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loving hell v5 is more cursed than Wraith.
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Aug 19, 2020 19:06
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the only way I could make sense of it is if Mitsoda's take on Vampire somehow clashed with Achilli's, which, in my head, that feels wrong
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Aug 19, 2020 19:30
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It's more likely that "creative direction" doesn't refer to Mitsoda's vision for how the setting will be portrayed, but rather how the game will play. Which, given how many years it's been in the hopper, is an insane dispute to have.
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Aug 19, 2020 19:35
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I'm glad I learned my lesson about looking forward to things
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Aug 19, 2020 19:40
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This is either a Freelancer scenario where the publisher has to step in to make sure the game ships at all, or or something is being kept under wraps. It's probably the former, but after Avellone...
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Aug 19, 2020 19:43
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Basic Chunnel posted:It's more likely that "creative direction" doesn't refer to Mitsoda's vision for how the setting will be portrayed, but rather how the game will play. Which, given how many years it's been in the hopper, is an insane dispute to have. If it's a gameplay thing, you don't fire the narrative lead, do you?
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Aug 19, 2020 19:47
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CottonWolf posted:At least Onyx Path are still releasing good V5 books, so the non-Paradox stuff is going well! Let the Streets Run Red is getting proofed by the gentleman gamer this week - hyped for the deep Milwaukee lore
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Aug 19, 2020 19:58
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Kavak posted:This is either a Freelancer scenario where the publisher has to step in to make sure the game ships at all, or or something is being kept under wraps. It's probably the former, but after Avellone... Gonna call a shot and say it's the latter. Timing is just way too weird.
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Aug 19, 2020 20:00
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Kavak posted:This is either a Freelancer scenario where the publisher has to step in to make sure the game ships at all, or or something is being kept under wraps. It's probably the former, but after Avellone... Scuttlebutt indicates it's not a misconduct thing, but who can say at this point? CottonWolf posted:If it's a gameplay thing, you don't fire the narrative lead, do you?
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Aug 19, 2020 20:00
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Basic Chunnel posted:Scuttlebutt indicates it's not a misconduct thing, but who can say at this point? I think that's the one thing we can be certain of. Multiple Paradox employees have confirmed it wasn't misconduct related.
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Aug 19, 2020 20:02
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Where's "Two quarters from release" coming from?
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Aug 19, 2020 20:04
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Actually per Kotaku Cluley hasn't been fired, but he has been removed from the game's development. Which I think suggests that without Cluley, Mitsoda had no champion, and Cluley's departure from the project left him vulnerable - that's just how basic office politics tends to shake out. Provided that there's no misconduct at play, it certainly says something about either Mitsoda's performance or Paradox's understanding of what they have and what Bloodlines fans want. Either or both could be the case. But it's absolutely clear that whatever trouble development was in, Paradox botched management in several critical ways.
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Aug 19, 2020 20:07
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Kavak posted:Where's "Two quarters from release" coming from? Of course, given the way development and marketing have shaken out, it's absolutely possible that Paradox went full court with PR and intentionally overstated progress. But that just strengthens the larger point about Paradox's publicly horrendous management of the game. Development hell disasters happen all the time but it's rare for such games to be publicly pushed and exhibited and promised in that state the way VTMB2 was. Usually you get a teaser and maybe a game concept demo and then, if the project implodes, it's kept under wraps. The developer just goes silent until either the game is retooled or canceled outright - Prey 2 would be one example of a game that got a teaser and then quietly scrapped to change hands and become a different game entirely, Bioshock Infinite is a game that got a bigger E3 debut and then got radically changed before reemerging in later years. Publishers keep the sausage making of development quiet for good reason, and don't make promises. Because otherwise you get the scenario we're seeing now.
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Aug 19, 2020 20:15
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They never even promised Christmas, they just said 2020. That started to feel like December as the year wore on but the game hasn't had a genuine release window since the first delay. I don't think Paradox is used to having to seriously manage subsidiaries, especially ones outside Europe. Half the problems with White Wolf before their dissolution came from the idea that they would be fine on their own to make licensing deals and such. The current level of publicity with just dev diaries and the like would have been fine if it wasn't for that weird loving Danke Schoene trailer that everyone laughed at.
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Aug 19, 2020 20:23
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Kavak posted:I don't think Paradox is used to having to seriously manage subsidiaries, especially ones outside Europe. Half the problems with White Wolf before their dissolution came from the idea that they would be fine on their own to make licensing deals and such.
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Aug 19, 2020 20:31
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You know, I ain't surprised that WW stuff is cursed. Considering all the cultural appropriation they did, they must have really shat on some spirit's lawn.  Something big. 
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Aug 19, 2020 22:59
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Mitsoda's writing to a great extent is Bloodlines, the writing is the biggest thing people talk about when they talk about how great the game was. Firing him is a bizarre move.
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Aug 19, 2020 23:53
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I preordered the game in a show of support. The only other thing u have preordered was Spore. Never again.
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Aug 20, 2020 00:00
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Pope Guilty posted:Mitsoda's writing to a great extent is Bloodlines, the writing is the biggest thing people talk about when they talk about how great the game was. Firing him is a bizarre move. So if it wasn't misconduct-related was it some bizarre exec overreaction?
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Aug 20, 2020 01:10
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Dawgstar posted:So if it wasn't misconduct-related was it some bizarre exec overreaction? Or related to the probable dev hell. Or he was being gross in some writing way, and they were understandably allergic to that after NWW's.... everything.
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Aug 20, 2020 01:58
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Mitsoda was quite adamant that Bloodlines 2 would break from the nascent V5 tradition of being nazi dogshit when the game was announced, it was basically the first thing they made clear.
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Aug 20, 2020 02:21
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Dienes posted:I preordered the game in a show of support. The only other thing u have preordered was Spore. Whatever the reason behind this, the result is going to be a trainwreck. Either the game is a bloated mess and they've brought in a hatchet man (from Ubisoft no less; god help us) to smash a minimum-viable product together and shove it out the door, or they disagree with the game on a fundamental level and are going to rip it up and start over, on an absurdly tight timetable. Which will also lead to a minimally-viable product shoved out the door.
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Aug 20, 2020 09:20
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The "Ubisoft hatchetman" hasn't worked for that company since 2007 I see people keep passing this around like he's some games as service boogieman and not someone who ducked out after Assassin's Creed 1
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Aug 20, 2020 10:25
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As excited as I was, I am just going to wait for a week or two like any other release. If it is extremely good/bad I will know then. If it looks OK I will get it, if not I will skip. Hope they pivot and make it an action game and not an rpg. Also, make it Hunter the Reckoning 3.
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Aug 20, 2020 12:04
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Hello! Haven't played since 1-2 years before V5 came out, last time I ran Requiem v2 but with Masquerade lore. Is V5 good now? I remember a lot of criticism on it when it came out. Is there a V5.2 / Stryx Chronicle or something similar I can look for? Or should I stick to Requiem2 or V20? Cable fucked around with this message at 12:30 on Aug 20, 2020 |
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Aug 20, 2020 12:28
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Cable posted:Hello! Haven't played since 1-2 years before V5 came out, last time I ran Requiem v2 but with Masquerade lore. V5's closest baked-in campaign setting/chronicle book was Fall of London which is... not good. In the Year of Our Lord 2020 they made a giant campaign book and based it around pregens. Do you care about Mithras? I hope you care about Mithras.
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Aug 20, 2020 12:33
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Honesty, one of my favorite things about running Vampire is setting in my hometown but just making it huge like a major metropolitan area. Great way to do whatever the story needs to work, while also being able to have touchstones that people recognize. I have never been to New York, so it is as much of a fantasy setting as playing in the Forgotten Realms.
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Aug 20, 2020 12:52
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Dawgstar posted:V5's closest baked-in campaign setting/chronicle book was Fall of London which is... not good. In the Year of Our Lord 2020 they made a giant campaign book and based it around pregens. Do you care about Mithras? I hope you care about Mithras. If you're interested in Chicago, Chicago by Night V5 is a very good book, and it has a 50 page Chronicle in the back. I've not run it though. Let the Streets Run Red, by the same authors, is a pure Chronicle book that's coming out in the not too distant future too. I agree Fall of London is very weird though. It has some neat ideas, but I think if I actually wanted to run it with a group it would need some serious work to scrap out the pre-gen requirements.
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Aug 20, 2020 12:53
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Basic Chunnel posted:Mitsoda was quite adamant that Bloodlines 2 would break from the nascent V5 tradition of being nazi dogshit when the game was announced, it was basically the first thing they made clear. God, what if this is their problem with it? What if they specifically want to court that market? I know it sounds farfetched, but after everything we've seen in 2020...
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Aug 20, 2020 13:18
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paradoxGentleman posted:God, what if this is their problem with it? What if they specifically want to court that market? If that were it they'd have to have fired Cara too, no way she's going to take on lead writing on a game the publishers want to turn fash.
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Aug 20, 2020 13:21
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Dawgstar posted:V5's closest baked-in campaign setting/chronicle book was Fall of London which is... not good. In the Year of Our Lord 2020 they made a giant campaign book and based it around pregens. Do you care about Mithras? I hope you care about Mithras. Yeah I didn't mean a campaign book (I have one thought of already), I meant to ask whether V5 has any sort of "rules update". As a matter of fact, I do like oWoD metaplot and have adapted Requirem to follow the major events :p
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Aug 20, 2020 14:39
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Cable posted:Yeah I didn't mean a campaign book (I have one thought of already), I meant to ask whether V5 has any sort of "rules update". Modiphius did some minor errata on V5, and there was an editing pass on Camarilla and Anarch to remove some of the more offensive poo poo in those books. There's still some very stupid stuff in there, but I would argue that, if you didn't know about the previous leadership and the international incident they caused, you would not know it had been there.
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Aug 20, 2020 14:45
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CottonWolf posted:If you're interested in Chicago, Chicago by Night V5 is a very good book, and it has a 50 page Chronicle in the back. I've not run it though. Let the Streets Run Red, by the same authors, is a pure Chronicle book that's coming out in the not too distant future too. It does seem like a good benchmark for 'is this good/is it garbo' is 'is the book made by Modiphus or OPP.' If it's the latter, great, if it's the former probably best avoided.
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Aug 20, 2020 15:00
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Cable posted:Hello! Haven't played since 1-2 years before V5 came out, last time I ran Requiem v2 but with Masquerade lore. Yes its extremely good CottonWolf posted:If you're interested in Chicago, Chicago by Night V5 is a very good book, and it has a 50 page Chronicle in the back. I've not run it though. Let the Streets Run Red, by the same authors, is a pure Chronicle book that's coming out in the not too distant future too. ElNarez posted:Modiphius did some minor errata on V5, and there was an editing pass on Camarilla and Anarch to remove some of the more offensive poo poo in those books. There's still some very stupid stuff in there, but I would argue that, if you didn't know about the previous leadership and the international incident they caused, you would not know it had been there.
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Aug 20, 2020 16:58
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Cable posted:Yeah I didn't mean a campaign book (I have one thought of already), I meant to ask whether V5 has any sort of "rules update". You still might want to pick up Chicago by night for the extremely good lasombra writeup/ its a good book to read The Cults of the Blood Gods backer manuscript is also out for all your Giovanni and giovanni adjacent needs, but that's a bit 
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Aug 20, 2020 17:02
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Dawgstar posted:It does seem like a good benchmark for 'is this good/is it garbo' is 'is the book made by Modiphus or OPP.' If it's the latter, great, if it's the former probably best avoided. Yep, avoid Modiphus books like the plague
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Aug 20, 2020 17:02
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Dawgstar posted:So if it wasn't misconduct-related was it some bizarre exec overreaction? Yeah the only way this makes sense to me is either he did bad things or management demanded heads as punishment for the delays.
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Aug 20, 2020 19:03
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It might not have anything to do with Mitsoda's performance. Cluley was creative lead, not Mitsoda, and they were by all accounts joined at the hip. If Paradox wanted to change the game from Cluley's vision and thus removed Cluley, where does that leave Mitsoda? The thing that you realize after a few years in project management is that executive buy-in is absolutely key. On the scale of something like Bloodlines 2, projects need c-suite level support. If someone low on the totem pole wants something or has an idea, they'll need to run it up the chain and a lot of the time, almost always, those decisions that require allotment of time and money need a high level exec to say "this is what we're doing" and most crucially, order everyone involved to do what's being asked. Because with big teams, not everyone's on the same page, and if you don't have someone to crack the whip, people in different silos are probably not going to get what they need when they need it. For that reason, especially big projects tend to be "pets" of executives, an executive adopts a given project, be it a film or game or product, and that is their baby - they make sure it gets organizational resources, and in turn they get the credit if it ends up succeeding. They also get blamed if the project fails. By that same token, if the exec who owns a project departs, or is demoted, or whatever, then that project can suddenly find itself in a lot of trouble. Without that mouthpiece to hype the project to the money men, what was "a cool and promising game" one day becomes "a whole lot of money risked for unclear reasons" the next. So again, Cluley was the c-suite guy at Hardsuit Labs championing the game as it was a month ago, and he was answerable to Paradox. Mitsoda, by all accounts, was someone that Cluley brought in and was integral to Cluley's vision for Bloodlines 2. But if Paradox lost faith in Cluley (and given his removal from the game despite being the highest-level creative worker in the company, it's extremely likely that's the case), then Mitsoda, whatever the quality of his work, is a baby that goes out with Cluley's bathwater. That kind of poo poo happens all the time. It's hard to believe Paradox when they say they're looking to preserve the creative direction of the game when they've removed the creative leads.
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Aug 20, 2020 19:26
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paradoxGentleman posted:God, what if this is their problem with it? What if they specifically want to court that market?
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Aug 20, 2020 21:34
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Hi, hello. Please don't triple-post, it is better to just combine all your quotes into one post. You can do that with the "add quote" button that appears next to all recent posts below the Message entry box when you are on the reply screen. This is not a huge deal but apparently it bothers some folks and is a matter of posting courtesy. Thank you and have a nice day.
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Aug 20, 2020 22:44
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