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Who will you vote for in 2020? This poll is closed. |
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|---|---|---|---|
| Biden |
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425 | 18.06% |
| Trump |
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105 | 4.46% |
| whoever the Green Party runs |
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307 | 13.05% |
| GOOGLE RON PAUL |
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151 | 6.42% |
| Bernie Sanders |
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346 | 14.70% |
| Stalin |
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246 | 10.45% |
| Satan |
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300 | 12.75% |
| Nobody |
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202 | 8.58% |
| Jess Scarane |
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110 | 4.67% |
| mystery man Brian Carroll of the American Solidarity Party |
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61 | 2.59% |
| Dick Nixon |
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100 | 4.25% |
| Total: | 2089 votes | ||
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https://twitter.com/CBSNews/status/1293004206547361794
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Aug 11, 2020 03:14
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| # ? Jun 10, 2024 13:01 |
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JT Jag posted:I don't think anyone in this thread, including the "Biden supporters" (which I regretfully include myself as), actually suspects Biden will push for M4A. I, personally, think if the Dems win the Senate there's a decent chance at a public option, but that's it. He seems to come to the conclusion regardless on what the actual plans practically do. It's easy to see that as an synonym for never.
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Aug 11, 2020 03:15
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I know that means it'll likely be tomorrow but it'd be really funny if he announced at like 11 PM for no reason like he was ashamed of it.
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Aug 11, 2020 03:16
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People arguing on Biden’s side on this one should really take a moment to think about how the defense of Joe Biden regarding m4a is “well he technically didn’t say he’d directly veto it outright and he probably wouldn’t if he had the chance, maybe, but he just understands that it’ll never, ever happen under his administration so no harm no foul”
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Aug 11, 2020 03:16
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:People arguing on Biden’s side on this one should really take a moment to think about how the defense of Joe Biden regarding m4a is “well he technically didn’t say he’d directly veto it outright and he probably wouldn’t if he had the chance, maybe, but he just understands that it’ll never, ever happen under his administration so no harm no foul” From my point of view the alternative is accelarationism and I've never bought into that.
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Aug 11, 2020 03:19
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Again he did in fact literally say he would veto it outright, he's literally anti-M4A https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/10/biden-says-he-wouldd-veto-medicare-for-all-as-coronavirus-focuses-attention-on-health.html quote:“Nancy Pelosi gets a version of it through the House of Representatives. It comes to your desk. Do you veto it?” MSNBC host Lawrence O’Donnell asked Biden during an interview Monday night.
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Aug 11, 2020 03:19
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JT Jag posted:That's not my defense of him. My defense of him is that under his administration Medicare for All just ain't happening. But there might be some progress, and America will momentarily stop sliding into a Trumpian kleptocracy. A Biden administration isn't great, but it'd provide a breather after the insanity of the last four years. oh, I'll just die then because otherwise it'd be accelarationism
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Aug 11, 2020 03:20
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sexpig by night posted:oh, I'll just die then because otherwise it'd be accelarationism
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Aug 11, 2020 03:22
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JT Jag posted:That's not my defense of him. My defense of him is that under his administration Medicare for All just ain't happening. But there might be some progress, and America will momentarily stop sliding into a Trumpian kleptocracy. A Biden administration isn't great, but it'd provide a breather after the insanity of the last four years. How about "Build up the movement no matter who wins and realize even if you feel like you have to vote for the lesser evil your one vote isn't that important to giving your support."?
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Aug 11, 2020 03:23
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JT Jag posted:Forums poster sexpig by night, what is your perfect scenario for this election? What do you want to happen? What scenario can you envision that would lead to Medicare for All being passed by a sitting president next year? oh there is no good outcome in the short-term short of a meteor hitting the debate stage and killing everyone but Howie, I'm just not pretending that one of those situations that's most likely to happen is actual harm reduction, and to be honest I rather loving resent constantly being called an accelerationist because I'm acknowledging the fact that under either presidential option there's a poo poo ton of people like me who are just hosed regardless.
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Aug 11, 2020 03:24
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Rockit posted:How about "Build up the movement no matter who wins and realize even if you feel like you have to vote for the lesser evil your one vote isn't that important to giving your support."?
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Aug 11, 2020 03:24
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JT Jag posted:I don't think anyone in this thread, including the "Biden supporters" (which I regretfully include myself as), actually suspects Biden will push for M4A. I, personally, think if the Dems win the Senate there's a decent chance at a public option, but that's it. I mean, it is an absurd argument because the plain reading is that he would obviously veto it. quote:I would veto anything that delays providing the security and the certainty of health care being available now,” Biden responded. “If they got that through in by some miracle or there’s an epiphany that occurred and some miracle occurred that said, ‘OK, it’s passed,’ then you got to look at the cost.” The guy who has based his entire campaign on opposing medicare 4 all says that he would veto it if it "significantly raise taxes on the middle class" and then he completes it with "which it will." Of course, that is on top of the fact that the two conditionals that he brings up, "delaying the healthcare available now" and "rising taxes" are precisely the two things that his campaign has focused on in attacking M4A. The plain, obvious reading of what he said is that he'd veto it. Biden supporters have this pathological need to defend and try to find progressive meaning even when it is in stark opposition to what Biden himself has said. This tedious game of splicing sentences and finding obscure meaning where all context is ignored is like trying to have a serious argument about whether my grandma would be a motorcycle if she had wheels. From defending Libya long after Obama has admitted it was a mistake, to defending his statement on diversity in the African American community long after his campaign apologized, to this silliness, it is incredibly tedious.
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Aug 11, 2020 03:27
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JT Jag posted:Forums poster sexpig by night, what is your perfect scenario for this election? What do you want to happen? What scenario can you envision that would lead to Medicare for All being passed by a sitting president next year? There is not even a good scenario for this election. No need to get into hypotheticals.
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Aug 11, 2020 03:27
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JT Jag posted:My dude, every dollar I spend on politics goes to progressive causes. I'm already there. That realization means you shouldn't judge people if they vote green and/or are more pessimistic of a Biden presidency than you. They're still Local and state poo poo that can be done and these people are going to be there. By all means criticize them for it. God knows i'm trying. but you don't have to be an accelerationist to be skeptical of what the feds are going to do. Rockit fucked around with this message at 03:31 on Aug 11, 2020 |
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Aug 11, 2020 03:28
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sexpig by night posted:oh there is no good outcome in the short-term short of a meteor hitting the debate stage and killing everyone but Howie, I'm just not pretending that one of those situations that's most likely to happen is actual harm reduction, and to be honest I rather loving resent constantly being called an accelerationist because I'm acknowledging the fact that under either presidential option there's a poo poo ton of people like me who are just hosed regardless. If a meteor hit the debate stage and killed everyone but Howie, Mike Pence would become President, then proceed to winning the general election and things would be significantly worse than they have been Trump, albeit in different ways.
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Aug 11, 2020 03:28
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enraged_camel posted:Yeah. What is your impression with regards to what will happen? Because he has already signalled so strongly that he will oppose it, and because his party is so heavily funded by so many groups that stand to lose a huge amount of money if it goes through, and because he won the primary, it won't even get to the point of anything passing his desk. M4A is dead and his campaign is too cowardly to go down on record as killing it.
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Aug 11, 2020 03:29
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enraged_camel posted:If a meteor hit the debate stage and killed everyone but Howie, Mike Pence would become President, then proceed to winning the general election and things would be significantly worse than they have been Trump, albeit in different ways. alright two meteors, I'm willing to add as many meteors as I need my dude
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Aug 11, 2020 03:31
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Somfin posted:Because he has already signalled so strongly that he will oppose it, and because his party is so heavily funded by so many groups that stand to lose a huge amount of money if it goes through, and because he won the primary, it won't even get to the point of anything passing his desk. M4A is dead and his campaign is too cowardly to go down on record as killing it. Yeah, that makes sense. What about public option? Do you think that has a chance?
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Aug 11, 2020 03:32
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sexpig by night posted:alright two meteors, I'm willing to add as many meteors as I need my dude Meteors for everyone. My body is ready. For real though I'm genuinely concerned that Trump has a heart attack or a stroke in the next couple of months and Pence takes over.
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Aug 11, 2020 03:33
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Rockit posted:Given you call Sexpig an accelerationist for basically complaining more pessimistic and what they're doing for their one vote forgive me for assuming that realization hasn't sinked in. - I don't phonebank for Joe Biden - I haven't donated a dollar to Joe Biden's campaign - I did phonebank and donate to Bernie both in 2016 and 2020 - My political donations go to Amnesty United, local bail funds in areas effected by the protests, progressive candidates running for office near me and groups like Sunrise Movement - I'm just as confused as to what the best path forward is as everyone else, but I'm pretty sure that path does not involve Donald Trump winning a second term
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Aug 11, 2020 03:33
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enraged_camel posted:Meteors for everyone. My body is ready. no way does pence win against any given living human opponent. somehow the dems would find a way to gently caress that up too.
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Aug 11, 2020 03:34
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enraged_camel posted:Meteors for everyone. My body is ready. eh I think the'll Roosevelt him if that happens, Pence may have the shine of 'at least he's not Trump' but they know 'uh our big wet boy fuckin stroked out on the toilet trying to tweet about very nasty mayors or whatever' won't inspire voters.
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Aug 11, 2020 03:34
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enraged_camel posted:Yeah, that makes sense. Personally yes. The pandemic and the aftershock have kinda put things so out of wack they got to have something on the plate. The weight from the insurance industry wouldn't matter as much to complete ignore but not necessarily to make them powerless. Whether or not it will watered down via negations with centrist dems and/or republicans is a very clear possibility. Along with the event it turns out to be poo poo in the first pass. That said the chances of a "Good" version are underrated but not actually guaranteed. Rockit fucked around with this message at 03:38 on Aug 11, 2020 |
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Aug 11, 2020 03:35
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JT Jag posted:Well, just to be abundantly clear:
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Aug 11, 2020 03:36
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Rockit posted:i wasn't asking for activist rep i assumed you were legit on that. I was just asking for you not to dimiss other's. Ok?
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Aug 11, 2020 03:36
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Rockit posted:Personally yes. The pandemic and the aftershock have kinda put things so out of wack they got to have something on the plate. Yeah, I think you're absolutely right about the effects of covid. Several hundred thousand people have been hospitalized so far. A lot of them have just started getting their bills. Those bills will bankrupt many of them. Unpaid bills will in turn bankrupt many hospitals. Maybe I read the CSPAM doomsday economics thread too often, but I get the impression that the real poo poo has not hit the fan yet. Not even close.
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Aug 11, 2020 03:40
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Rockit posted:How about "Build up the movement no matter who wins and realize even if you feel like you have to vote for the lesser evil your one vote isn't that important to giving your support."? The problem with that rationale is that voting for the lesser evil is still a vote for evil. No matter who you vote for, as far as the counters are concerned, your vote is for the entire package, good bad and ugly. There is no comment section on the ballot that says "I like Candidate's position on X, but not Y." Your vote is for the whole pile, XY and Z. I understand that there is no such thing as a perfect candidate and that they all have warts of one shape or another, but that doesn't mean you should feel obligated to Stockholm yourself into voting for someone you know is objectively terrible just because the other guy is worse, because here's a secret: There is ALWAYS going to be a worse guy. Vote for the person who you actually believe in, not the person that a bunch of disingenuous fuckpicks are screaming and browbeating you into voting for out of a misplaced sense of entitlement.
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Aug 11, 2020 03:42
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the_steve posted:The problem with that rationale is that voting for the lesser evil is still a vote for evil. I don't. I live in Florida. Political calculus is mandatory.
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Aug 11, 2020 03:45
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JT Jag posted:I'd probably do exactly that if I lived in a solid Blue state! That's what they want you to believe in order to keep you compliant. 
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Aug 11, 2020 03:49
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I think there's a big difference between Biden supporters and Biden voters in the same way (and people will get pissed at me) there's a difference between Trump supporters and Trump voters. And if there's no difference in the latter, then why the confidence in this election's results going to Biden. I digress, though. I'm indifferent on who wins because I feel like nothing will meaningfully change and what change that will happen will have nothing to do with November (and I do have hope for that change). However, I think a line has to be drawn on certain forms of conduct and I personally cannot vote for Biden for reasons I've expressed for a personal past I've made clear in this thread before and won't repeat again. That being said, the historical revisionism of "Biden's actually progressive" or even "Biden can be pushed left"... the guy is currently acting on vendettas against centrists like Harris and Abrams being pushy, this is clearly a vengeful administration he'll be running. At the end of the day, who pressures him? It won't be the voters who will have voted him into office. It won't be the congress people who all agreed to get behind him, scandals or no. There's no leverage on this dude and then there's this constant talk about all the leverage leftists can have on him. That leverage was the primaries! The opportunity came and went! We're hosed on that count. That doesn't mean we're hosed entirely, and boy oh boy do I get tired of being called a nothing matters poster, so I'll cap off on a positive note, which is that I've been thinking about WEB Dubois's essay on why he was forgoing the 1956 election. A lot of his points are very familiar, very relatable, and it feels we really are stuck in this loop of indistinguishable parties who refuse to pay attention to the actual people who vote for them... but he didn't foresee a civil rights act in his essay. Things were done for black people, even out of the incredibly stupid bipartisan process of the time. It didn't happen in Washington, no, it happened in the streets. So good can come, not necessarily only in the hellfire of revolution, but just pressure on the street. But that could happen with Trump or Biden. We got some stimulus out of a Trump administration. Some. It's not enough, and we're all going to die. But some. The Republicans had to curve their war boner for a bit because their electorate started to revolt against them. The fight not only doesn't end on election day, it doesn't give a poo poo about it. Which is why I don't think it's worth voting for Biden, because it's just a blemish on your own conscience, supporting some of the laziest, shittiest campaigning on the planet for a guy who lost in times of plenty and now suddenly he's going to be the savior in the time of want? No, he sucks. But that "damage control," we can do that now. We don't need to wait for Democrats to come back into office for it. We don't need Democrats. That's the point I'm putting forward. Not nihilism or glorious revolution, but putting the pressure on politicians now. isayasisitathomeduringtheseprotestsbecauseilivewithpeoplewhowouldbehighlysusceptibletocovid but you get what I'm saying.The future is now. We don't have to wait for November. Or care about November. The future is now.
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Aug 11, 2020 03:49
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I'm looking forward to the debates personally 
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Aug 11, 2020 03:49
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JT Jag posted:That's not my defense of him. My defense of him is that under his administration Medicare for All just ain't happening. But there might be some progress, and America will momentarily stop sliding into a Trumpian kleptocracy. A Biden administration isn't great, but it'd provide a breather after the insanity of the last four years. But climate change is progressing unabated. So your position is that people should vote for the guy who will make things rapidly worse. And not vote for anyone who will try to make things better. And you are calling others accelerationist? Sorry, that's just hosed. Yes, voting for Trump is accelerationist. Absolutely. And yes, voting for Biden is in some sense less accelerationist... But you are still an accelerationist!
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Aug 11, 2020 03:54
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trump is literally accelerating climate disaster and pulling us out of climate agreements though
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Aug 11, 2020 03:56
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Jimbozig posted:But climate change is progressing unabated. So your position is that people should vote for the guy who will make things rapidly worse. And not vote for anyone who will try to make things better. Well, doesn't "accelerationist" mean "actively wants things to burn down as quickly as possible"? So by definition, anyone who has a policy platform of addressing climate change is empathically not an accelerationist. To use a car analogy, Trump is flooring the gas pedal. Biden wants to step on the brakes — maybe not hard enough to make the car come to a complete stop in time, but enough to reduce the damage.
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Aug 11, 2020 04:00
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enraged_camel posted:To use a car analogy, Trump is flooring the gas pedal. Biden wants to step on the brakes — maybe not hard enough to make the car come to a complete stop in time, but enough to reduce the damage. Not even a little bit. Biden will acknowledge that we are going too fast in this analogy, certainly. But nothing will radically change. It's scary to face but we're so entirely hosed with either of them.
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Aug 11, 2020 04:04
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Herstory Begins Now posted:trump is literally accelerating climate disaster and pulling us out of climate agreements though That doesn't quite contradict the post that says biden is less bad than trump. Probably Magic posted:I think there's a big difference between Biden supporters and Biden voters in the same way (and people will get pissed at me) there's a difference between Trump supporters and Trump voters. And if there's no difference in the latter, then why the confidence in this election's results going to Biden. I digress, though. I'm indifferent on who wins because I feel like nothing will meaningfully change and what change that will happen will have nothing to do with November (and I do have hope for that change). However, I think a line has to be drawn on certain forms of conduct and I personally cannot vote for Biden for reasons I've expressed for a personal past I've made clear in this thread before and won't repeat again. That being said, the historical revisionism of "Biden's actually progressive" or even "Biden can be pushed left"... the guy is currently acting on vendettas against centrists like Harris and Abrams being pushy, this is clearly a vengeful administration he'll be running. At the end of the day, who pressures him? It won't be the voters who will have voted him into office. It won't be the congress people who all agreed to get behind him, scandals or no. There's no leverage on this dude and then there's this constant talk about all the leverage leftists can have on him. That leverage was the primaries! The opportunity came and went! We're hosed on that count. To be clear is there not some degree of difference between how much each candidate will be pressured? I'd like to think so but given OWS, BLM i suspect the differences are there but very minimal. Encouraging post overall 10/10.
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Aug 11, 2020 04:05
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Herstory Begins Now posted:trump is literally accelerating climate disaster and pulling us out of climate agreements though The agreements had no actual requirements and no enforcement mechanisms. What did pulling out change apart from symbolism?
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Aug 11, 2020 04:14
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JT Jag posted:Well, just to be abundantly clear: what people are saying, is that healthcare doesn't have to be executive ordered by an Imperial President (genuinely the most destructive outcome of post-WWII presidencies). we have a chance, in the next 4 years, of a seriously blue wave--one continuing the trend of progressive snake person's starting Congressional careers--a wave, that if, received by a modestly progressive president could write a successful Medicare for All bill (or, if I'm being cynical, at the VERY least a bill that fixes up the ACA in a substantial manner). Biden is signalling he will veto progressiveness as an ideology. that includes a significant possibility he would veto anything but the most lobbyist friend healthcare bill. that is what has people so upset. we are on a razors edge right now, and the DNC is casting their lot with the idiot, slimy, grifter Never Trumpers. people dumb enough that Trump republicans for once, are correct in hating them. it's dire out there, and more people are cluing into just how dire it is. MonsieurChoc posted:Anyone who plans to vote for Biden needs to read Listen, liberal. It's such a great dissection of the Liberal mind. This is more aggressive then I'd put it, but it is a fantastic book even if you just want to understand how the DNC abandoned progressivism. Famethrowa fucked around with this message at 04:36 on Aug 11, 2020 |
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Aug 11, 2020 04:27
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Pro-Biden people need to grow up and realize we are not living in a Saturday Morning Cartoon. Trump is not Lex Luthor. Biden is not your friend. By any metric that matters, the 2020 election IS ALREADY LOST. You are going to get completely hosed over on Healthcare, Climate Change and Racial Justice for the next four years no matter who wins. It will be, at best, a 1% difference. You have to open your eyes one day and realize the situation you're in. You can't just keep gaslighting yourself into believing everything is fine because the president now has a D next to his name. TheDeadlyShoe posted:Both Clinton and Obama had a technocratic bent and placed a premium on competence and expertise. There's no reason at all to think Biden will be different in this respect, whatever you think of him. See, this is part of the delusion. The "expertise" of the liberals turned out to be completely phony. The Ivy League are a giant grift for and by the wealthy. They all drunk the same Kool-aid and ran the country into the loving ground. Anyone who plans to vote for Biden needs to read Listen, liberal. It's such a great dissection of the Liberal mind.
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Aug 11, 2020 04:27
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| # ? Jun 10, 2024 13:01 |
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Somfin posted:The agreements had no actual requirements and no enforcement mechanisms. What did pulling out change apart from symbolism? The other half of the post you quoted addresses that. Trump personally is wildly opposed to renewable energy (remember all his weird poo poo about how windmills cause cancer that he went on about for literally years about?) and has gutted the epa and environmental regulations as a whole.
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Aug 11, 2020 04:40
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