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Tamba posted:You can't actually tell the position of the tile from that. It's always the same animation of discarding a tile from the middle, even if they discard the outermost tile. Are you sure? Just played a few games and tiles were getting pulled from all over the row. I could see it being from a random place in the row if they don't discard their current draw, but it's definitely not the same place always, at least. KICK BAMA KICK posted:A hand that looks like a candidate for chiitoitsu may also be, depending on tile availability, a candidate for toitoi, and that's worth 2 han and still a yaku when opened. Easy to combine with some other yakus as well for big points. This is what I end up doing with most of my would-be chiitoitsu hands, yeah. It has a much higher success rate too. Anyway, topic of games, the one I just finished had an interesting ending: One player getting double-ron'd and their point total going negative in the very first round.   I know it's not that many but I'm still a little annoyed I lost rank points and copper for that, just on principle. Edit: Tangent, but it sometimes feels like discarding a tile seems to make the chances of my next draw being that exact same tile increase at least tenfold, especially if it's a yakuhai or other important tile I didn't want to discard. It happens much more often than it seems like it should, and earlier today happened twice in a row in the same match; discarded one tile, drew it again next draw and threw that away too, then my draw after that discarded a different one I only had one of and on the next draw pulled another of that one. Edit 2: Looking at those pictures again, and while I'm lucky my few pulls got her (or really any characters instead of just junk) and all, Sawako is really lacking emote-wise, especially compared to some other characters. It's tempting to just stick with Ichihime just because her emotes are so much better. Edit 3: Okay, I've discovered why it feels like even when doing well my copper supplies are declining: It's because they are. Recorded how much copper I had before playing an East 4P game in the Silver room, got third and lost 510 copper from the match itself, and then afterwards I had 1010 copper less than before instead of 510. The ante for an East 4P game in Silver is 500, so that's it; the ante is separate from how much you win or lose in the match itself, and is more than you might win if you get second without a lot of points, so if you're not consistently getting first in your games your funds are pretty likely to decline over time. Meanwhile I've been on a losing streak (sometimes with pretty bad mistakes on my part, sometimes with ridiculously poor luck like getting ron'd on my fourth discard and losing 12,000 points in one game), so my copper supplies are plummeting. Whoops. Roland Jones fucked around with this message at 07:01 on Jul 22, 2020 |
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Jul 21, 2020 05:46
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Think I'm starting to get the hang of this whole mahjong thing
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Jul 22, 2020 06:56
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the "general" rule for chiitoi/toitoi is that if you're going for toitoi, you a) better have value in your hand other than toitoi, and b) your pairs should be reasonably likely to drop. Remember that one of the big weaknesses of toitoi is that- especially if you call terminals or honors, it can frequently leave you in a poor defensive position against tenpai- at a mangan level toitoi hand, this isn't an issue because you're pushing anyway, but having to push a 2 han hand against dealer riichi is Bad. Bad Toitoi Pushes is right up there with bad yakuahi-nomi hands as far as beginner traps go. quote:Something I've been doing but kind of feel like a dick for, when I'm dealer and behind I tend to go for faster/simpler hands, even if they're only like 1k-2k points, so I can chain dealer rounds and try to catch back up. Given the way the rules work this seems like it's intended or expected, but it still feels kind of slimy. Feels Villeneuve fucked around with this message at 19:25 on Jul 22, 2020 |
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Jul 22, 2020 17:05
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Roland Jones posted:
If you've got a dead dora honor pair, I'd probably keep it. First off, if it's a dead honor pair, it's two guaranteed safeties against a tenpai (excepting kokushi) , and if all four dora are visible, it's less likely for an opponent to have a very valuable hand. (be careful if only one other dora has been dropped- riichi on a dora pair wait is a legitimate move, especially on a terminal/honor dora) In any case a dead honor pair is likely to be the "worst pair" in your hand and you should probably be keeping it anyway- generally when you have too many pairs (3+, 4 if you aren't going for chiitoi or toitoi) you should be discarding the pair that leaves the best remaining block- ie dropping the extra 2s from 223s. (it's OK to toss a honor pair if it's early and you've got good shots at tanyao/pinfu otherwise, though). Just be careful about dropping the "pair" from something like 3445p - in this case, you should consider this two blocks of 34p and 45p-, and not as a "pair". I wouldn't drop 4p here unless it guarantees you a good wait tenpai, because overlapping blocks are slightly worse than non-overlapping ones. Something like 4556p (or 2334s, 6778m etc) is a very, very strong shape, as not only can it accept 3/4/6/7 but two of those draws give you good chance ippeiko- considering this as just 456p + isolated 5p is a common beginner mistake. Feels Villeneuve fucked around with this message at 18:17 on Jul 22, 2020 |
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Jul 22, 2020 17:31
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Hey goons, I'm a complete novice at Mahjong, basically self-taught playing Yakuza last year with a few pointers through streams and friends. I'm only in the Silver tables in Soul, and its been an... up and down affair there. I couldn't really find a guide that used simple English to teach the concepts and hands for complete beginners playing in apps, so I wrote one myself. If you could take a look at it and see if there's any glaring errors or things I should add, I'd appreciate it. I've already grabbed a few of the resources from this thread and included them in the advanced tutorials. Riichi Mahjong Crash Course
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Jul 24, 2020 01:36
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My thoughts:
MegaZeroX fucked around with this message at 17:00 on Jul 24, 2020 |
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Jul 24, 2020 03:51
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MegaZeroX posted:My thoughts: I made a lot of these changes, thank you. Added like another page and a half onto it, but its good info. Also, this just taught me about bonus sticks.
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Jul 24, 2020 07:07
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I don't know if it'd be too much effort, and also it runs a little counter to the statement about not memorizing the character tiles, but the Mahjong efficiency trainer (https://euophrys.itch.io/mahjong-efficiency-trainer) also has a tool that will let you convert a hand into unicode characters, so something like 334m12p2568sGGRWh can be rendered like so: 🀉🀉🀊🀙🀚🀑🀔🀕🀗🀆🀅🀅🀄 (It uses the common mpsz notation, where you have to convert 1z=East, 2z=South, 3z=West, 4z=North, 5z=Haku, 6z=Chun, 7z=Hatsu)
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Jul 24, 2020 11:54
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The list of resources should absolutely include Riichi Book I by Daina Chiba.
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Jul 24, 2020 13:39
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It's in the OP but yeah it's super useful for learning the basic concepts.
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Jul 24, 2020 13:50
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Sorry for the confusion. I meant in the list of resources at the end of the document Go RV! is developing, not this thread.
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Jul 24, 2020 18:34
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To the poster earlier who said they were short, MJS is giving out 5K coins every day this weekend for logging in
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Jul 24, 2020 22:46
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I got my partner hooked on riichi today 
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Jul 26, 2020 00:02
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I wanna watch more higher-level riichi players do their thing, where are the best places to do that? I know about abema already.
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Aug 5, 2020 20:04
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You can try the JPML Youtube channel for VODs https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqHDeUer8bgaqswSuFP7FxQ They stream live on Nicovideo and Freshlive as well but as typical for Japanese broadcast websites you either need to timeshift the streams in advance or pay up to view videos. https://ch.nicovideo.jp/jpml https://freshlive.tv/jpml
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Aug 5, 2020 20:44
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Roland Jones posted:Are you sure? Just played a few games and tiles were getting pulled from all over the row. I could see it being from a random place in the row if they don't discard their current draw, but it's definitely not the same place always, at least. I paid attention to this during a game and while the animation does pick different positions in the hand, it's not where that tile actually was is their hand. For example, the animation can discard a dragon tile from the left of the hand, when it was actually their rightmost tile. The only information you get from watching discards is "discarded from hand" or "discarded the tile they just got", don't try to read anything else from it.
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Aug 6, 2020 12:43
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ooh, i just discovered this thread and i am obsessed with mahjong so im bookmarking the gently caress out of it. i didnt check every link in thread but has anybody recommended this video yet? https://youtu.be/hlnC2rgIPrc it's how i learned and i consider it the most accessible way for beginners to learn how to play. edit: my majsoul friend code is 119 014 510. add me! Mr. Steak fucked around with this message at 00:10 on Aug 19, 2020 |
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Aug 19, 2020 00:06
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Mr. Steak posted:ooh, i just discovered this thread and i am obsessed with mahjong so im bookmarking the gently caress out of it.
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Aug 19, 2020 00:35
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Learned the game recently thanks to the 51 Switch Collection. Decided there wasn't enough niche hobbies in my life. Soul ID: 119619813
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Aug 19, 2020 00:49
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I almost never play anymore and didn't build up much skill to begin with, but I'm 122602222 on mahjong soul and just tried to add the three people above me.
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Aug 19, 2020 01:47
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can we all just take a second to offer condolences to my luck in the last 100 games? literally a monkey tapping random tiles would be winning more than me. (this is in the category of 2 rounds) how i havent downranked yet is beyond me Mr. Steak fucked around with this message at 03:06 on Aug 19, 2020 |
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Aug 19, 2020 02:59
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Lmao just played a game in which the dealer in East 1 won eight consecutive hands, half by tsumo, without knocking anyone out to end it.
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Aug 19, 2020 03:45
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Mr. Steak posted:ooh, i just discovered this thread and i am obsessed with mahjong so im bookmarking the gently caress out of it. I linked it earlier this page actually when someone was trying to create a beginners guide. It's also how I learned (beyond the basics from Yakuza), although I wouldn't exactly call it a super accesable beginners guide, more like a "here is a thing to watch in multiple sessions" to people that already have at least the basics down, since people tend to be scared off by 3 and a half hour videos. Mr. Steak posted:can we all just take a second to offer condolences to my luck in the last 100 games? literally a monkey tapping random tiles would be winning more than me. Oh yeah, luck, sure. No bad plays involved I am sure  MegaZeroX fucked around with this message at 04:24 on Aug 19, 2020 |
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Aug 19, 2020 04:22
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MegaZeroX posted:Oh yeah, luck, sure. No bad plays involved I am sure my bad play was ever deciding not to rush tanyao
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Aug 19, 2020 04:43
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Mr. Steak posted:can we all just take a second to offer condolences to my luck in the last 100 games? literally a monkey tapping random tiles would be winning more than me. Whoa that call rate, stop calling so much! Also your deal in rate should be half your win rate or better, so maybe try defending more to bring that deal in rate down.
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Aug 19, 2020 09:16
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hot date tonight! posted:Whoa that call rate, stop calling so much! Also your deal in rate should be half your win rate or better, so maybe try defending more to bring that deal in rate down. 1) if i dont call then how am i supposed to rush tanyao? 2) if i dont rush tanyao how am i supposed to win before anyone else? 3) im plenty defensive, but when none of the 14 tiles in my hand are on the table, what am i supposed to do? 4) i wasn't lying about luck, sometimes you get double-ronned on the safest possible discard and that's mahjong. 1 and 2 are jokes by the way. i know calling meant to be done in moderation but at the end of the day im calling for good hands and keeping bad hands closed. also i cant win games if im not winning hands, and calling dramatically increases speed. (also if im the dealer and i can pon a yakuhai on the first disard, you know im doing it every time) Mr. Steak fucked around with this message at 10:13 on Aug 19, 2020 |
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Aug 19, 2020 10:05
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Are you aware of the concept of Suji? It helps deduce safer tiles by assuming your opponent is using an open or double pair wait. http://arcturus.su/wiki/Suji Calling a lot (meaning you have fewer discard options) and discarding all your outer tiles (which tend to be safer discards) for tanyao does make defending harder - that's one reason not to push for it every game.
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Aug 19, 2020 10:17
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tell that to me getting ippatsud on terminal tiles 3 times in one game!! edit: but also no i'll look into suji, thanks lol
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Aug 19, 2020 10:18
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Can you share screenshots of some of these deal-ins?
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Aug 19, 2020 10:21
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here's the worst offenders from the game in question. discarded 1-pin here (ippatsu) open cuz i started with two dora and i was in first.  discarded the dora cuz i was scared to hold it and there were 36 tiles left. TOO BAD HE WAS ALREADY IN TENPAI WITH 5 DORA (hesitantly opened cuz i wanted mixed triple sequence. probably not worth it but meh) (also i was dealer so winning fast is priority) (i drew the other 8-man after calling btw)  discarded 1-sou (ippatsu and double-ron) obviously opened with the dora yakuhai pon. (at this point i basically gave up on the game lol)  discarded 1-man. luckily not ippatsu but ARE YOU SERIOUS ponned my seat wind because i just did not give a gently caress at this point (but i was probably also going for a half flush)  finally denied a dealer-keep comeback by discarding this 8-man with 46 tiles left. just the bad luck cherry on the cake Mr. Steak fucked around with this message at 10:49 on Aug 19, 2020 |
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Aug 19, 2020 10:42
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That second discard is very bad. You could already see 6 han (including the yaku required to win) on the table and you shouldn't be surprised that someone with 3 open melds is in tenpai. You had multiple safe discards against that player, and they were also almost completely safe against the player to your left because their hand was almost certainly hald-flush. Even if it weren't though you should prioritize not dealing into the 12,000 point hand. Some of the others are bad luck, but you wouldn't be put into a situation where you had to desparately chase every hand if you didn't deal into a guaranteed haneman in East 4.
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Aug 19, 2020 11:00
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Irony Be My Shield posted:That second discard is very bad. You could already see 6 han (including the yaku required to win) on the table and you shouldn't be surprised that someone with 3 open melds is in tenpai. You had multiple safe discards against that player, and they were also almost completely safe against the player to your left because their hand was almost certainly hald-flush. Even if it weren't though you should prioritize not dealing into the 12,000 point hand. i mean, yeah hindsight is 20/20. of course i would have preferred to discard the safe 8-man which was doing nothing for my hand, but i was prioritizing safety by ditching the dora earlier. its not like i had to avoid an ippatsu, i said "ok im giving up on the dora so i can either discard 2-man then 8-man or 8-man then 2-man, lets ditch the scarier one first" of course i feel dumb now, but still (it also turns out i was indeed not going to get a 3-man so i was pretty much correct in my assessment to give up on the dora...) sorry if im being defensive. but this game was very recent and i have residual salt Mr. Steak fucked around with this message at 11:11 on Aug 19, 2020 |
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Aug 19, 2020 11:07
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You weren't prioritising safety, you discarded a dangerous tile because you were still thinking about how to win the hand. When you're 3 tiles off winning and an opponent has that scary of an open hand winning is barely even a consideration - you should just be thinking about how to avoid dealing in even if you have to completely dismantle your hand to do so. The 2 man sitting uselessly in your hand forever is way better than risking losing 12,000 points by dealing in. For the other ones: 1. This one I accept is bad luck, I can't see a better discard. This on its own wasn't match losing though. 3. 8 man was a safer discard due to suji. Sometimes you should take risks when you're behind but I really wouldn't want to deal ippatsu into the player I'm ahead of - there was always the risk of being put firmly in 4th place, which I believe carries an extra ranking penalty on Mahjong Soul. I probably would've ended up dealing in on a future turn though to be honest, the mangan hand feels too good to abandon. Beyond this point you were in a deep enough hole that you basically had to take risks, but I'd note that you wouldn't have been if not for the bad discards earlier. I'll point out safer routes you could've taken if you weren't so far behind on points. 4. 2 pin is safe. 8 sou is relatively safe due to suji. South is also pretty safe due to being an honour with one already on the table. None of these discards really harm your hand development. You could argue you'd probably end up discarding the 1 anyway but at least this way there's a chance someone else deals in first. e: also the call seems like it was probably bad, half flush is a long shot and the hand isn't valuable enough without it. 5. Nothing you could really do about this one, but not really surprising the guy in third wants to prevent you from making a comeback. Irony Be My Shield fucked around with this message at 12:27 on Aug 19, 2020 |
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Aug 19, 2020 12:17
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Mr. Steak posted:here's the worst offenders from the game in question. 1: Calling was really bad here. You have no yaku and you're taking apart already completed sequences in the hand to try and find one. You're making it way, way less likely you'll actually win by opening this hand. 2: If you want to be safe, discard a safe tile. Cutting 2m takes your hand further away from tenpai, and makes it less valuable. You also apparently opened the hand and broke apart a completed 789p sequence to chase sanshoku? So you need the 6p to show up, or you're furiten when you hit tenpai. This is not good. 3: You kept 1s over the 5m and I don't really know why. Obviously it's just random chance that the 1s happened to be two people's winning tiles later, but you wouldn't have dealt in if you cut it immediately, and then you'd have 5m as a safe tile against the riichi. You uh also apparently discarded 1p at some point, which makes the 23p shape really awkward for you anyways, for the same reason as the last hand. Don't keep bad tiles over good tiles, in general. 4: If you're chasing a half flush, why did you keep random souzu and manzu over the east wind? You also have 2p, which isn't really doing anything in your hand, and is safe. Even the south wind is better than the 1m there. At this point you're in real trouble, but dealing in to a dealer riichi is the end. If someone else deals in, or they tsumo, you still have a chance to get out of last place. 5: You were dead here basically no matter what, but it's worth noting you have 7p and 9p in your discards, which, swapped out for the isolated 8m and 2s, would make you tenpai with the 5p you just drew. The 7p should have stayed over the 2s for sure, and it's also weird that the 9m came out when you had the 8m in hand. The 89m shape was better than an isolated 2s. Again, don't keep bad tiles over good tiles. I would recommend working on tile efficiency, learning some defensive theory, and opening your hand about half as often as you do currently (or less.) You don't need to take every single tile that comes out of your opponents! Just build the hand such that the greatest possible number of tiles will be useful, and then draw useful tiles. If someone gets tenpai before you, and you're not even close to tenpai yourself, just bail. Let the other losers call 3 times and get owned. You've got plenty of chances to make something happen if you're playing full hanchans.
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Aug 19, 2020 12:28
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Irony Be My Shield posted:You weren't prioritising safety, you discarded a dangerous tile because you were still thinking about how to win the hand. i really appreciate most of this analysis, but how in the world was keeping that 8-man prioritizing winning the hand? im defensive but im not lying to you.
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Aug 19, 2020 13:07
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VgameT posted:1: Calling was really bad here. You have no yaku and you're taking apart already completed sequences in the hand to try and find one. You're making it way, way less likely you'll actually win by opening this hand. quote:So you need the 6p to show up, or you're furiten when you hit tenpai. This is not good. quote:3: You kept 1s over the 5m and I don't really know why. Obviously it's just random chance that the 1s happened to be two people's winning tiles later, but you wouldn't have dealt in if you cut it immediately, and then you'd have 5m as a safe tile against the riichi. You uh also apparently discarded 1p at some point, which makes the 23p shape really awkward for you anyways, for the same reason as the last hand. Don't keep bad tiles over good tiles, in general. edit: oh i confused this for the hand where i held the 1-mans. nevermind lol. i must have discarded them cuz i'd already decided on my melds and at that stage i wanted to dump less safe tiles to save safer ones for later. oh and i FORGOT that i discarded 1p >_> quote:4: If you're chasing a half flush, why did you keep random souzu and manzu over the east wind? You also have 2p, which isn't really doing anything in your hand, and is safe. Even the south wind is better than the 1m there. At this point you're in real trouble, but dealing in to a dealer riichi is the end. If someone else deals in, or they tsumo, you still have a chance to get out of last place. overall, thank you both for the detailed comments! Mr. Steak fucked around with this message at 13:23 on Aug 19, 2020 |
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Aug 19, 2020 13:18
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What stands out from your aggregate stats are 1) A very low riichi rate 2) A very low avg score 3) An extremely high bust rate I don't think an absurdly high call rate is that bad in bronze/silver room if you can convert those into wins, but you should work on fundamentals before being that bold. In the second example you should be breaking apart completed sets to avoid dealing in to your downwind player. 8m and 7p are 100% safe against them so those should be your #1 discard priorities.
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Aug 19, 2020 14:17
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generally, against a riichi, or a tenpai that's confirmed to be a good value, you should be folding unless you're also decent-value (3 han) tenpai, or are 1-away with good value AND good waits/1-away with a guaranteed mangan+/have no ability to defend anyway/are losing badly and need to push every hand. You can assume tenpai with 3 calls, or 2 calls in the last discard row. also re: saving safeties: Generally don't do this if you're new. The loss of efficiency is significant *especially* if you're new and are likely to make efficiency mistakes anyway. If your hand is still horrific at the end of the first row (i.e. you've been tsumogiring nothing but honors and your awful initial deal hasn't developed at all), you can start to think about this because at that point you're very unlikely to win the hand, but the downsides are significant. "Discarding dangerous tiles early" is something people try to do and it's very difficult to do this well until you're much more experienced. There are obvious exceptions (i.e. discarding east first in east round as non-dealer to lower the possibility of a double-east call, especially when you don't need yakuhai, or discarding an early dora terminal/honor that you're very unlikely to be able to use) but I'd limit this for now as it can cause you to either make efficiency mistakes, or just end up dealing in a lot, especially to open hands/damaten in row 3 On a similar note, limit your "half folding" until you're more experienced. Either push or fold- effectively "half folding" is really really tough, even for experienced players. I see a lot of low-value calls in your screenshot too. Remember that the problem with calls isn't just that you lower your hand value, it's that you get less ability to defend- *especially* if you pon honors/terminals. In a flat score situation I generally won't open for less than 3 han unless it's a very good wait 2-han hand, and when you're losing, you want value. Feels Villeneuve fucked around with this message at 17:59 on Aug 19, 2020 |
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Aug 19, 2020 17:45
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That is some excellent advice even for intermediate players, dang.
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Aug 19, 2020 17:59
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it's basically all paraphrased from these articles which (along with RB1) are really really good for "begintermediate" players who know the rules but are having trouble winning. *especially* read the "fundamentals" articles and the "guide to calling" articles and there's always more to practice with tile efficiency. https://mahjong.guide/list-of-articles/
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Aug 19, 2020 18:05
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