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chiasaur11 posted:However, the AEUG has a lot of popular support within the Federation ranks, so it's functionally a cold civil war that gets hot whenever the Titans and the AEUG both show up. Some people in the show even estimate it's a roughly fifty fifty split. Going off of that, aren’t the majority of the AEUG members we see in Zeta either ex-Federation, including some ex-Titans like Emma or civilians? Like, a few people have mentioned ex-Zeons being involved in the AEUG, but IIRC the only ones are Char (Where I think Quattro’s cover story has him as EFSF?), and maybe Roberto and Apolly (Although the latter certain seems shocked when Char eventually outs himself). I don’t know if the side stories and other works are filling the AEUG with Zeon, I haven’t kept up with that stuff in a while, but the series made it seem like the vast majority of the AEUG had connections to the Feds, making it more of a civil war against the Titans.
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Aug 9, 2020 03:35
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Endorph posted:Stardust Memory was obviously made after Zeta in real life, but inuniverse it does a lot to explain why the Titans got so much political power. Zeon Remnants stole a freaking nuke, that's a pretty easy card to play to get people to stop asking questions about your methods. I'm gonna say the colony drop that destroyed the middle of North America played more of a part in the Titans coming to power than stealing that nuke did.
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Aug 9, 2020 03:48
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Ethiser posted:I'm gonna say the colony drop that destroyed the middle of North America played more of a part in the Titans coming to power than stealing that nuke did. I guess that comes down to whether the Earth Federation government valued the millions of civilians who died in the colony drop more than they valued the portion of the fleet destroyed by the nuke.
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Aug 9, 2020 03:50
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it's the federation so i'm willing to be incredibly cynical
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Aug 9, 2020 03:56
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The nuke was *their* nuke also
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Aug 9, 2020 04:02
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fartknocker posted:Going off of that, aren’t the majority of the AEUG members we see in Zeta either ex-Federation, including some ex-Titans like Emma or civilians? Like, a few people have mentioned ex-Zeons being involved in the AEUG, but IIRC the only ones are Char (Where I think Quattro’s cover story has him as EFSF?), and maybe Roberto and Apolly (Although the latter certain seems shocked when Char eventually outs himself). I don’t know if the side stories and other works are filling the AEUG with Zeon, I haven’t kept up with that stuff in a while, but the series made it seem like the vast majority of the AEUG had connections to the Feds, making it more of a civil war against the Titans. The leader and founder of the AEUG was authorized to speak at the Federation parliament until the day he died. There's some ex-Zeon personnel involved, and more added in (and retconned in) with later material, but the core of the movement is Feddies with spacenoid sympathies. (And, of course, Anaheim Electronics.)
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Aug 9, 2020 04:04
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Nessus posted:Your assessment of Zeta thus far is accurate. There's a reason why I describe the Federation after the OYW as being dead already, they just don't realize it yet
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Aug 9, 2020 04:05
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I was under the impression Titan basically was the de-facto power in charge of the federation government up until amuro joined karbara and char addressed the world at dakar.
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Aug 9, 2020 05:08
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Stairmaster posted:I was under the impression Titan basically was the de-facto power in charge of the federation government up until amuro joined karbara and char addressed the world at dakar. They weren't. Char at Dakar was addressing the Federation parliament to get the Titans labeled as renegades and cut off from Federation support, and as posted above Blex was an influential member of parliament until he died despite being the leader of a group actively fighting the Titans. Now, if the AEUG didn't exist and Axis never showed up, the Titans would have absolutely gained enough power and influence to perform a military coup without much opposition in a pretty short time frame.
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Aug 9, 2020 05:36
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Kanos posted:They weren't. Char at Dakar was addressing the Federation parliament to get the Titans labeled as renegades and cut off from Federation support, and as posted above Blex was an influential member of parliament until he died despite being the leader of a group actively fighting the Titans. Even within Zeta itself, they managed to get laws passed to be able to order around the entire Federation military before Char got them tossed out in the cold. (Gopp refused to support either side and wound up being one of the few major political figures to get out mostly intact.)
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Aug 9, 2020 05:45
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I've only finished Zeta and am like 6 episodes into ZZ but I just want to say that Haman Karn fuckin rules
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Aug 9, 2020 05:55
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drrockso20 posted:There's a reason why I describe the Federation after the OYW as being dead already, they just don't realize it yet There's a case to be made that Gihren firing the Solar Ray killed both the Federation and Zeon in one fell swoop.
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Aug 9, 2020 05:56
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Omnicrom posted:There's a case to be made that Gihren firing the Solar Ray killed both the Federation and Zeon in one fell swoop. Truthfully it happened the moment Zeon declared war on the Federation
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Aug 9, 2020 08:08
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drrockso20 posted:Truthfully it happened the moment Zeon declared war on the Federation His "terrorize the EF into submission with a blitzkrieg of atrocity" plan almost worked if not for Revil. He knew they couldn't win a real, protracted war so he gambled everything on a display of brutality and it almost paid off. But almost only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades as the saying goes.
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Aug 9, 2020 08:41
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NikkolasKing posted:His "terrorize the EF into submission with a blitzkrieg of atrocity" plan almost worked if not for Revil. He knew they couldn't win a real, protracted war so he gambled everything on a display of brutality and it almost paid off. I meant more that it was the lethal blow for the Federation, it's just that they somehow managed to just barely hang on until near the end of the second century of the Universal Century
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Aug 9, 2020 09:08
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drrockso20 posted:Truthfully it happened the moment Zeon declared war on the Federation Then you might as well say that it died at birth with Lapace. The Federation was flawed from the outset, but it was still able to recover through Gryps at minimum. There was still a serious push in the senate for reforms at points, people were still trying to sort its problems out. It was only after Gryps that the idealist factions were mostly wiped out.
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Aug 9, 2020 09:18
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drrockso20 posted:I meant more that it was the lethal blow for the Federation, it's just that they somehow managed to just barely hang on until near the end of the second century of the Universal Century The thing is the Revil faction would still have been able to recover the Federation potentially, they were strong believers in Newtypes and Spacenoid freedoms, Revil was a beloved war hero, and had been critical of the Federations internal issues. The federation losing Revil meant losing a key figurehead, and since the majority of his faction also got shot to hell, there was no real 'leader' which allowed Jamtiov to take the power he did, being one of the few remaining commanding figures. Since Gopp, especially, was not going to get involved. Onmi fucked around with this message at 09:55 on Aug 9, 2020 |
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Aug 9, 2020 09:51
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Onmi posted:The thing is the Revil faction would still have been able to recover the Federation potentially, they were strong believers in Newtypes and Spacenoid freedoms, Revil was a beloved war hero, and had been critical of the Federations internal issues. The federation losing Revil meant losing a key figurehead, and since the majority of his faction also got shot to hell, there was no real 'leader' which allowed Jamtiov to take the power he did, being one of the few remaining commanding figures. Since Gopp, especially, was not going to get involved. And then they lost Blex, then Jamitov, then Casval... everyone with grand visions or ideals, good or bad, kept dying. Meanwhile, people like Gopp survived. The sad thing is, Gopp was one of the best of the survivors. He had a real sense for the way the wind was really blowing (he was one of the few to not take a side in Gryps, leaving him one of the very few survivors), and although he was corrupt, he made sure not to take more than the system could sustain, and to try to keep everything flowing along. If people like Revil dying killed the Federation in the end, people like Gopp were the reason it managed to limp along for as long as it did.
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Aug 9, 2020 12:26
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NikkolasKing posted:His "terrorize the EF into submission with a blitzkrieg of atrocity" plan almost worked if not for Revil. He knew they couldn't win a real, protracted war so he gambled everything on a display of brutality and it almost paid off. It's debatable really, because the effort of transporting Isle Iffish to Earth and defending it from the Federation as it was transported crippled Zeon and cost them a lot of their manpower and resources. It cost them enough that even when Isle Iffish did fall, and despite all the chaos it caused on Earth, Zeon couldn't actually take advantage of it to finish the war in one fell swoop like they had hoped. No, it didn't hit Jaburo as they had desired, but hitting Jaburo was never going to wipe out the Federation's command anyway, given that those people had plenty of time to evacuate themselves and much of their resources; which is what they did once the colony passed the point of no return. The goal of the operation was to sow chaos by obliterating Jaburo, and even with the chaos they did cause, which was arguably worse, Zeon no longer had the strength to finish the war. The entire reason Revil could give a speech that "Zeon is exhausted" is because they really were loving spent at that point. He was just the first high ranking Federation officer to realize this. If Revil hadn't, and the Federation had surrendered, it'd still have taken a good few months for Zeon to take real control of the Federation, it's territory and it's resources and someone else would have started a resistance or pointed out how badly Side 3 is doing on their own in that time. Additionally, the reason Gihren was using displays of brutality was as much because it was explicitly his goal to decimate the human population to ease the burden on resources and, presumably, make the remainder easier to control. Not just because it'd horrify the opposition. He quite possibly only started the war in the first place because a war was the easiest way to kill off such a huge number of people outside his direct area of influence, and Side 3 could probably have achieved real, lasting independence without a war using politics and economics within a few decades if he'd avoided war entirely in the first place given that the Federation had already recognized Side 3 as an autonomous state and they appear to have had full control with no apparent watch from the Federation over lots of areas of life as is. tsob fucked around with this message at 14:46 on Aug 9, 2020 |
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Aug 9, 2020 14:35
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tsob posted:It's debatable really, because the effort of transporting Isle Iffish to Earth and defending it from the Federation as it was transported crippled Zeon and cost them a lot of their manpower and resources. It cost them enough that even when Isle Iffish did fall, and despite all the chaos it caused on Earth, Zeon couldn't actually take advantage of it to finish the war in one fell swoop like they had hoped. No, it didn't hit Jaburo as they had desired, but hitting Jaburo was never going to wipe out the Federation's command anyway, given that those people had plenty of time to evacuate themselves and much of their resources; which is what they did once the colony passed the point of no return. The goal of the operation was to sow chaos by obliterating Jaburo, and even with the chaos they did cause, which was arguably worse, Zeon no longer had the strength to finish the war. The entire reason Revil could give a speech that "Zeon is exhausted" is because they really were loving spent at that point. He was just the first high ranking Federation officer to realize this. If Revil hadn't, and the Federation had surrendered, it'd still have taken a good few months for Zeon to take real control of the Federation, it's territory and it's resources and someone else would have started a resistance or pointed out how badly Side 3 is doing on their own in that time. Where does the "Gihren wanted to thin out the human population" idea come from? The Origin? If t was in MSG, I don't recall it. I thought it was simple megalomania; he didn't want independence for Side 3, he wanted to be a supreme dictator over everything.
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Aug 9, 2020 14:52
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NikkolasKing posted:Where does the "Gihren wanted to thin out the human population" idea come from? The Origin? If t was in MSG, I don't recall it. He outright tells Degwin during the Hitler comparison that he wants to reduce the human population. I'm pretty sure he's even more explicit about it being a problem due to resource issues in the movie version, but here's the TV version. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlJ5j-hSUmQ
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Aug 9, 2020 15:05
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Onmi posted:The thing is the Revil faction would still have been able to recover the Federation potentially, they were strong believers in Newtypes and Spacenoid freedoms, Revil was a beloved war hero, and had been critical of the Federations internal issues. The federation losing Revil meant losing a key figurehead, and since the majority of his faction also got shot to hell, there was no real 'leader' which allowed Jamtiov to take the power he did, being one of the few remaining commanding figures. Since Gopp, especially, was not going to get involved. The nuke in stardust also didn't help things because it pretty much wiped out the remainder of the Revil faction during the navel review.
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Aug 9, 2020 15:12
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chiasaur11 posted:Then you might as well say that it died at birth with Lapace. What I'm saying is the Federation took so much damage from Zeon's opening attack that it was basically impossible for them to truly recover from it, at best they were able to bandage it for brief periods of time between each war, and every time a new conflict happened it gouged the wound back open even deeper than before
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Aug 9, 2020 19:36
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drrockso20 posted:What I'm saying is the Federation took so much damage from Zeon's opening attack that it was basically impossible for them to truly recover from it, at best they were able to bandage it for brief periods of time between each war, and every time a new conflict happened it gouged the wound back open even deeper than before To be fair you can basically argue the same thing for humanity as a whole. It's only by the time of Turn-A and G-Reco that you see it potentially resolving itself and even then it just takes something from the UC coming back to start it all up again.
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Aug 9, 2020 19:42
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tsob posted:No, it didn't hit Jaburo as they had desired, but hitting Jaburo was never going to wipe out the Federation's command anyway, given that those people had plenty of time to evacuate themselves and much of their resources; I mean, UC development and production times are insanely quick, but Jaburo did have a lot of R&D and production lines that were pretty important later in the war, and losing all that would have been more than the commanders themselves. I don’t know if they could have totally moved all the facilities that rebuilt the EFSF warships for the end of the war, or all the GM’s they cranked out in the last few months. Presumably they also built a lot of the Type-61’s, fighters, and other stuff the Feds used for the majority of the war.
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Aug 9, 2020 19:46
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ImpAtom posted:To be fair you can basically argue the same thing for humanity as a whole. It's only by the time of Turn-A and G-Reco that you see it potentially resolving itself and even then it just takes something from the UC coming back to start it all up again. Again you are completely misunderstanding what I'm saying, I'm talking from an economics perspective
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Aug 9, 2020 19:58
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idk productivity seems so absurdly high in UC that I think the earth sphere might technically be post scarcity. Like look at the massive force Axis was able to build up between the one year war and the gryps conflict.
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Aug 9, 2020 20:02
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Stairmaster posted:idk productivity seems so absurdly high in UC that I think the earth sphere might technically be post scarcity. Like look at the massive force Axis was able to build up between the one year war and the gryps conflict.
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Aug 9, 2020 22:30
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Nessus posted:They don't seem to be post-scarcity in the "Literally Ian Banks' The Culture Novels, Anything Short Is Just Still Late Capitalism" sense, but those colonies didn't spring out of a magic jar either. There does seem to be a recurring, "the only reason why there's a resource shortage is that the leadership has decided there is" subtheme. Well, not always leadership actively decided, but yeah. It's never implied that the economy is so in the gutter that the Federation couldn't both heal the Earth and keep up a decent standard of living for the colonies. It's just that the government mostly consists of people who put their own power and comfort over the lives of those they're supposed to be protecting. It's part of why Blex thought forcing the assembly into space would help. If they have to live in the colonies, the issues of the colonies will suddenly be personal issues, not other people's problems. Makes them a higher priority.
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Aug 9, 2020 22:38
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chiasaur11 posted:Well, not always leadership actively decided, but yeah. It's never implied that the economy is so in the gutter that the Federation couldn't both heal the Earth and keep up a decent standard of living for the colonies. It's just that the government mostly consists of people who put their own power and comfort over the lives of those they're supposed to be protecting.
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Aug 9, 2020 23:18
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all of the colonies looked dope to live in up until, in unicorn, you got a look at that asteroid the first colonists lived in
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Aug 9, 2020 23:26
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Stairmaster posted:all of the colonies looked dope to live in up until, in unicorn, you got a look at that asteroid the first colonists lived in The colony that Char visited in CCA looked kinda lovely.
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Aug 9, 2020 23:50
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Neo_Crimson posted:The colony that Char visited in CCA looked kinda lovely. it looks nicer than modern day america. they even have a train
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Aug 9, 2020 23:53
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Stairmaster posted:all of the colonies looked dope to live in up until, in unicorn, you got a look at that asteroid the first colonists lived in There was the colony with a big dump that Judau and his friends lived in
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Aug 10, 2020 00:05
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Gripweed posted:There was the colony with a big dump that Judau and his friends lived in yeah but zz is zz and plus they got to hang out with yazan
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Aug 10, 2020 00:10
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The Federation probably would have been able to recover completely, even from something as horrid as the OYW, provided they were actually given time to do so, but it's pretty hard to rally and rebuild your population and economy when you have a major conflict or global-scale terrorist incident every two to three years which kills more and more people and demands more and more resources to fix. Eventually you reach the entropic horizon, where you no longer have the resources required to reinvigorate the government because you spent so much keeping the government intact. Every single visionary in a position of power dying in the various wars didn't help at all.
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Aug 10, 2020 02:33
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There's the dubious canon of all the Gundam sidestory mangas like Gundam Katana that depicts an assembly of the various Federation groups to advocate for their particular vision of the Federation's future, including the Titans, True Federal which is Katana's main "contribution" to UC, and even Blex (translated as Blake??) is present. Gripweed posted:I guess that comes down to whether the Earth Federation government valued the millions of civilians who died in the colony drop more than they valued the portion of the fleet destroyed by the nuke. Amusingly, the core of True Federal is made up of survivors of the 0083 nuke who were basically disavowed in order to keep the incident in question shrouded in myth and obscurity. Gopp is the guy in charge of his own PR so I don't buy his self-described benevolent parasite description that much, but he's self-aware enough to try to sell himself that way. Better the rich Athenian who throws money around for parks and the perks of being well-known than the rich Spartans who left behind little art or public works.
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Aug 10, 2020 03:17
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Argas posted:Gopp is the guy in charge of his own PR so I don't buy his self-described benevolent parasite description that much, but he's self-aware enough to try to sell himself that way. Better the rich Athenian who throws money around for parks and the perks of being well-known than the rich Spartans who left behind little art or public works. He's talking to his intended heir, and he's basically calling himself a piece of garbage, so I believe it more than if he was giving a campaign pitch. He's not even saying "I'm not bad, really.". He's saying "I'm bad, but I'm not so stupid as to let the thing I'm leeching off die." What's more, when talking to Yazan, the thing he most wants to know, and the thing that makes him happy, is confirming that the Federation grunts in the One Year War didn't starve. He's not proud of his mansion, or his political influence. He's proud he was able to keep ordinary soldiers alive and not entirely miserable in hellish times.
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Aug 10, 2020 03:25
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this is a weird request but does anybody have a screenshot of the megafauna's steering wheel unobscured? I've lost my blu-rays during the move and I guess g-reco isn't streaming anywhere
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Aug 10, 2020 04:00
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Kanos posted:The Federation probably would have been able to recover completely, even from something as horrid as the OYW, provided they were actually given time to do so, but it's pretty hard to rally and rebuild your population and economy when you have a major conflict or global-scale terrorist incident every two to three years which kills more and more people and demands more and more resources to fix. Eventually you reach the entropic horizon, where you no longer have the resources required to reinvigorate the government because you spent so much keeping the government intact. Leading to what we have in Victory, where... the Federation in Victory hasn't made a new mobile suit in 50 years. So where's all the money going? To staying alive. At that point, the body is dead, they don't even have the will to resist the Zanscare. And really Zanscare is the biggest, final gently caress you to the Zeon concept, even though they are dead. It's not about autonomy in space, as the Zanscare empire has all the autonomy it could need. It's not about Resources because even before this, earth's natural resources were blown to poo poo and it was dependent on Space. Gopp brings this up in his speech to Yazan about how the tides have shifted in Return of Johnny Ridden.
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Aug 10, 2020 04:00
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