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jokes posted:Diablo 3 turned into Chosen One poo poo, Starcraft 2 turned into Chosen One poo poo, WoW has no real cohesive plot so it’s spared the Chosen One poo poo I guess? The player's the Chosen One when the plot remembers what you've done in the past. Other times, you sift through poop for keys or whatever. Or watch Thrall murder someone you just beat down.
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Aug 16, 2020 16:03
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jokes posted:Diablo 3 turned into Chosen One poo poo, Starcraft 2 turned into Chosen One poo poo, WoW has no real cohesive plot so it’s spared the Chosen One poo poo I guess? They spent an entire expansion bringing Illidan back from the dead because he was the chosen one of prophecy meant to save the universe from The players in WoW aren't given a lot of narrative weight; the individual quests in-game have the players as important, but any events that actually move and shake the plot in WoW are strictly the doings of NPCs. If the players kill something without an NPC's help, it'll always be "a group of adventurers" if it's ever referenced, and if they kill it with an NPC's help the NPC will typically receive 100% of the credit. This happened most famously in Cataclysm where Thrall swoops in to killsteal Deathwing multiple times, but it's been going on since TBC(where Maiev helps you on the final phase of Illidan and is credited with the kill). Kanos fucked around with this message at 16:46 on Aug 16, 2020 |
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Aug 16, 2020 16:41
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Zaphod42 posted:I agree, if anything he massively underestimates her because she's just this curiosity to him and he's zerg god, the idea of her being special compared to the overmind is unfathomable to him. Makes Brood War cool too premise wise. Like this dangerous science experiment of the Zerg is now completely off the Zerg grid due to the Overmind blowing up, and is still partly a human woman who is basically pissed off at everything. What will happened???
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Aug 16, 2020 17:30
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I was reading the SC wiki and forgot a lot of dumb poo poo Duran Duran was a xel’naga and it ended in a DBZ fight lmao
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Aug 16, 2020 18:06
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I thought the Xel'Naga being slug things was kinda dumb too always pictured them more mechanical.
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Aug 16, 2020 18:30
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jokes posted:Diablo 3 turned into Chosen One poo poo, Starcraft 2 turned into Chosen One poo poo, WoW has no real cohesive plot so it’s spared the Chosen One poo poo I guess? Whoa there buddy, let me tell you about the Chosen One in WoW who was so chosen they had to un-chose who him because he was just so, so chosen and too overpowered chosenly.
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Aug 17, 2020 02:33
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KajiTheMelonMan posted:Whoa there buddy, let me tell you about the Chosen One in WoW who was so chosen they had to un-chose who him because he was just so, so chosen and too overpowered chosenly. Holy loving poo poo, what is this? 
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Aug 17, 2020 03:17
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He was mostly a comic book character that the writers of the games hated or were embarrassed about and put a lot of effort into ignoring.
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Aug 17, 2020 03:37
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It's always funny when someone discovers Med'an for the first time.
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Aug 17, 2020 03:38
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jokes posted:Holy loving poo poo, what is this? Sounds like a self-insert fanfic power fantasy
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Aug 17, 2020 06:45
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Zaphod42 posted:Sounds like a self-insert fanfic power fantasy Oh boy, I have got a character for you!  (dude is Lead Narrative Designer on World of Warcraft @ Blizzard)
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Aug 17, 2020 06:58
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Usually it’s some Two Worlds poo poo but he managed to surpass the power of Ariel and live between Three Worlds. They really need to rein in the writers. Between this and the Nathanos poo poo it’s getting weird. Who is steering the ship? E: lol nice
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Aug 17, 2020 06:58
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KajiTheMelonMan posted:Oh boy, I have got a character for you! quote:In life, Nathanos was the first and only human "ranger lord," trained by the high elves of Quel'Thalas, and was close to Sylvanas Windrunner.  Well, at least he didn't name him Stevenos.
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Aug 17, 2020 07:03
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Nathanos was in WoW since the beginning. He was a minor but memorable character thanks to a combination of competent writing and how he was used in quests. Then purely by coincidence when that dude joined Blizzard Nathanos got a huge push in the narrative.
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Aug 17, 2020 07:11
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Med'an is kind of old news. His comic books ended a long time ago and the general reception to him was so frosty that they've basically disavowed his existence; he's never been included in or mentioned in Hearthstone or WoW despite tons of other comic only characters making the jump, mostly because they know everyone hates him. Even the main thing he did in the comic, beating Cho'gall's rear end, was pretty much retconned entirely because Cho'gall was a major raid boss in WoW who had a canon death, and that fight takes place a while after Med'an supposedly fought and defeated him. Nathanos is super weird because it's a bizarre case of an already existing character being modified into a self-insert rather than starting off as one. Nathanos as a character existed in vanilla with his existing backstory(only human ranger general, big time Sylvanas fan), but he was mostly a blank slate because his purpose was just to be a big dangerous world boss for the Alliance to beat up for a questline. He had no real characterization beyond "is a jerk" because he didn't really need any. Steve Danuser swung in and basically remade the character into a weird pseudo self-insert and then massively played up his importance in the story until he was basically one of the main movers and shakers.
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Aug 17, 2020 07:12
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I'm sure their baby will ultimately redeem them both, as it'll be found out that its half human/half high elf AND half alive / double undead (0.5 dead?), and will bridge the gap between blah blah
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Aug 17, 2020 07:15
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Groovelord Neato posted:I thought the Xel'Naga being slug things was kinda dumb too always pictured them more mechanical. I think they were going for a Lovecraft vibe, but that doesn't really work when it's only visual.
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Aug 17, 2020 15:40
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Kanos posted:The players in WoW aren't given a lot of narrative weight; the individual quests in-game have the players as important, but any events that actually move and shake the plot in WoW are strictly the doings of NPCs. If the players kill something without an NPC's help, it'll always be "a group of adventurers" if it's ever referenced, and if they kill it with an NPC's help the NPC will typically receive 100% of the credit. This happened most famously in Cataclysm where Thrall swoops in to killsteal Deathwing multiple times, but it's been going on since TBC(where Maiev helps you on the final phase of Illidan and is credited with the kill).
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Aug 17, 2020 22:39
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It's honestly a lot better when MMOs pretend to be single player RPGs for the most part because you get a lot better of a story experience and that framing means that things you do feel consequential. Like the Star Wars MMO looks pretty fun because it basically runs like a game of KOTOR. They get at least that much.
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Aug 17, 2020 22:43
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You're supposed to be a nobody in a larger persistent world in an MMO.
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Aug 17, 2020 23:32
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Then maybe they shouldn’t have you save the world 30 times a year?
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Aug 17, 2020 23:35
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Groovelord Neato posted:You're supposed to be a nobody in a larger persistent world in an MMO. ah, yes, the pillar of RPGs, being a nobody
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Aug 17, 2020 23:39
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I like the way FF14 does it, which is that by the end of the base game's main story arc, you're cemented as the legendary invincible god-killing hero of ultimate legend, and from then onward everyone you meet trips over themselves to fear/respect you, and all group content is canonically established as you, the warrior of light, alongside 3-7 adventurers you've recruited to help. It does the DBZ thing of introducing villains with progressively higher power levels to present a threat to you, but within the lore you become and remain a huge deal to everyone in the world.
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Aug 17, 2020 23:40
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Luceo posted:ah, yes, the pillar of RPGs, being a nobody Starting off as a nobody and then becoming a sombody! Except then the designers already have a whole stable of somebodies from previous games they can use instead so you get relegated to "an adventurerer" even that.
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Aug 17, 2020 23:54
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Luceo posted:ah, yes, the pillar of RPGs, being a nobody MMOs are a different beast.
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Aug 18, 2020 00:17
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Groovelord Neato posted:MMOs are a different beast. Given that there are a great many MMOs where this isn't the case, not necessarily.
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Aug 18, 2020 00:30
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Yeah I shoulda said were. The "newer" crop streamlined things.
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Aug 18, 2020 00:31
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I have never seen an MMO that doesn't have you save the world or galaxy before you finish leveling.
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Aug 18, 2020 00:38
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Ainsley McTree posted:I like the way FF14 does it, which is that by the end of the base game's main story arc, you're cemented as the legendary invincible god-killing hero of ultimate legend, and from then onward everyone you meet trips over themselves to fear/respect you, and all group content is canonically established as you, the warrior of light, alongside 3-7 adventurers you've recruited to help. It does the DBZ thing of introducing villains with progressively higher power levels to present a threat to you, but within the lore you become and remain a huge deal to everyone in the world. GW2 does more or less the same thing, but it doesn't bother justifying the other people with you. It's such a simple idea I'm surprised WoW never adopted it.
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Aug 18, 2020 00:47
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Airspace posted:I have never seen an MMO that doesn't have you save the world or galaxy before you finish leveling. None of the ones I played in the pre-WoW days where I was doing most of my MMO playing had you do it.
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Aug 18, 2020 00:58
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Big Mad Drongo posted:GW2 does more or less the same thing, but it doesn't bother justifying the other people with you. It's such a simple idea I'm surprised WoW never adopted it. WoW actually started to try to lean into the "maybe we should make the player a figure of consequence in the story" a bit in WoD and Legion. In WoD, you were the commander in charge of the entire Draenor offensive against the Iron Horde(which finishes in about five minutes and then your position doesn't matter anymore because the expansion's content cycle got cut short). In Legion, you ascend to be basically the leader of a council of all the world's most powerful and influential members of your class because of the need to rise above faction infighting to fight the spooky demon armies. Unfortunately, they basically dropped the idea and as of Battle for Azeroth the player is yet another grunt/cog in the machine. You get called "champion" sometimes but you get treated entirely like a random passing adventurer/errand boy/girl.
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Aug 18, 2020 01:19
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out of the pre-wow mmos I played, in FFXI you were a big hero, and in ragnarok you harassed the kafra ladies
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Aug 18, 2020 01:23
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None of you have played WoW in like 10+ years and it shows lol. You went from being the commander of the alliance/horde expedition to being the leader of all (your class here) to bring the champion of Azeroth in the last three expansions. It loving sucks and everyone wants to go back to being a nobody, but when you were a nobody everyone jerked off snarky forum posts that were like “oh mr new expansion npc you don’t who Ia m???? I, god killer Xarthasxx???” There’s no pleasing people.
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Aug 18, 2020 01:49
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Comrayn posted:None of you have played WoW in like 10+ years and it shows lol. You went from being the commander of the alliance/horde expedition to being the leader of all (your class here) to bring the champion of Azeroth in the last three expansions. It loving sucks and everyone wants to go back to being a nobody, but when you were a nobody everyone jerked off snarky forum posts that were like “oh mr new expansion npc you don’t who Ia m???? I, god killer Xarthasxx???” There’s no pleasing people. You being the champion of Azeroth matters to almost no one. Basically none of the characters care. Your faction(who you do 90% of your quests for) treats you like a dumb nobody grunt.
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Aug 18, 2020 01:51
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Comrayn posted:None of you have played WoW in like 10+ years and it shows lol. You went from being the commander of the alliance/horde expedition to being the leader of all (your class here) to bring the champion of Azeroth in the last three expansions. It loving sucks and everyone wants to go back to being a nobody, but when you were a nobody everyone jerked off snarky forum posts that were like “oh mr new expansion npc you don’t who Ia m???? I, god killer Xarthasxx???” There’s no pleasing people. Saying the only alternative to bad story is no story isn't quite right. As mentioned, FFXIV and SWTOR have done MMO main character story right. Its just that, as we've been documenting in this thread, Blizzard's writing is loving awful now. So its gonna be bad no matter what they do.
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Aug 18, 2020 01:58
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Zaphod42 posted:Saying the only alternative to bad story is no story isn't quite right. drat that’s true it would have been wild if anyone had said that
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Aug 18, 2020 02:26
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Comrayn posted:None of you have played WoW in like 10+ years and it shows lol. You went from being the commander of the alliance/horde expedition to being the leader of all (your class here) to bring the champion of Azeroth in the last three expansions. It loving sucks and everyone wants to go back to being a nobody, but when you were a nobody everyone jerked off snarky forum posts that were like “oh mr new expansion npc you don’t who Ia m???? I, god killer Xarthasxx???” There’s no pleasing people. Like almost everything, the people who complain about being the leader of the world's problems aren't the same people who complain about being a nobody picking through piles of poo for quest items. The current system of your character being an unofficial enforcer for your faction leaders seems OK.
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Aug 18, 2020 02:47
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I missed a poo poo ton of posts when this became general Blizzard nostalgia/hate chat, but here are my thoughts for SC1/SC2: The SC1/Brood War storyline was really just filler to get me excited about making tiny mans to kill the other tiny mans. The twists like Kerrigan getting infested, and when Zeratul shows up, were my favorite parts. Kerrigan and Zeratul were my favorite characters, because they had so much cool poo poo going on. The other important people hated them, but they didn't do anything wrong. It made me want to finish each level to help them out. Jimmy was a close second, because he felt like the one voice of reason in a sea of human commanders that didn't care about their people. The secret level that revealed a zerg/protoss hybrid made me SO EXCITED for SC2. It was like seeing a sequel teaser in the credits of a movie you just finished. I didn't get SC2 on launch. Never been a fan of competitive RTS multiplayer, and WoL was not the full single player story mode. I waited years until I got all 3 campaigns for I think $30 in a sale? Was absolutely worth it. Great variety in the campaign maps, all kinds of different objectives each map that kept things fresh. I really loved the Terran map where you are in an infested zombie town. During the day you burn down infested buildings, at night you retreat and try to defend your base against a huge wave of zombies. Maybe this is because I waited so long between SC1 and SC2, but I didn't really care about the quality of the plot that much. Terran campaign had Jimmy (and his convict friend of dubious morality). Zerg had Kerrigan seeking god mode, training her bug daughter Zagara, and assimilating new species. Protoss had Fenix reincarnated FOR THE SECOND TIME, also anything Alarak was amazing. The SC2 story doesn't feel as gritty or in depth as SC1, but they focused on all my favorite characters of each team and had them do cool things. when zeratul died i cried maybe a little WC3 campaign always felt cheesy and corny as gently caress. The actual storyline has some nice twists, and rivalries between specific characters that keep you invested between campaigns. The in-game cut scenes had dialogue that was bad in a good way, like watching Transformers or an old kung fu film. The final levels of RoC and TFT both felt like great capstones to end a story on. RoC final level really felt like "the true ending" though, like that's the final battle to end all things. edit: last moment hot take the only game that has ever come close to WC3 custom maps and community is Roblox. Play tower defense. Play mario party style minigames. Play a janky way-too-long-and-grindy RPG. Play a game of tag. Play a 8v1 survive the killer/vampire/werewolf/alien. Almost every time I play it with my son, I go "oh poo poo, this reminds me of that one WC3 map..." WITCHCRAFT fucked around with this message at 04:46 on Aug 18, 2020 |
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Aug 18, 2020 04:35
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I'm one of those people who, if I like a story, I get immersed in it, and all thoughts of "is this good writing? Does this make sense?" go flying out the window unless something astoundingly stupid happens that even the story's logic just cannot explain, and those moments are *exceedingly* rare; Reforged's Grom->Hellscream badly-spliced audio fuckery is the only thing I can think of off-hand in either series that's actually done this to me, and that wasn't about the plot/writing. I've been playing Warcraft since Warcraft 2. The concept of good writing or bad writing cease to exist for me. There is only the plot. And if retcons happen, they happen. Sometimes it can be explained as a misunderstanding of events. A lot of what people call "Retcons" aren't even retcons, they are in fact merely adding new information, sometimes filling in holes that people weren't aware were there. I enjoyed Starcraft 1's story, I enjoyed Starcraft 2's story. I enjoyed Warcraft 2's story, I enjoyed Warcraft 3's story, I continue to enjoy World of Warcraft's story to this day. Do I ever claim that these stories are all perfect with wonderful writing the whole way through? God no. I can't say that about *any* franchise I've enjoyed. And I don't need to in order to enjoy them.
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Aug 18, 2020 07:20
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BlazetheInferno posted:I'm one of those people who, if I like a story, I get immersed in it, and all thoughts of "is this good writing? Does this make sense?" go flying out the window unless something astoundingly stupid happens that even the story's logic just cannot explain, and those moments are *exceedingly* rare; Reforged's Grom->Hellscream badly-spliced audio fuckery is the only thing I can think of off-hand in either series that's actually done this to me, and that wasn't about the plot/writing. This is pretty much exactly how I feel about most video games fiction. While I absolutely love games like Disco Elysium for the writing, games like Diablo, Starcraft and Warcraft are just dumb Saturday cartoon fun that I turn my brain off and enjoy. I never took Starcraft’s story so seriously that the narrative in SC2 would offend me. I just like jumping into the fiction and going for a ride.
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Aug 18, 2020 07:29
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