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Who will you vote for in 2020? This poll is closed. |
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|---|---|---|---|
| Biden |
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425 | 18.06% |
| Trump |
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105 | 4.46% |
| whoever the Green Party runs |
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307 | 13.05% |
| GOOGLE RON PAUL |
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151 | 6.42% |
| Bernie Sanders |
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346 | 14.70% |
| Stalin |
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246 | 10.45% |
| Satan |
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300 | 12.75% |
| Nobody |
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202 | 8.58% |
| Jess Scarane |
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110 | 4.67% |
| mystery man Brian Carroll of the American Solidarity Party |
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61 | 2.59% |
| Dick Nixon |
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100 | 4.25% |
| Total: | 2089 votes | ||
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StratGoatCom posted:Or when we get another Nixon To China moment for something from Biden. Like gutting Social Security? That's been a hobby horse of Biden's for decades.
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Aug 11, 2020 19:13
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MonsieurChoc posted:I would also be willing to give a lot more credence to the idea of incremental change if the entire Obama presidency hadn't disproved that. the problem with incremental change is that democrats aren't the only ones doing it. any good public service we have was slowly dismantled while trying to solve some other societal woe.
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Aug 11, 2020 19:15
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Son of Thunderbeast posted:Like gutting Social Security? That's been a hobby horse of Biden's for decades. I was thinking canning the dreamer stuff entirely, but that's a good one too. StratGoatCom fucked around with this message at 19:23 on Aug 11, 2020 |
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Aug 11, 2020 19:17
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StratGoatCom posted:I was thinking canning DACA entirely, but that's a good one too. Backdoor gutting of Social Security is substantively more likely than Biden ending DACA (without some form of Dream Act to replace it). Biden has no incentive to start reversing popular policies his previous administration put into place, and there isn't exactly a large "anti-DACA" funding group to make the case for it. "Is there a profit motive?" is a pretty decent mental test in evaluating the worst case scenarios of a Biden admin, outside of some fringe "he goes full dementia and just starts doing random poo poo" angles.
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Aug 11, 2020 19:24
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I think the immediacy of the climate crisis is only going to make change *more* possible over the next decade. That's why I think it is incredibly important for us to set the scene to make that electoral change as big as possible by 1) Electing Joe to get rid of Trump 2) elect as large of a (D) Senate majority as possible + maintain the House, then 3) pass the historic and sweeping voter-rights legislation in HR 1 to take a huge step forward in cutting out the heart of Republican electoral strategies, then 4) make D.C. a state to add +2 (D) Senate seats, 5) encourage Puerto Rico to join the Union for a possible additional +2 (D) Senate seats, and finally 6) be in control of the 2021 redistricting processes following the 2020 Census, which even if done in a non-partisan way (as opposed to weighed in Democrats favor) *still* hacks away a the ghoulish body of Republican electoral strategies of voter disenfranchisement. Those are all very reasonable, grounded, and mainstream actions that can very well happen if we elect Joe in a landslide wave in November. They would make it so, so much easier to both elect a new generation of Progressive legislators and also to follow-through on actually implementing Progressive policies like the Green New Deal and expanding the social safety nets. We lost the Presidential Primary, we lost that particular battle, but I certainly do not believe in any way that we have lost the war. I think momentum and history are on our side, and we are starting to win.
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Aug 11, 2020 19:28
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You don't get it do you? We had a decade to do poo poo the comparatively painless way, and Biden will squander, at unrealistically best, 4 years of it, if not fritter it away by handing it to the next repub monster, assuming said monster doesn't successfully end democracy.
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Aug 11, 2020 19:31
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I'm just here to introduce the idea of subletting the position of Vice President so that Biden can promise to resign and then give some other lucky contestant a chance to be President! and uh, yeah, of course, Vice
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Aug 11, 2020 19:32
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How are u posted:I think the immediacy of the climate crisis is only going to make change *more* possible over the next decade. That's why I think it is incredibly important for us to set the scene to make that electoral change as big as possible by 1) Electing Joe to get rid of Trump 2) elect as large of a (D) Senate majority as possible + maintain the House, then 3) pass the historic and sweeping voter-rights legislation in HR 1 to take a huge step forward in cutting out the heart of Republican electoral strategies, then 4) make D.C. a state to add +2 (D) Senate seats, 5) encourage Puerto Rico to join the Union for a possible additional +2 (D) Senate seats, and finally 6) be in control of the 2021 redistricting processes following the 2020 Census, which even if done in a non-partisan way (as opposed to weighed in Democrats favor) *still* hacks away a the ghoulish body of Republican electoral strategies of voter disenfranchisement. This is the "hope is a lie, everything is doomed, why bother trying?" thread, you must be lost.  I agree with all of this. The genuine excitement I am seeing from progressive groups that are already seeing that momentum start to build has given me some much needed hope.
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Aug 11, 2020 19:33
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LegendaryFrog posted:This is the "hope is a lie, everything is doomed, why bother trying?" thread, you must be lost.
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Aug 11, 2020 19:36
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How are u posted:I think the immediacy of the climate crisis is only going to make change *more* possible over the next decade. That's why I think it is incredibly important for us to set the scene to make that electoral change as big as possible by 1) Electing Joe to get rid of Trump 2) elect as large of a (D) Senate majority as possible + maintain the House, then 3) pass the historic and sweeping voter-rights legislation in HR 1 to take a huge step forward in cutting out the heart of Republican electoral strategies, then 4) make D.C. a state to add +2 (D) Senate seats, 5) encourage Puerto Rico to join the Union for a possible additional +2 (D) Senate seats, and finally 6) be in control of the 2021 redistricting processes following the 2020 Census, which even if done in a non-partisan way (as opposed to weighed in Democrats favor) *still* hacks away a the ghoulish body of Republican electoral strategies of voter disenfranchisement. I wish I had a quarter of your hope. Predicting anything better than a disaster feels like a vice. Our Special Boy has all the tools he needs to win the election while 10 points down, and right now he's 8 points on 538.
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Aug 11, 2020 19:36
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How are u posted:I think the immediacy of the climate crisis is only going to make change *more* possible over the next decade. That's why I think it is incredibly important for us to set the scene to make that electoral change as big as possible by 1) Electing Joe to get rid of Trump 2) elect as large of a (D) Senate majority as possible + maintain the House, then 3) pass the historic and sweeping voter-rights legislation in HR 1 to take a huge step forward in cutting out the heart of Republican electoral strategies, then 4) make D.C. a state to add +2 (D) Senate seats, 5) encourage Puerto Rico to join the Union for a possible additional +2 (D) Senate seats, and finally 6) be in control of the 2021 redistricting processes following the 2020 Census, which even if done in a non-partisan way (as opposed to weighed in Democrats favor) *still* hacks away a the ghoulish body of Republican electoral strategies of voter disenfranchisement. Sure. Despite claims to the contrary, I'm not a "all hope is lost; nothing matters" guy. But I have an extremely difficult time believing that either the Democrats or Biden himself will suddenly be amenable to the GND after spending so much time opposing it and having to be dragged, kicking and screaming, a centimeter to the left on climate. Moving emission goals back by fifteen years is admirable but still woefully inadequate. The momentum from the left that's being built is not because of Biden but in spite of him. Biden and his wing of the party are nothing if not hostile to leftists, consider them "irrelevant" and essentially tell them to "shut up and vote Democrat". I don't think a better future is going to come from either mainstream party.
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Aug 11, 2020 19:37
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LegendaryFrog posted:This is the "hope is a lie, everything is doomed, why bother trying?" thread, you must be lost. Well, yeah, it's looking pretty drat close to that, as the seas are rising, the growing seasons are looking to become unstable, and the loving fascist barbarians are beating at the gates the loving west over. Any analysis of politics that doesn't start with this is dangerously unimaginative; we are playing for much greater stakes then what was considered normal during 'the end of history'. StratGoatCom fucked around with this message at 19:41 on Aug 11, 2020 |
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Aug 11, 2020 19:38
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StratGoatCom posted:You don't get it do you? We had a decade to do poo poo the comparatively painless way, and Biden will squander, at unrealistically best, 4 years of it, if not fritter it away by handing it to the next repub monster, assuming said monster doesn't successfully end democracy. This is the circle we keep coming back to though. Trump reelected does not mean we get Leftist Savior in 2024 if anything it means the end of the Republic and all the Bad Things that would entail. Don't vote for Biden, fine, I can respect that. But this thread actively wants not just him, but most every Democrat to lose and Trump and his cronies to win and I find that unacceptable, stupid, and literally sentencing people to death.
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Aug 11, 2020 19:46
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Solaris 2.0 posted:This is the circle we keep coming back to though. Trump reelected does not mean we get Leftist Savior in 2024 quote:But this thread actively wants not just him, but most every Democrat to lose and Trump and his cronies to win Son of Thunderbeast fucked around with this message at 19:52 on Aug 11, 2020 |
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Aug 11, 2020 19:49
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Trump suppresses the emergence of the next, even worse, repub monster by holding the top seat. The 'left' is completely unready to fight what is to come right now. Trump may end democracy, but the next repub is likely to be 'will' as it stands, especially with the dems being infiltrated by 'nevertrumper' filth.
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Aug 11, 2020 19:49
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F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:
This I agree with completely, and the hope that I hold for Progressive victories through the 2020s do not hinge on Biden suddenly becoming a Progressive leader.
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Aug 11, 2020 19:49
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Solaris 2.0 posted:This is the circle we keep coming back to though. Trump reelected does not mean we get Leftist Savior in 2024 if anything it means the end of the Republic and all the Bad Things that would entail. There is no way to believe any of this is anything any leftist IIT wants or claims will happen without being totally disingenuous and reading everything in the most bad faith possible interpretation.
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Aug 11, 2020 19:55
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Son of Thunderbeast posted:Why should anyone put in effort engaging you in good faith when this is the attitude you approach people and their issues with? Because the rules of this thread are to engage in good faith, and make posts with content that further the conversation rather than do things like randomly swooping in to make posts like this. -------------------------------------------------------------- StratGoatCom posted:Well, yeah, it's looking pretty drat close to that, as the seas are rising, the growing seasons are looking to become unstable, and the loving fascist barbarians are beating at the gates the loving west over. There is a difference though, between recognizing the scale of the problems and risk, and giving in to that feeling of overwhelming hopelessness. I won't fault someone for calling attention to the problems at hand... we all need to be participating in that. But it is equally important to not diminish the victories that are achieved or kill the hope in the people trying to achieve them. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Son of Thunderbeast posted:Citation loving needed. Pentecoastal Elites posted:There is no way to believe any of this is anything any leftist IIT wants or claims will happen without being totally disingenuous and reading everything in the most bad faith possible interpretation. Look, I don't believe anywhere near most people in this thread believe that, but I also don't think it is fair to suggest that attitude doesn't surface... repeatedly and unambiguously from time to time. Just an example... \/ Classon Ave. Robot posted:The idea that Trump is a uniquely destructive president is ridiculous on it's face, people believe it because they've been told to. He's no worse than Bush 2, and most of the bad she he actually does is stuff that Obama did for 8 years with no protest from the people who think Trump is going to start a civil war (lmao). Voting for Biden will accomplish exactly nothing, he will let things get worse and worse for 4 years and then be replaced by someone with the same goals as the Trump administration but also with the intelligence to actually accomplish anything. ---------------------------------------------- How are u posted:This I agree with completely, and the hope that I hold for Progressive victories through the 2020s do not hinge on Biden suddenly becoming a Progressive leader. Right. It won't be a single election (or elections at all, really) that are most likely to cause the change we need to see happen, up to and including saving the entire planet. Instead, it is the energy and capacity for action that some democratic electoral victories bring within progressive activist organizations that offers the best chance to push meaningful change forward. LegendaryFrog fucked around with this message at 20:01 on Aug 11, 2020 |
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Aug 11, 2020 19:59
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Son of Thunderbeast posted:People keep saying this but it's not true. It's a strawman and, at this point, a knowing and outright lie; nobody has said or even implied that reelecting Trump means we get a perfect leftist savior candidate in 2024. This is nobody's argument. So what do you hope to achieve by having Trump run the US Government for 4 more years then?
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Aug 11, 2020 20:03
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LegendaryFrog posted:Look, I don't believe anywhere near most people in this thread believe that, but I also don't think it is fair to suggest that attitude doesn't surface... repeatedly and unambiguously from time to time. Just an example...
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Aug 11, 2020 20:05
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Son of Thunderbeast posted:That post does not even approach the sentiment of "actively want[ing] not just [Biden], but most every Democrat to lose and Trump and his cronies to win," so why are you pretending like it is? Why are you ignoring the multitudes of posts from leftists who have said that they're voting for and supporting progressives downballot, and defending a post accusing leftists of being secret Trump lovers? You are saying, earnestly, a post ending in "The only route to progress in America is through the dissolution of the democratic party, nothing else can help you at this point. The best case scenario is that they lose all 50 states and can be replaced by something worthwhile." does not even approach the sentiment of "Actively want[ing] not just [Biden], but most every Democrat to lose and Trump and his cronies to win"? I'm not ignoring the multitudes of posts from leftists in this thread who say otherwise. I explicitly said I don't believe the vast majority of members in this thread hold attitudes like that. Solaris' post was over the top and I disagree with it. However I keep seeing people make strong assertions of "literally nobody has ever said that in this thread", sometimes even minutes after someone said almost exactly that thing. It isn't some kind of galaxy brain stretch to connect "I hope Democrats lose all 50 states" to thinking that person is thus hoping that Trump wins the election.
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Aug 11, 2020 20:12
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How are u posted:We lost the Presidential Primary, we lost that particular battle, but I certainly do not believe in any way that we have lost the war. I think momentum and history are on our side, and we are starting to win. my friend, no one is giving up. i assure you, even the people who have given up on national elections are still willing to go out and help local elections. no one itt is going to lay down and die. anyone not voting for biden is doing so because they're fighting for something. you keep telling everyone to cheer up but i can't help but think that you are the one who needs cheering up. what you call doom and gloom itt is actually resentment and anger. unless the world literally ends people are still going to do something
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Aug 11, 2020 20:17
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My hopes are with those on the streets, as Washington is largely turning into a Versailles these days, and it's an open question whether we ever get anyone as good as bernie again, and he had some pretty severe failings.
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Aug 11, 2020 20:22
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StratGoatCom posted:My hopes are with those on the streets, as Washington is largely turning into a Versailles these days, and it's an open question whether we ever get anyone as good as bernie again, and he had some pretty severe failings. The recent elections of people like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Cori Bush gives me a lot of hope that we will have a generation of politicians to choose from that will serve progressive values at least as well as Bernie Sanders. The people on the streets are setting the stage necessary to actually get one of those over the finish line in a national election.
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Aug 11, 2020 20:26
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LegendaryFrog posted:The recent elections of people like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Cori Bush gives me a lot of hope that we will have a generation of politicians to choose from that will serve progressive values at least as well as Bernie Sanders. The people on the streets are setting the stage necessary to actually get one of those over the finish line in a national election. I worry that (A) the Biden wing of the party knows this and wants them gone - all their actions outside of some hurried backpedaling recently suggest they want to jettison the minority and activist parts of their base, and they will work hard to do so, and be emboldened by Biden, and (b) by then, the damage will be unfixable.
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Aug 11, 2020 20:31
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Rainbow Knight posted:i'm just saying that he's unhinged, not that he's a badass rebel. he might be suggestible, but he's also a dumb idiot who will capsize the whole thing just to deal with some petty drama. Granting your garbage hypothetical, a President Biden will hurt everyone his donors tell him to hurt for whatever reason they tell him. Trump will deliberately target minorities preferentially, because he genuinely doesn't think non-straight white males are people. An ethno-nationalist presidency is, in fact, inherently worse than a blatant authoritarian presidency that professes to believe "...all Men are Created Equal...". President Biden will be raw sewage; making everyone sick. President Trump will be raw sewage mixed with radioactive waste; makes everyone sick, causes cancer, has a half-life that's longer than we can reasonably expect the United States to survive. Not being able to see that one option is preferable to the other is either a position of enormous privilege or willful ignorance. Don't vote for Biden by all means (I'm not going to), but an inability to admit that Biden's poo poo policies are going to be better than Trump's is a serious flaw.
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Aug 11, 2020 20:32
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LegendaryFrog posted:The recent elections of people like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Cori Bush gives me a lot of hope that we will have a generation of politicians to choose from that will serve progressive values at least as well as Bernie Sanders. The people on the streets are setting the stage necessary to actually get one of those over the finish line in a national election. For every leftist you elect there are as many or more reactionaries making their way into the halls of power. Don't you remember when they tried to astroturf a centrist Squad of women cops to counter AOC et al? Remember Buttigieg, the mayor who made it his personal mission to purge black leadership from the halls of power in South Bend, being paraded as the ideal of what Boomers think Millennials should be? There have been some minor victories, but at this pace actual progressive policy isn't going to start getting passed until 2040 at the earliest, and that assumes no massive backlash that sweeps a Turbo Trump into power four to eight years from now.
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Aug 11, 2020 20:34
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StratGoatCom posted:You don't get it do you? We had a decade to do poo poo the comparatively painless way, and Biden will squander, at unrealistically best, 4 years of it, if not fritter it away by handing it to the next repub monster, assuming said monster doesn't successfully end democracy. the idea that a Biden presidency necessarily entails a fascist winning in '24 is doombrained and basically impossible to falsify
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Aug 11, 2020 20:36
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StratGoatCom posted:I worry that (A) the Biden wing of the party knows this and wants them gone - all their actions outside of some hurried backpedaling recently suggest they want to jettison the minority and activist parts of their base, and they will work hard to do so, and be emboldened by Biden, and (b) by then, the damage will be unfixable. We had to fight to even get someone under 55 to speak the convention. AOC going to speak now but this was 4 days ago: https://www.politico.com/news/2020/08/07/who-will-speak-at-dnc-392533 politico posted:But some moderate Democrats said privately that it would be harmful to the party if she got a prime-time speaking position at the same time Trump is trying to link Biden to her in an effort to paint him as an “empty vessel” for the progressive left.
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Aug 11, 2020 20:36
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Son of Thunderbeast posted:Why should anyone put in effort engaging you in good faith when this is the attitude you approach people and their issues with? it's really hard to believe people are interested in arguing in good faith when the dominant narrative of the thread is that a fascist victory in '24 is guaranteed
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Aug 11, 2020 20:37
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Relevant Tangent posted:the idea that a Biden presidency necessarily entails a fascist winning in '24 is doombrained and basically impossible to falsify I cited 30 years of empirical evidence that militates toward it. We've had, what, 3 separate natural experiments that suggest that conclusion, that a failed dem presidency means a truly horrible repub is to come.
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Aug 11, 2020 20:38
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Relevant Tangent posted:the idea that a Biden presidency necessarily entails a fascist winning in '24 is doombrained and basically impossible to falsify The last two Dem presidents were followed up by fascists so thinking it will happen again doesn't seem all that far-fetched
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Aug 11, 2020 20:39
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Solaris 2.0 posted:This is the circle we keep coming back to though. Trump reelected does not mean we get Leftist Savior in 2024 if anything it means the end of the Republic and all the Bad Things that would entail. doombrained, they sense themselves imperiled and decide that the species must be
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Aug 11, 2020 20:41
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Relevant Tangent posted:Granting your garbage hypothetical, a President Biden will hurt everyone his donors tell him to hurt for whatever reason they tell him. Trump will deliberately target minorities preferentially, because he genuinely doesn't think non-straight white males are people. An ethno-nationalist presidency is, in fact, inherently worse than a blatant authoritarian presidency that professes to believe "...all Men are Created Equal...". President Biden will be raw sewage; making everyone sick. President Trump will be raw sewage mixed with radioactive waste; makes everyone sick, causes cancer, has a half-life that's longer than we can reasonably expect the United States to survive. Not being able to see that one option is preferable to the other is either a position of enormous privilege or willful ignorance. Don't vote for Biden by all means (I'm not going to), but an inability to admit that Biden's poo poo policies are going to be better than Trump's is a serious flaw. i’m agreeing with you you doofus lol. my point is exactly what you’re saying. while i’m of the opinion that trump is a worse choice, i’m not saying biden will be better, specifically because of what you said: biden will do what he’s told. hence my asking of what happens when biden gets in office and his donors tell him to do the same thing as trump. he’s going to do whatever that is, but there will be a thin veneer of “respectability” or whatever
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Aug 11, 2020 20:46
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Wicked Them Beats posted:For every leftist you elect there are as many or more reactionaries making their way into the halls of power. Don't you remember when they tried to astroturf a centrist Squad of women cops to counter AOC et al? Remember Buttigieg, the mayor who made it his personal mission to purge black leadership from the halls of power in South Bend, being paraded as the ideal of what Boomers think Millennials should be? What qualifies as progressive policy here? Because "progressives" aren't some new thing that came about in the middle of Obama's presidency. There is more than a century of history of a progressive moment and electoral success in getting meaningful progressive policy passed, up to and including recent history (just look at how many states and cities have passed minimum wage increases in the last 6 years). The nature of progressive policy is that is is regularly trying to push further than we are right now... hence "progressive", but sometimes it feels like that causes people to assume the baseline of where we are now has always been the middle, and thus unintentionally erases any victories achieved prior to that exact moment. There is an ocean of distance between where we are and where we need to get to, but I neither understand nor agree with the assertion that we haven't even started leaving the shore (not saying you were suggesting this).
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Aug 11, 2020 20:47
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There is hope! I'm not doom posting. But we need to either destroy the right wing of the Demcoratic party or destroy the Democratic party entirely to have a chance at the real change needed. That's the only way you get good stuff in 2022 and 2024. Yes this means accepting four more years of Trumpo, but we are getting four more years of horrible right wing rapist racist presidency either way. Or you could have a violent revolution but I'm hoping we can do things without having to do that.
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Aug 11, 2020 20:48
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Solaris 2.0 posted:But this thread actively wants not just him, but most every Democrat to lose and Trump and his cronies to win and I find that unacceptable, stupid, and literally sentencing people to death. I love this tactic where instead of quoting people you just claim that the whole thread is saying these things
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Aug 11, 2020 20:49
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Rainbow Knight posted:i’m agreeing with you you doofus lol. my point is exactly what you’re saying. while i’m of the opinion that trump is a worse choice, i’m not saying biden will be better, specifically because of what you said: biden will do what he’s told. hence my asking of what happens when biden gets in office and his donors tell him to do the same thing as trump. he’s going to do whatever that is, but there will be a thin veneer of “respectability” or whatever his donors won't tell him to do the same thing as trump's whims is what it boils down to trump's mad whims do not in fact constitute any kind of policy that any of biden's terrible donors want an inability to see that "gently caress you poors" is different from "gently caress you MINORITIES" is dumb
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Aug 11, 2020 20:49
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i get that people feel the need to vote for the lesser evil, but if it’s any consolation i will abstain from voting for the people who don’t feel like they have that easy choice  ps: biden voters are scabs 
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Aug 11, 2020 20:51
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Booourns posted:I love this tactic where instead of quoting people you just claim that the whole thread is saying these things The Post Directly Above Yours posted:There is hope! I'm not doom posting.
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Aug 11, 2020 20:52
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