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chumbler posted:Shoutouts to the A-LAWS commander that they made fat and ugly so that you know he's bad. Shoutouts to said Fat Commander being in charge of a satellite laser station they named "Memento Mori" whose sole purpose is to death star dissident cities.
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Aug 17, 2020 22:38
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i like that his name is goodman and the gundam wiki says 'ironically, his last name never fits his motives.'
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Aug 17, 2020 22:40
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Kanos posted:Shoutouts to said Fat Commander being in charge of a satellite laser station they named "Memento Mori" whose sole purpose is to death star dissident cities. And they have a second one right behind the first, just so the heroes have to blow it up twice. The further 00 went, the more it shifted to "Celestial Being Good! Whoever Celestial Being fights, bad!", which loses the main draw of "Terrorists declare war on the world to create world peace". The Trinities being the "bad guy" part of the original plan could work, but they were too easily dismissed as people corrupting the plan for their own ends, rather than moral dilemmas arising from disagreement with what the plan required. It's interesting IBO was being worked on while 00 was being released, since it really leans into "The protagonists might well be the bad guys" which 00 lightly flirted with before going fully into a Zeta retread.
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Aug 17, 2020 23:06
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Endorph posted:i like that his name is goodman and the gundam wiki says 'ironically, his last name never fits his motives.' A Hideo Kojima game
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Aug 17, 2020 23:10
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00 I think was very unwilling to let things go and that made it suffer a lot. The show desperately needed consequences and it retreated at full force away from anything that might remotely upset the audience. Half the cast has clones or duplicates or identical twin brothers and even if their personalities are different it ends up feeling like an unwillingness to let characters go. Patrick Colasour's basically Homer Simpsoning his way through life is an amusing joke but kind of suffers from the fact that the rest of the cast basically does too, just with less self-awareness. I am sure at least some of this was being told "No, MORE marketable. MORE. EVEN MORE" so I can't really blame the writers but it still sucks.
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Aug 17, 2020 23:21
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heck with all nena accomplished in s2 (gently caress all) they might as well have had her die in s1 say what you will about ibo at least it was willing to commit
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Aug 17, 2020 23:28
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Speaking of IBO that's where I'm currently at in my watch of all the main gundam series (except AGE because I heard it was irredeemable trash). Do people not like this show? It seems like one of the best ones to me 33 episodes in.
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Aug 17, 2020 23:36
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IBO is very highly regarded AFAIK. My 00s2 hot take is that it was fine, actually. I'm in the middle of a rewatch right now, and Saji's struggle to overcome his faith in the system and stop being an unwitting collaborationist sure strikes home differently nowadays.
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Aug 17, 2020 23:44
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Classon Ave. Robot posted:Speaking of IBO that's where I'm currently at in my watch of all the main gundam series (except AGE because I heard it was irredeemable trash). Do people not like this show? It seems like one of the best ones to me 33 episodes in. It's generally well liked but has some writing stuff that really bothers people. My own personal issues are: A) Cartoonishly evil villains in a way that feels like it clashes with the setting Some of this is intentional but it loves to fall back on "this person is super duper EXTRA evil!!" to make sure people know. S2 is a bit better about this but still has its problems. B) I really hate the cheap/repetitive way it handles death prior to near the end. It's either "Character mentions they have a relative -> Relative shows up to die" or "Character has a bit of plot focus -> Character dies." It became so predictable it was cheap C) Most of the conflict feels pretty one-sided with everyone either overtly or secretly on Tekkadan's side or cackling madman villains except Rustal. (Who is, admittedly, a very solid villain.) D) Literally everything involving Naze Turbine.
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Aug 17, 2020 23:44
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Classon Ave. Robot posted:Speaking of IBO that's where I'm currently at in my watch of all the main gundam series (except AGE because I heard it was irredeemable trash). Do people not like this show? It seems like one of the best ones to me 33 episodes in. Endorph fucked around with this message at 23:48 on Aug 17, 2020 |
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Aug 17, 2020 23:45
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ImpAtom posted:It's generally well liked but has some writing stuff that really bothers people. Gaelio and Carta are generally shown as good (or at least, not terrible) people for their screentime. It's explicitly noted that, unlike most of Gjallarhorn, Carta's not remotely corrupt. She's just... herself.
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Aug 18, 2020 00:26
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I can definitely see the "last day on the force" thing, but the villains mostly feel pretty reasonable. Most of them (other than Gaelio, Carta, and Ein) are just "I'm getting paid to kill you" or "I can make money by killing you" or "I've been ordered to kill you" or "killing you will bring me political power", things like that. In real life Obama or GWB don't go out and murder orphans by hand, but like it feels more real to the current political moment than some of the other gundam series where two or more nations go directly to all-out war like its WW2 or something. There's nothing wrong with that as a story, but it's nice to have a change of pace like this. Also I really like how they chose to use physical weaponry rather than energy swords and laser beams, it feels a lot more real and brutal than a lot of other series. SEED was especially bad for this in the later parts (and doubly so for Destiny) where it kinda felt like everyone was firing lasers all over the place at each other all the time.
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Aug 18, 2020 00:49
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SEED honestly had substantially more onscreen brutal ultraviolence than IBO does. IBO has the odd cockpit crush death, but it didn't have people being microwaved until they exploded like blood balloons, or someone screaming with their hands held up as they get visibly sawed in half by a beam sword, or someone's entire body except for their flying severed head getting obliterated by a mobile suit hucking a shield into their cockpit.
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Aug 18, 2020 00:53
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chiasaur11 posted:Gaelio and Carta are generally shown as good (or at least, not terrible) people for their screentime. It's explicitly noted that, unlike most of Gjallarhorn, Carta's not remotely corrupt. Carta is literally a posturing cartoonish villain with a ridiculous design. That is her entire thing. It serves a purpose showing how overmatched she is but I mean she is a ridiculous character. Classon Ave. Robot posted:I can definitely see the "last day on the force" thing, but the villains mostly feel pretty reasonable. Most of them (other than Gaelio, Carta, and Ein) are just "I'm getting paid to kill you" or "I can make money by killing you" or "I've been ordered to kill you" or "killing you will bring me political power", things like that. In real life Obama or GWB don't go out and murder orphans by hand, but like it feels more real to the current political moment than some of the other gundam series where two or more nations go directly to all-out war like its WW2 or something. There's nothing wrong with that as a story, but it's nice to have a change of pace like this. I mean if nothing else the Brewers are just dudes from Fist of the North Star who literally enslave children to participate in their murder scheme.
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Aug 18, 2020 00:56
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Endorph posted:heck with all nena accomplished in s2 (gently caress all) they might as well have had her die in s1 Usually though the end of season 1 very much didn’t.
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Aug 18, 2020 00:59
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Kanos posted:SEED honestly had substantially more onscreen brutal ultraviolence than IBO does. IBO has the odd cockpit crush death, but it didn't have people being microwaved until they exploded like blood balloons, or someone screaming with their hands held up as they get visibly sawed in half by a beam sword, or someone's entire body except for their flying severed head getting obliterated by a mobile suit hucking a shield into their cockpit. i do get what he means by the laser spam though. i think rather than 'brutal,' 'visceral' is the word id use. combat in ibo feels a lot more dangerous and in the moment than just random beam spam all over the place.
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Aug 18, 2020 01:16
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Carta was willing to have a duel and give people prep time to prepare instead of just attacking and causing a bloobath. She's naive and aristocratic but not evil.
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Aug 18, 2020 01:19
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Monaghan posted:Carta was willing to have a duel and give people prep time to prepare instead of just attacking and causing a bloobath. She's naive and aristocratic but not evil. More that her evil is banal and systematic than mustache twirling or sociopathy. Like she's an out of touch aristocratic kook, but at the end of the day she's fighting for the oppressive system that allows her to be that.
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Aug 18, 2020 01:34
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Endorph posted:the most hosed up death in seed is that lady from stargazer who gets impaled over and over by a squad of bucue's mouth beam sabers Yeah that's a better word for it. In SEED it's hard to care about what's happening in a fight beyond "is the story going to decide that someone gets hit by one of these millions of lasers" rather than feeling like "oh poo poo X thing just happened so this character could be in trouble". Obviously the combat in a gundam show is still a vehicle for the plot to happen, but it feels a lot more real in IBO than in some of the others because you're actually watching people move their physical suits around and smash each other with rifles and swords. It may be less graphically violent than some of the other shows, but blood and violence aren't the parts that make something interesting to watch, for me. Not that I don't still have and appreciate flashbacks about how horrible and violent Victory was. Rabbi Tupac posted:More that her evil is banal and systematic than mustache twirling or sociopathy. Yeah this is what I like about it, the villains aren't trying to do some grandiose take-over-the-world idea, they're just assholes working in an evil system that they are unwilling or unable to see for what it is (like cops). It feels more real to me because those are the kinds of evil that we're living through now. I'm sure it'd be the opposite for people who grew up in the aftermath of WW2, who would create an anime like 0079 where the enemy is a violent fascist regime that wants to create the ubermensch and replace humanity. ImpAtom posted:I mean if nothing else the Brewers are just dudes from Fist of the North Star who literally enslave children to participate in their murder scheme. That's true, but I felt watching them that they embodied a certain disdain for human life encouraged and enforced by a political system that treats human beings like garbage. When I watch Tekkaden fight them I may not feel like I'm watching someone in a specific ideological conflict against an opponent who's fighting for what they believe in, I feel like I'm watching them fight the representatives of an entire system of human behaviour and belief and exploitation. Just a bunch of destructive selfish assholes who own slaves and murder people for profit, just like in real life. It may not be as grandiose and ideological as something like Wing (which is also good and fun and insane and hilarious), but I appreciate how different it is from that kind of story. Classon Ave. Robot fucked around with this message at 01:56 on Aug 18, 2020 |
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Aug 18, 2020 01:47
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ImpAtom posted:Half the cast has clones or duplicates or identical twin brothers and even if their personalities are different it ends up feeling like an unwillingness to let characters go. Lockon having a twin brother is the only case of that I can recall where it actually mattered in any meaningful way. The only other clone I can recall is Tieria having a twin, but even then, it was just a thing that existed and I don't recall it having any import, to Tieria or anyone else. Innovades like Tieria were a series of clones, with one that looked female and one that looked male for the majority but I don't recall anyone beyond Lockon whose visual twin was of any consequence.
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Aug 18, 2020 02:10
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Every time I try to watch IBO (going on 3) i really really like it until Naze shows up. He doesn't make me like, angry or violently ill, but he's bad enough that I pretty much lose all desire to continue binge watching and then I don't pick the show back up for another several months. at which point I don't remember what's going on terribly well so I continue to not pick it up until I'm ready to start from the beginning. Then Naze shows up and rinse and repeat Kinda blows because IBO is extremely my poo poo otherwise
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Aug 18, 2020 02:57
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I feel like IBO is a case where it feels more brutal because there's actual "corpses" (usually in the form of busted up mobile suits) vs people/MS's being stylistically cut in half and blown up. It kind of forces you to imagine what happened to the person rather than making a show of it. Basically the Jaws priniciple but with ultraviolence instead of horror. War in the Pocket is another example of this but it's more graceful with the execution.
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Aug 18, 2020 02:58
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At least they made Naze look the part. Greasy haired sleazeball in a fedora.
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Aug 18, 2020 03:07
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Still going off memories of 00 s2 rather than a fresh watch, but I kind of agree that the basic elements for it are mostly right but it just comes together too sloppily and hamfistedly. Authoritarians taking over as a united government is a fine story beat because of course that was going to be a result of the old dead guy's stupid plan, but they go too far in the mustache twirling direction. The crew having to rebuild and fix what got screwed up by the dumb and still ongoing original plan is fine as a driving motivation, but because CB as a larger organization has never really been fleshed out, it feels kind of arbitrary that they just can do that. Saji and Louise having continued involvement in the story as former bystanders dragged into it on each side is good, but it gives us the world's unluckiest boy with no obvious reason for him to be most of the places he's in, and Louise is now somehow a super soldier piloting an advanced weapon rather than just a regular pilot. Sergei getting iced has no real purpose other than Ramba Ral has to die and they needed a way to make Marie relevant again but couldn't just make her relevant on her own I guess. Liu Mei betrays the rest of CB for no real reason other than they needed to tie up her involvement I guess, and Nena is along for the ride, when they didn't really need to even do anything with them other than maybe have Nena get killed in the final battle or something. The innovades hardly come across as characters with any independence or much backstory, which to be fair I guess is the point for at least one of them, so Anew falls completely flat other than Lockon 2 needs some pathos. Setsuna's character change also seems to come out of nowhere, but I could just be misremembering. chumbler fucked around with this message at 03:12 on Aug 18, 2020 |
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Aug 18, 2020 03:08
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Kanos posted:SEED honestly had substantially more onscreen brutal ultraviolence than IBO does. IBO has the odd cockpit crush death, but it didn't have people being microwaved until they exploded like blood balloons, or someone screaming with their hands held up as they get visibly sawed in half by a beam sword, or someone's entire body except for their flying severed head getting obliterated by a mobile suit hucking a shield into their cockpit. Yeah as I've said before the way SEED handles violence is just gross and horribly out of place in a franchise meant to sell model kits to children and is pretty much literally the only reason I've never been able to revisit SEED
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Aug 18, 2020 03:15
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Rabbi Tupac posted:More that her evil is banal and systematic than mustache twirling or sociopathy. She's also fighting for the system that's prevented large scale warfare in the Solar System for centuries. There's not much attention drawn to it, but Tekkadan kicks off a colony drop as a distraction when they're heading for Earth. (Which they only do working under the assumption someone will stop it, but they don't exactly broadcast that either.) One of the things that makes the conflict in IBO interesting is that the monstrous and corrupt system is still mostly serving its original purpose. Unlike the Titans or the A-Laws, the solar system is a safer place with Gjallarhorn around. Tekkadan's victories at Dort and Edmonton were good things that made people's lives better, but they still had negative consequences. People like Carta were trying their best to do The Right Thing, and Carta even cared about doing it The Right Way (thus her utterly ridiculous behavior on the negative end, and her not being corrupt on the positive). But she didn't bother to ask the right questions, and that eventually got her killed. (Both due to being on the wrong side, and because McGillis was trying to get her killed) In the second season, though, there's a reversal. Rustal and his faction know about the evils of Gjallarhorn, and even are willing to work towards reforms. (Julieta's unknowing role as Rustal's heir is important here. Without noticing that, some of Rustal's actions are hard to put into proper context.) But in the end, they still think the good the system does is worth enough to grudgingly tolerate (and even participate in) its evils for the present. Meanwhile, where Tekkadan's first season role was as knights for the maiden of the revolution, in the second season they're hired guns, ignoring the political consequences of their actions in favor of focusing on the payout. And in both seasons, the people who don't bother to consider the context of their actions pay dearly for it.
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Aug 18, 2020 03:15
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drrockso20 posted:Yeah as I've said before the way SEED handles violence is just gross and horribly out of place in a franchise meant to sell model kits to children and is pretty much literally the only reason I've never been able to revisit SEED Eh. Gundam is a franchise that also tries to explore the politics and consequences of war, and heavy violence isn't a bad way of visually getting across how hosed up war. It's meant to jar the audience. I don't think a kid seeing some heavy violence is gonna be scarred for life if its in the right context. Most gundam series have a couple visually rough deaths. I think SEED doesn't do as much to earn some of its deaths is the main issue, especially when they gruesomely kill characters who've had like, five or six lines total.
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Aug 18, 2020 03:22
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Does anyone know when GundamInfo swaps out what's available on the channel? I started watching the OG Gundam movies with a friend over the weekend and don't want them to get yoinked before we're done.
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Aug 18, 2020 03:27
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Endorph posted:Eh. Gundam is a franchise that also tries to explore the politics and consequences of war, and heavy violence isn't a bad way of visually getting across how hosed up war. It's meant to jar the audience. I don't think a kid seeing some heavy violence is gonna be scarred for life if its in the right context. Most gundam series have a couple visually rough deaths. I think SEED doesn't do as much to earn some of its deaths is the main issue, especially when they gruesomely kill characters who've had like, five or six lines total. Eh it's completely unnecessary, honestly the franchise overplays the "War is Bad" card as it is anyways
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Aug 18, 2020 03:48
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You can't overplay the "war is bad" card because war is bad It's like complaining when a fictional story has an evil CEO in it or calling it cliche when water is wet
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Aug 18, 2020 03:55
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War is actually good
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Aug 18, 2020 03:56
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I mean in SEED it's always atrocity o'clock, which can be a bit much. And then Destiny decides that actually wasn't enough so they add a few extra hours to the day for more atrocities. Though I guess that is still a lower tier than dropping literally all of the colonies or whatever in the backstory for one of the other UC series.
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Aug 18, 2020 04:09
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i mean i prefer gundam to be about something than, not about anything, and in a story about large scale conflict, politics and war are the only real themes you can explore
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Aug 18, 2020 04:33
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Pootybutt posted:lol good times. Well did they? TL Note: Graham is fully erect in this scene
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Aug 18, 2020 04:36
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i don't think i've ever seen a gundam show and thought "this needs to be more or less about war" in my experience generally gundam does a good job of being exactly as much about war as the story it's trying to tell needs to be
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Aug 18, 2020 04:48
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tsob posted:The entire point of season one Celestial Being though is that they only target legitimate military targets, and use the threat of overwhelming force against even those purely military targets to push people to stand down. They don't target anything that could have incidental civilian targets in the first place, and wouldn't attack a factory that produced munitions. Instead they'd just push the people that use those munitions for war specifically, and remove the demand that allows that factory to operate. If it still stays in operation due to demand from private citizens for criminal purposes then they aren't going to be concerned, because their only goal is to stop war and not stop all conflict, including civilian crimes. They do actually target non-military targets in the show, just as an fyi. The 3rd episode has Kyrios firebombing a drug field in order to put an end to narco wars.
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Aug 18, 2020 04:54
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Why is war in the pocket called Gundam 0080? that is most definitely not the year it takes place
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Aug 18, 2020 05:01
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drrockso20 posted:Eh it's completely unnecessary, honestly the franchise overplays the "War is Bad" card as it is anyways That sure is a take for a franchise that is explicitly about war being bad, but go off I guess? chumbler posted:I mean in SEED it's always atrocity o'clock, which can be a bit much. And then Destiny decides that actually wasn't enough so they add a few extra hours to the day for more atrocities. The thing that differentiates SEED from others is that the atrocities don't have any real gravity to them other than to just show people dying in horrible ways, which frankly gets old. Like, "oh boy we're gonna get another dude exploding like a blood balloon!" "Yep, more people shooting surrendering people." The only atrocity that felt earned or had some weight to it was the original Junius 7 attack, which I think comes from it being the casus belli for the entire conflict. The show never reckons with the energy crisis caused by the retaliation outside of Rau's recap episodes. It would have been cool to have some of the perspective characters on the coordinator side have to reckon with the fact that a big reason why a lot of the Earth wants to genocide them was the whole "we responded to millions of deaths by starving billions" bit. That's the theme with all the warcrimes. No one has to reckon with the consequences. They only exist to escalate the war and put cheap shock factor death on screen.
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Aug 18, 2020 05:29
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chumbler posted:I mean in SEED it's always atrocity o'clock, which can be a bit much. And then Destiny decides that actually wasn't enough so they add a few extra hours to the day for more atrocities. Gundam X has tons of colony drops as its backstory, but, weirdly, it's a lot less downbeat than the UC, let alone SEED. The thing about SEED as opposed to other Gundams is that, usually, the atrocities had narrative weight. It was a way of emphasizing the viewer's emotions, not substituting for them. For example, Carta Issue's death is unusually drawn out and brutal, not to be shocking, but to tie into the flashbacks and make the viewer feel sympathy, despite her actions against Tekkadan, and Turn A has an arm be all that's left of someone who dies to further emphasize the dehumanizing nature of war after spending a lot of time in multiple episodes to get the viewer to know the victim as a human being. SEED often uses violent atrocity as a way to avoid the hard parts of depicting war. I don't think it wants any of it to look "cool", but it doesn't want to put in the legwork either, so it skips to the money shots. Atrocity happens, shock, move on. Interestingly enough, this is contrasted within the CE by Stargazer. The whole first episode there is set in the middle of Break the World, with the tragic reveal at the conclusion of the first episode being matched by the protagonists of the second being caught up in the same cycle. ...Maybe that's another reason for SEED's success, thinking about it. It goes for the big moments in general, skipping over the slower bits. Means every week has the moments people tune in for, rather than having to take the show's pacing as it comes.
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Aug 18, 2020 05:52
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Stairmaster posted:Why is war in the pocket called Gundam 0080? that is most definitely not the year it takes place Yes it is? Like barely but there war ends in the opening months of the new decade.
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Aug 18, 2020 05:57
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