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also lol the ussr 2 guy is back at it https://twitter.com/YEASTY_COMMIE/status/1291932373035229184
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Aug 10, 2020 04:04
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Definitely a troll account tbh
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Aug 10, 2020 04:06
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Wait a minute here. Are you guys seeing this ->  What the hell is going on. Holy cow
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Aug 10, 2020 04:07
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Aug 10, 2020 04:19
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weed
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Aug 10, 2020 04:26
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sex weed communism | Me...
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Aug 10, 2020 04:27
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But where does the base fit into all of this...?
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Aug 10, 2020 05:09
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https://www.reddit.com/r/karlmarx/comments/adzjay/did_karl_marx_smoke_weed/
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Aug 10, 2020 05:17
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Aug 10, 2020 05:20
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all good hearted people smoke weed
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Aug 10, 2020 05:31
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smarxist posted:all good hearted people smoke weed Some evil hearted people smoke weed too
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Aug 10, 2020 05:39
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MizPiz posted:Some evil hearted people smoke weed too true, what can you do man, *waves hand w/ blunt in it* that's the dialectic
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Aug 10, 2020 05:42
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e-dt posted:honest q, do trots and mls have any non-historical differences today. like maybe the transitional programme or something? i dont know The wide gulf in their conception in history reflects serious theoretical differences that show up in their organization and action. And if trots were to cross that gap and correct e.g. their woefully eurocentric understanding of socialist history, they wouldn't be trots anymore. See, it's in the DNA of trotskyism that it must perceive all third world revolutions to never have had any socialist potential in the first place, because otherwise their (critical) support for "stalinism" would validate it as socialist. And if they were to conceive "stalinism" as a socialist force, if undesirable compared to other alternatives, instead of a straight betrayal, they'd then have to interrogate the role of Trotsky as a dissident member of a wider socialist movement rather than a special resistance hero for whom everything is implicitly permissible. Trotskyism can't survive that process because its whole identity is tied up in opposition to "stalinism" and pretending that socialism halted in the 1920's, implicitly meaning that there's more to learn from the academic marxists than the boots-on-the-ground revolutionary marxists that have been at work since then. And that last part is why trot praxis has been completely anemic outside of some heterodox Latin American currents that have had a bigger role in and more respect for actual revolutionary tradition. (I suppose that when trots have taken the role of defending revolutionary praxis against specifically local revisionist MLs, that has enabled them to build an authentically trotskyist identity that isn't based on discounting revolutionary experience. Che Guevara is definitely one kind of bridge across the gulf, a "stalinist" that good trots happen to be able to respect as a genuine revolutionary struggling against revisionist MLs.)
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Aug 10, 2020 06:04
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https://twitter.com/peterdaou/status/1292504771933491201?s=19
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Aug 10, 2020 06:36
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uncop posted:The wide gulf in their conception in history reflects serious theoretical differences that show up in their organization and action yeah but like how tho
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Aug 10, 2020 06:42
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MLs tend to have a much more flexible analysis of e.g. the revolutionary potential of peripheral and a more pragmatic take on issues like the national question IME - trots, because of their specific rejection of the soviet programme as actually socialist, have to be a lot more dogmatic and positivist about what constitutes socialist politics. there's also a weird tendency for trots to sympathise a lot with luxemburg's doctrine on the role of the party, namely that it should be prepared for a revolutionary moment to emerge by proliferating its cadres in as broad a way as possible and then let the movement simply coalesce around it, which turns into annoying entryism where MLs try to just set up elaborate networks of front organisations instead of trying to subvert existing orgs fallen MLs join islamic cults or turn into demagoguery and immigration paranoia. fallen trots become neocons. fallen eurocommunists start working for the IMF i guess
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Aug 10, 2020 09:42
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IME, IMF, I don't know anymore!
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Aug 10, 2020 10:12
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Centrist Committee posted:yeah but like how tho I avoided talking about MLs because it's hard to say anything concrete about such a broad abstract group. ML hasn't been an actual tendency for decades. It was way too big and has splintered into at least MLM, China&Vietnam&Cuba style state MLs, focoismo, intercommunalist pseudo-maoists, marcyites (PSL&WWP), KKE&CPGB-ML style weird reactionaries and the largely subcultural dengist&brezhnevite tendencies. Most of them have huge differences in praxis between them and so long as I don't know roughly who you were thinking of, I'd have to write a huge post that tries to cover all the bases. Or, I could take the principally-maoist shortcut and say that ML today is MLM and there exists only MLM and revisionism. But that'd be far from what you expect, since parties like CPI(Maoist), TKP/ML, CPB(RF), CPN(RM) etc. are so obviously a world apart from trots. (I could explain at length, but I'll wait.)
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Aug 10, 2020 16:24
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uncop posted:Or, I could take the principally-maoist shortcut and say that ML today is MLM and there exists only MLM and revisionism. 
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Aug 10, 2020 16:36
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uncop posted:The wide gulf in their conception in history reflects serious theoretical differences that show up in their organization and action. And if trots were to cross that gap and correct e.g. their woefully eurocentric understanding of socialist history, they wouldn't be trots anymore. can you explain why Trotskyism is/was so prevalent in Western countries over other tendencies, namely UK and Aus? is it something to do with red scare tactics aligning with their opposition to Stalin?
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Aug 10, 2020 16:50
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Hefty Leftist posted:can you explain why Trotskyism is/was so prevalent in Western countries over other tendencies, namely UK and Aus? is it something to do with red scare tactics aligning with their opposition to Stalin? Trotskyism isn't even a general western thing, it's specifically an anglo thing with a major Latin American offshoot that anglo trots soon ended up disowning. I don't know for sure, but I think that anglo countries didn't have ML parties that could be defended by genuine popularity or at least the proximity of the USSR, and anglo states decided not to crack down on trots the same way they did on MLs. You know how even now, states like to have an acceptable radical left that can convince leftists to voice support for their imperialist aims. OTOH In countries where strong USSR-aligned ML movements existed, the movements themselves cracked down on trots, trotskyism was the opposite of leftism if you asked them. Trotsky wasn't rehabilitated until Gorbachev.
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Aug 10, 2020 17:06
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i thought there were tons of trots in france and spain in the mid-30s
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Aug 10, 2020 17:17
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Hefty Leftist posted:can you explain why Trotskyism is/was so prevalent in Western countries over other tendencies, namely UK and Aus? is it something to do with red scare tactics aligning with their opposition to Stalin? Yeah, basically it was due to the Cold War and also Stalin has a bit of a different reputation in English speaking countries than the rest of the world. In the US, there were so few leftists of any type, that Trots barely existed (but they did) alongside Maoists (which was okay after the Sino-Soviet split). It was the result of geopolitical narratives. Third world Maoism in general sort of just ignores the second world. i say swears online posted:i thought there were tons of trots in france and spain in the mid-30s Not really, the French and Spanish Communist parties were Soviet aligned. There were Trots in both countries obviously, but really small scale in context. POUM wasn't even officially Trotskist (and was small scale compared to other members of the Popular Front...they got one seat in the 1936 elections). The French Communist Party was Soviet-aligned until 1968. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 17:36 on Aug 10, 2020 |
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Aug 10, 2020 17:23
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Heres I question that I wonder. Why is Tito and Yugosavia's specific brand of socialism not brought up or discussed as much as others?
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Aug 10, 2020 17:26
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AnEdgelord posted:Heres I question that I wonder. Why is Tito and Yugosavia's specific brand of socialism not brought up or discussed as much as others? Got lost in the mix and the fact that Yugoslavia (despite its attempt at being non-aligned) got treated just the same as the former Soviet Union during the 1990s showing that basically Tito's strategy only lasted as long as the Soviet Union was the primary target. Basically, he was another Khrushchev (in Khrushchev case he thought the US and the Soviet Union could be peaceful competitors i.e he was a complete fool).
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Aug 10, 2020 17:31
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AnEdgelord posted:Heres I question that I wonder. Why is Tito and Yugosavia's specific brand of socialism not brought up or discussed as much as others? It lacks the aspirational aspect, it's only cool to market socialists who assume that more markets = more better. The others look at the unemployment rate and instability of basic consumer prices compared to planned economies and conclude that it was just as much of a dead end as it seemed based on that its big innovation was "socialist labor markets".
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Aug 10, 2020 17:55
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i suppose the points of commonality between MLs and trots are foundational marxist ones, like that private property is theft and only a revolution led by a communist party can break capital's power etc
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Aug 10, 2020 17:56
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Ferrinus posted:i suppose the points of commonality between MLs and trots are foundational marxist ones, like that private property is theft and only a revolution led by a communist party can break capital's power etc Yeah, but then there is the question of how to put any of it in practice, which is the issue for any form of Western leftism
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Aug 10, 2020 18:02
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Ardennes posted:Yeah, but then there is the question of how to put any of it in practice, which is the issue for any form of Western leftism the plan? we put none of it into practice so that we can continue to enjoy the fruits of imperialism.
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Aug 10, 2020 18:05
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What's going on in Belarus
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Aug 10, 2020 18:10
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Ferrinus posted:the plan? we put none of it into practice so that we can continue to enjoy the fruits of imperialism. Yeah, that was the plan for Western governments. gradenko_2000 posted:What's going on in Belarus Protests against the election (which Lukashenko "officially won"...both sides claimed victory with ify numbers). It seems like the security apparatus is continuing to back him though.
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Aug 10, 2020 18:16
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as the forums resident trot, the difference between us and the good marxists is that were evil, hate people that arent white, and just generally want to make the world worse for everyone.
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Aug 10, 2020 19:35
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e-dt posted:also lol the ussr 2 guy is back at it i appreciate this guy teasing the second coming of the USSR like he's leaking a new nintendo game
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Aug 10, 2020 19:56
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apropos to nothing posted:as the forums resident trot, the difference between us and the good marxists is that were evil, hate people that arent white, and just generally want to make the world worse for everyone. Well not everyone...capitalists came out fine. 
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Aug 10, 2020 20:03
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MLM = marxists loving marxists
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Aug 10, 2020 20:05
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posted a M4M ad thinking M stood for marxist
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Aug 10, 2020 20:07
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apropos to nothing posted:as the forums resident trot, the difference between us and the good marxists is that were evil, hate people that arent white, and just generally want to make the world worse for everyone. 
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Aug 10, 2020 20:22
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bedpan posted:posted a M4M ad thinking M stood for marxist https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBOJ33FFDLA
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Aug 10, 2020 20:23
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this implies there was anything in Trotskyism worth ruining. 0/10
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Aug 10, 2020 20:26
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| # ? May 25, 2024 07:53 |
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e-dt posted:honest q, do trots and mls have any non-historical differences today. like maybe the transitional programme or something? i dont know my actual answer to this is its a question which imo has little grounding in the modern political situation. are there differences between stalinist and trotskyist parties today? yes. are they any more or less significant than the differences than many of those parties have with other trotskyist or stalinist parties? prolly not. like most stalinists i know would completely disagree with the communist party of great britain on some pretty fundamental things and most trotskyists i know would do the same to the socialist equality party in the US. like always my suggestion would be to talk to people in organizations which you would be interested in joining because you appreciate the work they are doing or their political approach and then join them or not based on that, rather than what someone on the internet repeats as hearsay.
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Aug 10, 2020 20:28
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