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Looking at 14-50 outlets, is there a difference between the Bryant and the Hubbell, other than price?
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Aug 16, 2020 17:31
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Skinnymansbeerbelly posted:Looking at 14-50 outlets, is there a difference between the Bryant and the Hubbell, other than price? One of those you're getting ripped off. I think my 14-50R was like $45 at home depot. Edit: maybe not. Those grainger ones are industrial.  for leviton home user https://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton-50-Amp-Flush-Mount-Shallow-Single-Outlet-Black-R10-00279-S00/300324414
H110Hawk fucked around with this message at 17:58 on Aug 16, 2020 |
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Aug 16, 2020 17:55
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Skinnymansbeerbelly posted:Looking at 14-50 outlets, is there a difference between the Bryant and the Hubbell, other than price? Bryant builds to a lower price point, so everything is gonna be thinner/cheaper. The Hubbell also has both back and side wiring, where the Bryant only has back. If this is for like, your dryer, where you're gonna plug it in once and likely never unlug it again don't bother spending more on the Hubbell. If this is for a welder you intended to move around and plug/unplug regularly you might want the higher quality receptacle.
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Aug 16, 2020 17:58
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The reason I am looking at 14-50 outlets is because I intend to buy / lease an EV in the near future, and I figure if I'm getting all that work done I should just get the electrician to drop it now for L2 charging, if there is capacity in the (utility) panel. My logic is that I could use an adapter to convert to 6-50 if need be. Is this sound? The only downside I can see would be needing to make absolutely sure that whatever is powered downstream is correctly fused.
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Aug 16, 2020 18:56
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Wiring question. On circuit A I have put a GFCI outlet on the first outlet in the circuit and done the 3 prong "no ground" method of allowing me to put in 3 prong outlets. With my 3 light tester, I get "open ground" and hitting "test" does not trip the gfci. if I hit test on the outlet it operates as expected. On Circuit B. I have put a GFCI outlet on the first outlet on the circuit and done the 3 prong "no ground" method allowing me to put 3 prong outlets on them I do NOT have a ground wire attached, but the metal boxes are all grounded. If I plug in my 3 light tester, i get "correct" and pushing the button does indeed trip the GFCI. Are both A & B operating correctly? A wrong? Is B operating differently than A due to the grounded metal boxes?
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Aug 16, 2020 20:21
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Skinnymansbeerbelly posted:The reason I am looking at 14-50 outlets is because I intend to buy / lease an EV in the near future, and I figure if I'm getting all that work done I should just get the electrician to drop it now for L2 charging, if there is capacity in the (utility) panel. My logic is that I could use an adapter to convert to 6-50 if need be. Is this sound? The only downside I can see would be needing to make absolutely sure that whatever is powered downstream is correctly fused. Why put in the outlet now if you don't know what you're gong to need? Have the electrician put in a box and a breaker and pull the cable. Cap it and put a cover on the box. If/when you need it you can get the correct receptacle and install it. Not sure what you're talking about on the "downstream correctly fused" in relation to two different style 50A outlets. But how you're going to use it would dictate the relative quality/robustness of the outlet you choose. In an EV charging situation it's likely you would plug the cord into the wall and leave it, so the less expensive but still listed/certified outlet would be fine. If on the other hand you're talking about potentially needing an L6-30 (i.e., a 30 amp outlet, not a 50) it would not be appropriate to have a 50 amp breaker feeding it and would need to be switched out. If this is a possibility you probably want to skip both the receptacle and the breaker and simply have him install a box and pull wire, leaving it in the panel to be attached to an appropriate breaker later. Motronic fucked around with this message at 20:40 on Aug 16, 2020 |
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Aug 16, 2020 20:38
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Skinnymansbeerbelly posted:The reason I am looking at 14-50 outlets is because I intend to buy / lease an EV in the near future, and I figure if I'm getting all that work done I should just get the electrician to drop it now for L2 charging, if there is capacity in the (utility) panel. My logic is that I could use an adapter to convert to 6-50 if need be. Is this sound? The only downside I can see would be needing to make absolutely sure that whatever is powered downstream is correctly fused. You can adapt a 14-50 to 6-50 with a little pigtail looking cable. I put in a 14-50 on the assumption that having a neutral is more flexible than not having one. If your equipment demands a lower fuse rating that's a whole other problem, easily solved by buying bigger equipment. 
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Aug 16, 2020 20:59
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I hadn't even considered just pulling 50A wire from the panel to a new box and skipping the breaker & outlet, that sounds like exactly what I want to do if I don't know if I'm gonna need 50 or 30.
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Aug 16, 2020 21:05
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Coward.  https://www.homedepot.com/p/Southwire-X-Treme-Box-7-Outlet-Straight-Blade-Portable-Power-Distributor-19703R02/205751546?modalType=drawer
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Aug 16, 2020 21:12
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So if it's only going to be a ~6' run, would 4 AWG be complete overkill? That's the listed max size for both of the outlets.
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Aug 16, 2020 22:43
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Skinnymansbeerbelly posted:So if it's only going to be a ~6' run, would 4 AWG be complete overkill? That's the listed max size for both of the outlets. Lolyes. But I mean........it's only 6 feet so go for it. It's not really a cost concern. Providing the pull isn't made miserable because of it.
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Aug 16, 2020 22:48
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I think it comes down to availability. If I can find a place that will sell me that short a cut at the bulk unit price, I'm golden. Otherwise, shorty packs are available for 6, 8, 10, and 12. Is stranded the standard at the bigger sizes? I'm thinking of going with the 6 or the 8 to reduce a bit of the misery. e: Found tables, I'm just gonna get a box of 10awg solid core Romex for both the EV run and the inlet to transfer switch run. Skinnymansbeerbelly fucked around with this message at 00:19 on Aug 17, 2020 |
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Aug 16, 2020 23:17
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tater_salad posted:Are both A & B operating correctly? A wrong? Is B operating differently than A due to the grounded metal boxes? Yes, all are behaving correctly. Without an actual EGC, the plug in testers won't work. They connect a (usually) 15K Ohm resistor between hot and ground to simulate a fault. (as an aside, 10 mA is considered the limit for let-go, hence the 15K Ohm.) The internal test button doesn't care about EGC, it just connects the resistor between H/N around (outside) the toroid measuring the current imbalance. The grounded metal box is likely grounding the outlet via the mounts on the receptacle. This isn't to be considered reliable, however. You should run a ground tied to the box, or just label them as no-EGC.
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Aug 17, 2020 02:50
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Thanks.. I was pretty sure that my understanding was correct but not 100% sure so I wanted to confirm.
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Aug 17, 2020 11:51
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Skinnymansbeerbelly posted:I think it comes down to availability. If I can find a place that will sell me that short a cut at the bulk unit price, I'm golden. Otherwise, shorty packs are available for 6, 8, 10, and 12. Is stranded the standard at the bigger sizes? I'm thinking of going with the 6 or the 8 to reduce a bit of the misery. 10AWG won't carry 50A. It sounds like you've decided to plan for 30A, but I just wanted to make sure you knew that. You'll be stuck with a max 30A circuit unless you up-size the wires. Also I'm pretty sure you can't install a 50A receptacle on a 30A circuit. There are some scenarios where you're allowed to put a mismatched receptacle on a circuit (e.g. a 15A standard 5-15 receptacle on a 20A circuit), but I don't think this is one of them. I'm not an electrician, but even if code allowed it, it'd be bad practice. (edit: thinking about it, you probably CAN put a 50A receptacle on a 30A circuit, but don't unless it's going to cause you massive heartache). Honestly I would just put the 50A wire in. Install a 30A breaker if your equipment/receptacle requires it, but at least make sure the wire is 50A. Once the wire is fished, terminated, and walled off, it's WAY easier to replace the receptacle or breaker than it is to re-run the wire. edit: I just spot checked a couple 6-30 and 14-30 receptacles and they all take down to 4AWG, so running a 6AWG won't be a problem if you end up needing a 30A receptacle. edit again: I spot checked a few 30A breakers and not all will take 6AWG, so watch out there. DaveSauce fucked around with this message at 13:56 on Aug 17, 2020 |
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Aug 17, 2020 12:15
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angryrobots posted:As an addendum to this, be careful of buried stuff there, it appears there is an underground electric service. You would think the ground rod predates the electric service, but it's odd how far it was left out of the ground so it could have been added later. Yes, underground service. You can see the feed up to the meter in the background, service line runs from there up to the street in the opposite direction of the spike. This was new construction 2 years ago, so I'm sure the reason it's so high is "laziness", much like all the other things I've fixed. Now that I think about it, it might be just as easy to just cut the spike off shorter than to hammer it in further.
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Aug 17, 2020 15:55
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H110Hawk posted:You WANT someone who is tough on DIYers, but you should also see if you can get a working relationship with them based on shown competence. Do not do this without a permit. It's a mountain of work, most of it spent under your house trying to get wire to every wall in your house, adding a bunch of light switches w/ 3-ways to make sure you can reach a light from every doorway, etc. Only you know your own appetite for this amount of work, it will basically own your nights and weekends for months and months as you said. Plus you will be working in and around knob and tube trying to fish wire, which means you really should kill the power to your whole house while working. So I'm taking this to heart and have a bunch of questions that I get conflicting answers from all over the internet on regarding code. Is it OK to post them in this thread, or will the potential logjam be irritating? I have a basic plan in place and just had new service installed which should make the process easier, but want be 100% confident before beginning this. I'll likely start first week of October and going to give myself six months or so.
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Aug 17, 2020 21:44
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I'm trying to see if I can upgrade my doorbell to Nest Hello, but I can't find the transformer to check the voltage. In the chime box, all I see is a wire for the terminal (black) and a wire for the doorbell (red). No ground. Is there any info that can be gleaned from this or should I just not gently caress with it and call an electrician to install it?
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Aug 17, 2020 21:47
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skylined! posted:So I'm taking this to heart and have a bunch of questions that I get conflicting answers from all over the internet on regarding code. Is it OK to post them in this thread, or will the potential logjam be irritating? Knock yourself out. You could probably make a thread about it if you wanted to post pictures and stories and horrors. The answer is you need more circuits than you expect but not where you expect them, and GFCI+AFCI basically everywhere. The reason you're probably getting conflicting answers is two fold: People are wrong, either out of intentional ("I've always done it this way I don't see the big deal.") or unintentional ignorance to updates on code, and some jurisdictions enforce different years of code. If you're doing it yourself there is no real reason other than saving a few hundred bucks not to do it by the latest and greatest. The panel you want is the biggest Square D snap on neutral panel you can fit. Consider if you want to buy a "solar ready" one. IT BURNS posted:I'm trying to see if I can upgrade my doorbell to Nest Hello, but I can't find the transformer to check the voltage. In the chime box, all I see is a wire for the terminal (black) and a wire for the doorbell (red). No ground. Is there any info that can be gleaned from this or should I just not gently caress with it and call an electrician to install it? It's probably 24VAC. Got a multimeter? Check it, then return your Nest Hello because gently caress those things.
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Aug 17, 2020 21:52
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H110Hawk posted:The panel you want is the biggest Square D snap on neutral panel you can fit. Consider if you want to buy a "solar ready" one. Just need to quote this incredibly correct advice.
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Aug 17, 2020 21:58
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H110Hawk posted:Knock yourself out. You could probably make a thread about it if you wanted to post pictures and stories and horrors. The answer is you need more circuits than you expect but not where you expect them, and GFCI+AFCI basically everywhere. Thanks. The company I hired to do the service upgrade put in a 40/80 panel inside and a 16-space panel outside under the meter. I'll start reading about Square D panels for outside. I think I'll make a thread, where I can be appropriately derided for my dangerous hubris.
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Aug 17, 2020 22:14
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skylined! posted:Thanks. The company I hired to do the service upgrade put in a 40/80 panel inside and a 16-space panel outside under the meter. I'll start reading about Square D panels for outside. Don't worry, the knob and tube will let you know if you screw up mid project. If the new panels are already installed then too late, otherwise change order it to that Square-D one. I learned of them weeks after my eaton panels were installed, and it's fine but so much more hassle by comparison.
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Aug 17, 2020 22:29
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H110Hawk posted:If the new panels are already installed then too late, otherwise change order it to that Square-D one. I learned of them weeks after my eaton panels were installed, and it's fine but so much more hassle by comparison. Eaton panels of late have absolutely garbage grounding bar placement.  This is before I cleaned it up - it's the panel in my barn and they had ground/neutral bonded, neutrals mixed with grounds, etc. I'd like to know exactly how you are supposed to get at the ground bar once the left side is populated. Hope you're using insulated drivers! I'm planning on taking the barn down and building a new one, otherwise I would have just chucked that panel into the bin and replaced it rather than cleaning it up.
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Aug 17, 2020 22:55
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skylined! posted:Thanks. The company I hired to do the service upgrade put in a 40/80 panel inside and a 16-space panel outside under the meter. I'll start reading about Square D panels for outside. I'd suggest a whole house surge protector too. Easy enough to install, extra layer of protection for stuff that doesn't usually have a surge protector (like your furnance)
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Aug 17, 2020 23:36
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Motronic posted:I'd like to know exactly how you are supposed to get at the ground bar once the left side is populated. Hope you're using insulated drivers! Tsk tsk working on a live panel. But yes, gently caress that placement. There may be alternate placements in the install manual. This is my sub:  (pre-filling it completely, I am terrified to look in there now.)
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Aug 18, 2020 00:05
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H110Hawk posted:Don't worry, the knob and tube will let you know if you screw up mid project. Looks like the meter main panel outside is a square D and the interior panel is a GE PowerMark Gold Load Center - gold so you know it's fancy.  devicenull posted:I'd suggest a whole house surge protector too. Easy enough to install, extra layer of protection for stuff that doesn't usually have a surge protector (like your furnance) This is a great idea.
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Aug 18, 2020 00:15
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H110Hawk posted:Tsk tsk working on a live panel. Pleeeeahuse. Do as I say, not as I do.
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Aug 18, 2020 00:18
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Motronic posted:Pleeeeahuse. Screwdriver on bus bar touches breaker, now panel is dead. Problem solves itself.
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Aug 18, 2020 00:25
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One more question, I don't think the math works for getting over that initial compressor start. The plate on my outside unit says it has an LRA of 124, and the manufacturer of that soft starter claims that it can reduce that by 70%, so that would be 37.2 Amps on a generator that will trip out at 30. Is that the end of it?
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Aug 18, 2020 01:06
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Skinnymansbeerbelly posted:One more question, I don't think the math works for getting over that initial compressor start. The plate on my outside unit says it has an LRA of 124, and the manufacturer of that soft starter claims that it can reduce that by 70%, so that would be 37.2 Amps on a generator that will trip out at 30. Is that the end of it? Not necessarily.....but for your own sanity it should be telling you "this is a generator that is woefully undersized for what I'm trying to do. I can a.) reduce my load (i.e. no AC) or b.) buy a much larger generator. As I've been gently pushing here......you're working on the very edge of what that thing might even be capable of. This nets you no fuel savings from it being an inverter since it's gonna be running balls out all the time, and if any little thing goes wrong, from the gen needing a new plug, slightly suboptimal/old fuel to a weakening start/run cap, to a weakening any kind of startup cap or unexpected issue on the loads and it's gonna blow the breaker or stall the genset. What are you going for here? Super-duper backup where your full time job is minding the generator? Or an actual working backup generator that just does its job? From what you said, you're worried about rolling utility outages. Go get a 14k autostart fixed backup genset and call it a day.
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Aug 18, 2020 01:32
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Skinnymansbeerbelly posted:One more question, I don't think the math works for getting over that initial compressor start. The plate on my outside unit says it has an LRA of 124, and the manufacturer of that soft starter claims that it can reduce that by 70%, so that would be 37.2 Amps on a generator that will trip out at 30. Is that the end of it? You're trying to square peg/round hole that 30A generator. You simply need more juice to run a house that likely has a 200A service in the event of a utility failure. Houses used to have 60A services before things like central air were common. That LRA is smoothable but you're going to bog your generator something horrible when you start up, likely leading to reduced nominal output. If you're running it full tilt boogie you're also going to be sucking down fuel.
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Aug 18, 2020 01:42
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We are running some cat5 in an underground pvc conduit between two buildings at my work. I ordered some burial rated FTP cable to put in it and some ethernet surge suppressors for good measure. Should I ground both ends of the run or just 1?
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Aug 18, 2020 20:19
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I saw a guy on YouTube who had an Ethernet run between his house and his neighbor who was another family member and they had a lightning strike a tree on the lot line. The lightning ended up going through the buried Ethernet and destroyed all the equipment on both ends. For the rerun, he used fiber optic cable which is not conductive so it shouldn't be an issue again. You might look into that just in case.
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Aug 18, 2020 20:27
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Yeah, running fiber won't be much more expensive and will eliminate a lot of possible problems while also being generally quite futureproof. I would definitely cancel that order and switch over to fiber if practical. Media converters are cheap if your switches don't have fiber support directly.
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Aug 18, 2020 21:46
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If this is for work run fiber. Mpo if you can so you can get multiple pairs.
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Aug 18, 2020 22:03
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Nevets posted:We are running some cat5 in an underground pvc conduit between two buildings at my work. I ordered some burial rated FTP cable to put in it and some ethernet surge suppressors for good measure. Should I ground both ends of the run or just 1? You should only ground one end, if the two buildings are not grounded separately, running a cat-5 and grounding both ends could cause what's called a "ground loop" where your cat-5 could carry a significant amount of current, with deleterious effects (i.e. melting), even if it doesn't melt it could cause undesirable interference. DaveSauce posted:10AWG won't carry 50A. Regarding ampacity of NEMA outlets, the ampacity on the outlet does not matter except for the max current the outlet can handle, as long as the wiring is fused appropriately for its AWG and the load doesn't exceed that amount, it's fine, my 240V welder uses 12A at 240V and a 6-50, my EVSE also draws 24A from a 6-50 #10 and a 30A breaker is fine for this, and permissible by code. tater_salad posted:Wiring question. What is the 3-prong "no-ground" method, it does bot sound safe. H110Hawk posted:You can adapt a 14-50 to 6-50 with a little pigtail looking cable. I put in a 14-50 on the assumption that having a neutral is more flexible than not having one. I cut the 14-50 off my EVSE so I could plug it into the same outlet as my welder, I was operating off the assumption that the neutral was unused, since almost all EVSE's come with a 6-50 and a 14-50, my assumption was correct.
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Aug 19, 2020 08:15
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Elviscat posted:What is the 3-prong "no-ground" method, it does bot sound safe. First outlet on the string is a GFCI, all other outlets are 3 prong with a "GFCI protected, no Equip ground" sticker. This is the common safe method of "updating" old circuits without being dangerous and using either a 3 prong to 2 prong adapter, or just cramming in a 3 prong outlet.
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Aug 19, 2020 13:28
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Thanks for the suggestions to look into fiber, I never imagined it had gotten cheap enough to compete with regular copper for short runs. I may still have to use copper anyway though, I can't seem to find anything that will also work for our ancient PBX phones without spending a boatload.
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Aug 19, 2020 15:21
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Nevets posted:Thanks for the suggestions to look into fiber, I never imagined it had gotten cheap enough to compete with regular copper for short runs. That's an even worse place to use copper then. Because you will smoke some cards you can't get your hands on easily. What is your connection? Is it just ethernet? Media adapters should work fine. Convert the fiber to UTP at each side. It's a short run, so multimode will work just fine, is cheaper, and uses less power.
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Aug 19, 2020 17:58
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Nevets posted:Thanks for the suggestions to look into fiber, I never imagined it had gotten cheap enough to compete with regular copper for short runs. fs.com will sell you all the stuff you need for this for super cheap, for example: https://www.fs.com/products/17237.html Note: their SFPs are dirt cheap - this means you should buy a spare or two for when one inevitably dies
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Aug 19, 2020 18:55
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