev/hydrogen conversion. They have no factory and about 1/10th of the cash needed to start producing vehicles. Their founder spends all day on Twitter/Instagram pretending to be a dollar store Elon Musk but with no charisma. They will never release a vehicle. The whole thing was a pump and dump scam to inflate the values during a stock merger. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 11, 2020 04:27
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