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indigi posted:yeah but that’s not really cheating, that’s just politics the American historical tradition usually labels anything less than a 100% fair fight as being corrupt
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Aug 13, 2020 19:22
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Peanut President posted:Bernie got cheated pretty much conclusively and Corbyn was victim of a real deal conspiracy to make sure Labour would stay a center right party and not rock the boat. The youth failed to show up, and everyone else voted with middle class interests in mind. It's loving depressing but the general population is far more right wing than most care to talk about.
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Aug 13, 2020 19:27
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White Rock posted:Pretty sure beyond even without all behind the scenes fuckery, vote count delays and media erasure etc, Bernie was lost as soon as everyone cept Biden dropped out.  the youth vote was great, it was that olds smashed turnout records
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Aug 13, 2020 19:31
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PERPETUAL IDIOT posted:How did Bernie get cheated? the results for some of the states were outside of the margin of error of exit polling to the extent that most people would consider fraud voter suppression iowa fuckery etc
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Aug 13, 2020 19:59
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Media blitz after biden won the single state he was expected to probably didn't help.
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Aug 13, 2020 20:12
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White Rock posted:the general population is far more right wing than most care to talk about. people say this kind of stuff all the time but then when you look at opinion polls for more generally lefty issues (i.e. universal healthcare) there's majority support for it, sometimes overwhelming support among Dems and independents. idk how to reconcile that though
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Aug 13, 2020 21:11
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Ferrinus posted:hey, gently caress you! if you're really concerned with the historical victory of the working class you can refrain from rape jokes rape isn't the joke
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Aug 13, 2020 21:33
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indigi posted:people say this kind of stuff all the time but then when you look at opinion polls for more generally lefty issues (i.e. universal healthcare) there's majority support for it, sometimes overwhelming support among Dems and independents. idk how to reconcile that though i mean i think people often have surprisingly lefty views, but they understand the world through the lenses provided by capital. so they get diverted into electoralism, or teaching underprivileged kids to code, or whatever there also really is a huge generational divide. imo its the combination of generational poverty, changes in the education system, and exposure to lefty agitprop online. not that there's a zoomer vanguard or whatever but i think younger people really are a lot more able to hear and internalize leftist arguments. Ardennes posted:It goes to back to fact that the current Western elite refuses any deviation period including on climate change. any deviation on anything really. gotta extract that surplus value
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Aug 13, 2020 21:41
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Kurnugia posted:rape isn't the joke haha, hey, calm down. what i meant when i used the sober, serious phrase "a miraculous procession of assrape" was
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Aug 13, 2020 22:04
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didnt read that as a rape joke but even if it was lol at getting mad over it in a discussion of its good these people were purged and later executed/assassinated for tcrimes they never committed
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Aug 13, 2020 22:35
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pretty hosed up that the communist party made the guy who tried to poison lenin in 1918 the general secretary of the comintern. even more hosed up they put his collaborator in charge of the army during a civil war. seems like some rookie mistakes, but I guess it WAS the first ever working class revolution so its easy to see how they would overlook some stuff like that
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Aug 13, 2020 22:39
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apropos to nothing posted:pretty hosed up that the communist party made the guy who tried to poison lenin in 1918 the general secretary of the comintern. even more hosed up they put his collaborator in charge of the army during a civil war. seems like some rookie mistakes, but I guess it WAS the first ever working class revolution so its easy to see how they would overlook some stuff like that again, you need to actually perform a dialectical synthesis here rather than throwing random tidbits to and fro and hoping that you come out looking good as a process. IF many people could be accused of sabotage thanks to ridiculous, half-formed triviliaties like the ones you list BUT in fact most of those people were not accused of sabotage because of those things, THEN the actual criteria by which someone would be purged/exiled/executed must have been more serious, such as, for instance, constant dissension and refusal to fall into line despite repeated opportunities to make their case, decisive party-wide votes, call-ins, reprimands, etc
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Aug 13, 2020 22:48
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indigi posted:people say this kind of stuff all the time but then when you look at opinion polls for more generally lefty issues (i.e. universal healthcare) there's majority support for it, sometimes overwhelming support among Dems and independents. idk how to reconcile that though theres a marxist concept of subjective vs objective factors. objective factors are like the period of time your in, poo poo you cant control, the situation youre in regarding world history, economics, etc. subjective factors are the strength and organization of working class organizations and revolutionaries specifically. think its fair to say people today arent more reactionary than they were between like 1850-1950 when revolutions were popping off in every corner of the globe. think the major issue in the present time is the subjective factor, there isnt a strong base of revolutionary cadre or even mass reformist organizations like there were during previous eras. the parties of the 2nd international arent even social democratic in nature anymore, most are liberal capitalist and have degenerated entirely, the old stalinist parties have ceased to exist or become irrelevant with the collapse of the ussr and there arent really any other organizations which have the strength or experience to guide and shape the mass movements which have erupted over the past 2 decades. kinda see our present moment as analogous to the period in europe surrounding the revolutions of 1848 where there is mass revolutionary movements occurring but there are not the parties or organizations capable of channeling those movements. thats why its important now to be building those organizations now. think the arab spring and sudanese revolutions are great examples of this in recent times because despite being led primarily by workers, especially in the case of sudan, most have failed to even win democratic reforms. in the case of sudan the revolution was still willing to make back channel negotiations with the military dictators even after it was clear they had lost all power. what they lacked was a revolutionary party and where one did exist, the old communist parties often fell back on liberal demands and refused to raise ideas or demands which went beyond democratic reforms. kind of similar to the french communists in 68.
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Aug 13, 2020 22:51
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Ferrinus posted:again, you need to actually perform a dialectical synthesis here rather than throwing random tidbits to and fro and hoping that you come out looking good as a process. IF many people could be accused of sabotage thanks to ridiculous, half-formed triviliaties like the ones you list BUT in fact most of those people were not accused of sabotage because of those things, THEN the actual criteria by which someone would be purged/exiled/executed must have been more serious, such as, for instance, constant dissension and refusal to fall into line despite repeated opportunities to make their case, decisive party-wide votes, call-ins, reprimands, etc lol so "yes its true that bukharin never tried to assassinate lenin and overthrow the government as we have alleged, however this only proves even MORESO why he should be executed because the fact that we would even accuse him of such a heinous act points to even greater sins, such as not shutting up in meetings"
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Aug 13, 2020 22:54
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apropos to nothing posted:lol so "yes its true that bukharin never tried to assassinate lenin and overthrow the government as we have alleged, however this only proves even MORESO why he should be executed because the fact that we would even accuse him of such a heinous act points to even greater sins, such as not shutting up in meetings" you're doing it again! you're trying to smuggle in AGAIN the idea that it must have been some dumb superficial nonsense that got people purged, as though you're the first human in history to whom it's occurred that this kind of intra-party struggle is serious business that can't be taken lightly and all the people actually involved must have just been so dumb and goddamn crazy that they'd execute people at the drop of a hat
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Aug 13, 2020 23:03
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im giving you the actual allegations that were brought against bukharin, that he plotted to assassinate lenin and stalin from 1918 onwards, in collaboration with trotsky. if you find this to be completely farcical, then maybe you can appreciate why the purges and show trials were not based on any sound political basis. if you can still not appreciate this, then i guess im just left with lol
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Aug 13, 2020 23:19
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My take on this whole purge discourse is that if you look at the American government and/or even just the Democratic party, there are obviously people there who are going to need to be purged by any left-wing group that manages to take enough power to let them engage in purges, and so while we can't change the past, I think frowning upon the concept of purges in general is unproductive seeing as how it's a tool that will have to be wielded eventually.
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Aug 13, 2020 23:23
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I just don't want to be purged for loving Propagandhi, is that too much to ask
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Aug 13, 2020 23:37
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indigi posted:I just don't want to be purged for loving Propagandhi, is that too much to ask yes
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Aug 13, 2020 23:42
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apropos to nothing posted:lol so "yes its true that bukharin never tried to assassinate lenin and overthrow the government as we have alleged, however this only proves even MORESO why he should be executed because the fact that we would even accuse him of such a heinous act points to even greater sins, such as not shutting up in meetings" the dialectical analsysis of the incessant power struggles within the malformed and utterly directionless power structure of the soviet union, simply requires you to admit that their violent conclusion was majjor proggressive, and that you ahve been owned. good bbye and good NIGHT good doggie
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Aug 13, 2020 23:51
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i thinkk i needd to wash my keyboardd tomorow
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Aug 13, 2020 23:54
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Ferrinus posted:again, you need to actually perform a dialectical synthesis here rather than throwing random tidbits to and fro and hoping that you come out looking good as a process. IF many people could be accused of sabotage thanks to ridiculous, half-formed triviliaties like the ones you list BUT in fact most of those people were not accused of sabotage because of those things, THEN the actual criteria by which someone would be purged/exiled/executed must have been more serious, such as, for instance, constant dissension and refusal to fall into line despite repeated opportunities to make their case, decisive party-wide votes, call-ins, reprimands, etc sometimes, for trying to poison her, the Queen batters you on the head with a serving tray and sometimes she sends you to Tyburn
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Aug 13, 2020 23:55
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apropos to nothing posted:im giving you the actual allegations that were brought against bukharin, that he plotted to assassinate lenin and stalin from 1918 onwards, in collaboration with trotsky. if you find this to be completely farcical, then maybe you can appreciate why the purges and show trials were not based on any sound political basis. if you can still not appreciate this, then i guess im just left with lol i'm not calling the allegations farcical, i'm saying YOU'RE treating the actual PEOPLE INVOLVED as farcical, as though they were capering clowns with no understanding that they were making such serious and sweeping allegations and who were either acting totally at random or at best were sublimating their personal annoyance with bukharin's talking too much at meetings (as we well know, it was trotsky who'd never shut up) into these charges of high treason here's the thing, though: everyone involved in bukharin's arrest and trial was an adult human being, not a caricature from Animal Farm. they could think about what the things they were saying would sound like before saying them, and create mental models in their heads of how other people might react to those things. when people do something that strikes you as unusual, you're supposed to try to figure out how their inclinations and the context they were in led them to do that thing rather than assume they are actually looney tunes characters off the top of my head, the most cynical, but still reasonable, interpretation of bukharin's trial was that bukharin - as one of the remaining old bolsheviks but also a right-winger who supported the NEP and further liberalization and opposed collectivization and a move back towards a command economy - represented a serious political threat to stalin's clique. stalin and his cronies wouldn't be able to carry out their five year plans as intended if they continued to face opposition from bukharin and his faction, and so they embellished bukharin's existing antagonism with the current order into a full-blown conspiracy theory that allowed them to liquidate him and thereby cement their own power. awful! immoral! but not STUPID. like, it wasn't actually the case that anyone who'd ever had lunch with trotsky in the cafeteria was sentenced to death or that simply vouching disagreement to anything on any level would immediately mark you for imprisonment or worse. now, i've never actually looked into the specifics of bukharin's case so i don't know the extent to which he was credibly involved in a rightist conspiracy as opposed to just being a rightist. certainly the "from all the way back to 1918" thing sounds like someone was gilding the lily. but this is actually unrelated to your repeated claims that disagreement wasn't allowed, that anyone who'd ever rubbed shoulders with martov had a target on their back, whatever. people do things for reasons! Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 00:31 on Aug 14, 2020 |
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Aug 14, 2020 00:09
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personally i like the clown noses in appropos of nothinng caricatures, although im not entirely sure what else they contain.... except trotskyism 
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Aug 14, 2020 00:14
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lol i never argued the mother fuckers were stupid, im arguing they betrayed the socialist revolutionary movement by killing many of its leaders and then, worst of all, lying to the working class about why they did it. theres no greater crime than to lie to the working class. but alas, after all these years so many people still insist on repeating yet another thermidor, and so it is ever the fate of the revolutionaries of 1796 to be cut down by the revolutionaries of 1792.
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Aug 14, 2020 00:45
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you did insidously imply that some of those involved were, in fact, fungi
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Aug 14, 2020 00:59
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https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1294047343151583236?s=20
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Aug 14, 2020 02:17
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sigh
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Aug 14, 2020 02:30
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is this not a good example of why electoralism is a bourgeois trap you not only will always fail at winning because it's a rigged game, but also they'll dilute your own revolutionary politics into nothing but reformism? feel like Marx was pretty clear about this
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Aug 14, 2020 02:53
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Serious question here: if being purged is just losing the prestige and influence of your position, as opposed to imprisonment of assassination, who the gently caress cares? Like current political parties can fire most people without it making the news, and more important people are "asked to resign" all the time. One can effectively be blacklisted from all political power for not conforming to positions the elite considers acceptable without a formal process, decision, or appeal. This is true about employment in general as well, not just the apex of political power. And if you do the equivalent of what the purged people are accused of, you will be arrested as a spy. Of course, we've just had multiple "purges" of the American civil service by Republican administrations, for basically not being the right flavor of liberal. As I see it, you aren't even attacking Stalinistist purges, you're defending the idea that they were something special and different from our own system that doesn't happen here, not business as usual which doesn't raise an eyebrow when it happens daily all around us.
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Aug 14, 2020 03:56
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Hodgepodge posted:Serious question here: if being purged is just losing the prestige and influence of your position, as opposed to imprisonment of assassination, who the gently caress cares?
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Aug 14, 2020 05:11
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should look more like...quote:even if it was lol at getting mad at goons for being insensitive, even about rape, because they don't care about either JainDoh fucked around with this message at 05:49 on Aug 14, 2020 |
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Aug 14, 2020 05:46
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apropos to nothing posted:lol i never argued the mother fuckers were stupid, im arguing they betrayed the socialist revolutionary movement by killing many of its leaders and then, worst of all, lying to the working class about why they did it. theres no greater crime than to lie to the working class. but alas, after all these years so many people still insist on repeating yet another thermidor, and so it is ever the fate of the revolutionaries of 1796 to be cut down by the revolutionaries of 1792. you have repeatedly griped that all dissent was quashed, debate and democratic discussion was impossible, people would be put away simply for having made the wrong friend five years ago, the bolsheviks would have purged lenin himself for being friends with martov, and so on. all ridiculous. political infighting is a fact of life and if anything communist purges, as opposed to the liberal purges as hodgepodge points out above, often involved dialogue, explicit paths to returning to good standing, etc now, if you want to audible from the general "party purges was a betrayal of the working class; dissent was suppressed through terror and there was no internal democracy" to the specific "executing bukharin was a betrayal of the working class", we actually do have to reckon with what kind of threat bukharin posed to the ussr's development and whether he was actually tied to a rightist conspiracy, as he confessed at length (while stridently denying various other charges). again, though, you have to reckon with the fact that most people did not get purged, and many purgings that did happen looked like lovestone's (or, hell, trotsky's) rather than like bukharin's
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Aug 14, 2020 07:39
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I guess the lesson is, don't get old, folks
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Aug 14, 2020 08:14
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being purged is the cancel culture of 1936
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Aug 14, 2020 08:24
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in conclusion, the ussr was a land of contrasts
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Aug 14, 2020 08:44
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Mr. Lobe posted:I guess the lesson is, don't get old, folks my dream is to be purged young
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Aug 14, 2020 09:05
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The thing I'm trying to get at again and again but maybe haven't managed to highlight enough is that one can't make abstract generalizations from what happened in the USSR in the 30's or the war years. None of it makes sense without historical context, and it was a pretty abrupt change. Check out the Ryutin affair: the forced collectivization period made much of the opposition flirt with open rebellion, a coup was an explicit part of the platform. Where's the basis for trust after that? For all those people who didn't align with the platform hard enough to be convicted of anything, but didn't align against it either? Everything that happened between that and the show trials should be looked at taking that into account. Since that point, it's clear that everyone is certain that they're living with snakes who are after them. What are called purges are now eliminations of perceived traitors that aren't considered to deserve a fair fight. Cruacially, Stalin's side of the escalation over the years mostly happened through the opposite of purges: accepting in enough new blood to seriously disrupt the playing field for the old blood. That was Stalin's main "anti-democratic" tendency: filling the room with people who his opponents had little influence over, who didn't have that crucial history with them. Stalin was more immediately understandable and likable than pretty much any of them and could easily win new people over to his side. This wasn't comparable to some purity-obsessed sect purging itself into oblivion, it was growing pains! The party didn't have any plan for how to transform from a tight-knit group of professional revolutionaries into a governing party of a country that aspired to be a genuine federal democratic republic, and paid for it. Purges could even have a de-escalating role by fighting the opportunist accusations that Stalin was filling the party with unprincipled bureaucrats who would sink it.
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Aug 14, 2020 09:19
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i dream to live in an america where someone online claims that the evil socialist government of america drove them into exile, and then when you go on their social media it's all helicopter memes and holiday photos of them at their villa
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Aug 14, 2020 09:45
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without resolution and synthesis of the the fundamental contradiction between the power of state and party, there will be blood every single time we try. conflicts without solutions are always resolved, and without a way to manage, channel and react (in a non-violent manner) to the inherent tribalism of all human behaviour in conflicting positions of power, the solution is always disintegration. or extermination
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Aug 14, 2020 11:23
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