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Bluebeard got booted after killing his wife however.
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Aug 20, 2020 01:51
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There was also a Brownbeard who had his limbs amputated by Hawkins and restored (sorta) by Law. EDIT: Don't think he was ever a part of Blackbeard's crew, though.
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Aug 20, 2020 02:02
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ZepiaEltnamOberon posted:There was also a Brownbeard who had his limbs amputated by Hawkins and restored (sorta) by Law. Brownbeard wasnt no, but I still have hope. If blackbeards giving out names then they better all be beards. Even the people who dont have beards, or who are obviously wearing fake beards to live up to impossible namesakes like Earbeard
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Aug 20, 2020 02:04
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Blackbeard having horrible naming sense and just looking around the room and going "Yea youre Lampbeard now" would be funny, and also another paralell to luffy since he gave the Sunny godawful names
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Aug 20, 2020 02:05
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Libra posted:This sure is a hosed up thing that you just said. There are parts of the world that aren't in America! Carpator Diei posted:First of all, Japan also has a feminist movement; this is not just a case of outside criticism (as your post seems to imply, at least by my reading). That Oda doesn't see that sort of behaviour as inappropriate is quite evident, but that doesn't mean he's justified in that assumption. Also, Sanji is quite an extreme case even by shonen manga standards. You do understand that feminism is much less influential in Japan though, right? I didn't say he was justified in his assumption at all.
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Aug 20, 2020 02:08
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Speaking of Punk Hazard, the anime still occasionally does some stuff well. 
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Aug 20, 2020 02:08
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Tolth posted:There are parts of the world that aren't in America! As a half-japanese person who is not even remotely American, I'm well aware! What you said is still extremely hosed up and wrong! Libra fucked around with this message at 02:28 on Aug 20, 2020 |
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Aug 20, 2020 02:12
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the real answer as to why oda keeps doing this is he's a boomer. he's your awkward uncle who still makes "ball and chain" jokes loudly in front of your mother, just that kind of personality but with a sense of humor
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Aug 20, 2020 02:17
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Libra posted:As a half-japanese person who is not even remotely American, I'm well aware! I don't understand why you think it's extremely hosed up and wrong to observe that cultural norms differ, dude.
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Aug 20, 2020 02:25
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Tolth posted:I don't understand why you think it's extremely hosed up and wrong to observe that cultural norms differ, dude. I'd imagine what's hosed up is basically saying "misogyny is just more accepted in Japan" because it's kind of hand waving oppression as "different cultural norms". Also if in fact feminism is less influential in Japan (I honestly personally have no idea) that's a pretty bad thing overall
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Aug 20, 2020 03:09
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Is this going to be that conversation that keeps happening where someone eventually implies that "not being lovely to women/LGBTQ people" is western imperialism?
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Aug 20, 2020 03:13
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Funky Valentine posted:Is this going to be that conversation that keeps happening where someone eventually implies that "not being lovely to women/LGBTQ people" is western imperialism? i hope it turns into a conversation about how institutional sexism and misogyny is far more subtle and insidious than the various worldwide cultural manifestations of horniness instead
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Aug 20, 2020 03:26
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Guy A. Person posted:I'd imagine what's hosed up is basically saying "misogyny is just more accepted in Japan" because it's kind of hand waving oppression as "different cultural norms". Also if in fact feminism is less influential in Japan (I honestly personally have no idea) that's a pretty bad thing overall I don't think I've justified any of this at any point - my original post was in response to someone who seemed mystified at how Oda would feel it's acceptable to depict Sanji in this manner. Feminism is drastically less influential in Japan, yes. Their gender gap in (for example) the workplace is huge.
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Aug 20, 2020 03:29
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weird that there's always some person who is Japanese or who lives in Japan and thinks that means that misogyny is okay or whatever
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Aug 20, 2020 03:30
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Bleck posted:weird that there's always some person who is Japanese or who lives in Japan and thinks that means that misogyny is okay or whatever I don't think there is a single person in this thread who thinks that misogyny is okay.
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Aug 20, 2020 03:32
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Tolth posted:I don't think there is a single person in this thread who thinks that misogyny is okay. This discussion will be much more pleasant for me if I get to argue against what I want you to have said, so let's do that.
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Aug 20, 2020 03:39
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Tolth posted:I don't think I've justified any of this at any point - my original post was in response to someone who seemed mystified at how Oda would feel it's acceptable to depict Sanji in this manner. Well, likewise, I didn't say you justified anything and was just saying "this is probably what they thought". Fwiw a neutral tone of "this is just the way it is" doesn't really make it clear whether you agree with those cultural norms tho, it might be better to clarify in the future.
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Aug 20, 2020 03:43
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Tolth posted:I don't think there is a single person in this thread who thinks that misogyny is okay. maybe if you don't want people to think that you should be more careful when you present misogyny as a cultural artifact Guy A. Person posted:Fwiw a neutral tone of "this is just the way it is" doesn't really make it clear whether you agree with those cultural norms tho, it might be better to clarify in the future. yeah, that
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Aug 20, 2020 03:47
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Bleck posted:maybe if you don't want people to think that you should be more careful when you present misogyny as a cultural artifact I'd prefer to just communicate in good faith and assume others are doing the same, frankly.
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Aug 20, 2020 03:57
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oda's take on minority issues just baffles me at times tbh i can't really get a read on him. like i think we'd all agree he's hosed up a bit w/ the general way he portrayed sanjis timeskip, but at the same time, he also goes out of his way to show that the okamas are... probably the most consistently upstanding, accepting, morally right, good people in the series? like i dont understand why he fucks up in terms of physical presentation and cues and stuff but then also is pretty blatant in terms of saying "no i think these are the good guys and im a fan of expression in all forms" almost like he's contradicting himself
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Aug 20, 2020 03:58
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Tolth posted:I'd prefer to just communicate in good faith and assume others are doing the same, frankly. yeah that's not what that means, bub tbp posted:oda's take on minority issues just baffles me at times tbh i can't really get a read on him. like i think we'd all agree he's hosed up a bit w/ the general way he portrayed sanjis timeskip, but at the same time, he also goes out of his way to show that the okamas are... probably the most consistently upstanding, accepting, morally right, good people in the series? like i dont understand why he fucks up in terms of physical presentation and cues and stuff but then also is pretty blatant in terms of saying "no i think these are the good guys and im a fan of expression in all forms" almost like he's contradicting himself it is worth noting, as few people seem to, that Sanji's lecherousness is portrayed comedically, but that does not necessarily mean it is an endorsement having a character act in a negative way - even a character that is otherwise a heroic protagonist - is not necessarily an endorsement of those negative actions it should go without saying that a story containing a misogynist character does not necessarily imply a misogynist attitude on the part of the author, especially when that story also contains some of the most powerful and interesting women and non-binary characters in the entire medium
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Aug 20, 2020 04:05
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tbp posted:oda's take on minority issues just baffles me at times tbh i can't really get a read on him. like i think we'd all agree he's hosed up a bit w/ the general way he portrayed sanjis timeskip, but at the same time, he also goes out of his way to show that the okamas are... probably the most consistently upstanding, accepting, morally right, good people in the series? like i dont understand why he fucks up in terms of physical presentation and cues and stuff but then also is pretty blatant in terms of saying "no i think these are the good guys and im a fan of expression in all forms" almost like he's contradicting himself The initial depiction of okamas is pretty repugnant to us now, and pretty good by the standards of year-2000 era Japan. He's continuously introduced less awful depictions of all kinds of queerness as the series has gone on - from the newkamas all the way through to the Wano arc somehow having at least 1.5 reasonably depicted trans people in it. Even now, Japan has no legally enshrined protections for sexual orientation and gender identity in the workplace at all. The majority of LGBT adults in Japan aren't out to anyone at work. It's really easy to poo poo on Oda for drawing a gross depiction of queer people in 2005, but it's also really easy to forget that this is an author with tremendous reach deliberately representing queer characters, who are at worst depicted as "bizarre but ultimately pure hearted". He could certainly do a better job, but frankly he's taken more risks in his career to do the right thing than I have. This isn't a man being pressured to represent more and refusing to do so - this is a man including representation that goes way beyond what's normal for someone in his position, and depicting it badly because he's doing so in relative isolation.
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Aug 20, 2020 04:11
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i like kiku. she's cool.
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Aug 20, 2020 04:18
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if i didn't see a woman for 50 years i'd be a complete bone man too!
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Aug 20, 2020 04:19
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tbp posted:oda's take on minority issues just baffles me at times tbh i can't really get a read on him. like i think we'd all agree he's hosed up a bit w/ the general way he portrayed sanjis timeskip, but at the same time, he also goes out of his way to show that the okamas are... probably the most consistently upstanding, accepting, morally right, good people in the series? like i dont understand why he fucks up in terms of physical presentation and cues and stuff but then also is pretty blatant in terms of saying "no i think these are the good guys and im a fan of expression in all forms" almost like he's contradicting himself The fact that every named character is morally upright and heroic says everything you need to know. Hes singing the right tune, its just off key when he starts throwing jokes around. Like, if there were actual malicious intent behind the newkamas they would have been portrayed some way other than Luffys staunch allies. If there was malicious intent behind Bon Clay, he would have remained a villain and never redeemed himself and become one of the most loved non strawhats in the series. Intent matters a lot to me, even a fuckup with good intentions is still capable of listening and adjusting. Rather than contradicting himself, its not so crazy to think he just made a misstep. Like Im even loath to say "missteps", the only poor representation is during the Kamabakka Kingdom which is like, what, a few pages in two chapters and two cover pages? Its not even a reoccuring problem, which goes back to that listening and adjusting. Plus, hes actually tried. Who else running in Shounen Jump has ever even given a sliver of the spotlight to any queer characters? It seems like critism in that case just gets amplified, since Oda is the center of attention in the discussion, even though hes the only one making an attempt at positive representation in the first place.
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Aug 20, 2020 04:26
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Tolth posted:I'd prefer to just communicate in good faith and assume others are doing the same, frankly. Communicating in good faith means being genuine in expressing your thoughts, not something like giving people the benefit of the doubt. fwiw I think the intent of your first post was obvious from the context. If there's anything in it I object to it's probably that it undersells attitudes against misogyny and sexism in places that aren't "the west."
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Aug 20, 2020 04:30
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Dr Subterfuge posted:Communicating in good faith means being genuine in expressing your thoughts, not something like giving people the benefit of the doubt. I know what "good faith" means - I think you've misunderstood what I meant by it. My point is that caveating any mention of something unpleasant or controversial with "By the way I do not endorse this" is not something I would do if I was interacting with others I trusted under sincere conditions - the "good faith" here is not assuming that we're all secret bigots trying to play some insane overton-window-shifting game. Indeed, if I did think anyone in this thread was like that, I'd be posting elsewhere.
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Aug 20, 2020 04:37
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I just got finished reading the manga for the first time, partially due to totallynotmark's videos, and also the pandemic making longer-form media not seem so daunting. Overall, I enjoyed the hell out of it, especially the first like 2/3s. I've never seen the anime, and I have no plans to start, 'cause I'm not that bored. Even though I'm sure long-time fans are probably sick of it, I'm glad to see the Sanji chat, 'cause that was definitely an aspect of the story that annoyed me a bunch. He's otherwise a pretty cool character, but he's obviously waaay too much of a creep. I feel like the whole Sanji thing is made worse by [probably another well-worn topic] of how Oda draws women. He clearly likes drawing sexy women, and that's fine! But it kinda sucks how the character designs for male characters are pretty impressively creative and varied, but for adult women, they all either look like Nami or Big Mom. It'd definitely be really nice to see more variety there.
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Aug 20, 2020 04:43
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Slightly Absurd posted:I feel like the whole Sanji thing is made worse by [probably another well-worn topic] of how Oda draws women. He clearly likes drawing sexy women, and that's fine! But it kinda sucks how the character designs for male characters are pretty impressively creative and varied, but for adult women, they all either look like Nami or Big Mom. I dunno why but this post made me think of Dr Kureha, and then her appearance and it makes me smile how hard Oda will go in on a joke. Yea, shes got your standard "older woman trying to look hip" or maybe "age is only a number" thing going on with the attitude and belly button ring and all that, but when asked just how old she is the response is One Hundred And Thirty Years Old
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Aug 20, 2020 04:48
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Dr Subterfuge posted:Communicating in good faith means being genuine in expressing your thoughts, not something like giving people the benefit of the doubt. Tolth posted:I know what "good faith" means - I think you've misunderstood what I meant by it. ...
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Aug 20, 2020 04:54
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Bleck posted:... You’re being weirdly aggro. He’s not endorsing it, he’s not supporting it, he’s just talking about it in a neutral tone to explain why the depictions might not be great There are some serious ongoing issues with japanese culture, especially with how they act towards and depict women. Acknowledging and understanding that the representation of women is a product of that culture isn’t an endorsement of it and everyone else in this thread seems to get it except for you and Libra. Meme Emulator posted:The fact that every named character is morally upright and heroic says everything you need to know. Hes singing the right tune, its just off key when he starts throwing jokes around. Like, if there were actual malicious intent behind the newkamas they would have been portrayed some way other than Luffys staunch allies. If there was malicious intent behind Bon Clay, he would have remained a villain and never redeemed himself and become one of the most loved non strawhats in the series. Intent matters a lot to me, even a fuckup with good intentions is still capable of listening and adjusting. This is a pretty interesting point. I can’t remember the last time i saw a depiction of an openly fay or trans person without them being treated like a joke. I think you hit it on the head, Oda’s representation of them is full of stereotypes and stuff that has aged poorly, but he’s actually trying to show them in a really positive light. Asuron fucked around with this message at 06:16 on Aug 20, 2020 |
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Aug 20, 2020 06:13
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Can someone link these people to a d&d thread so we can get back to talking about who's gonna beat up who
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Aug 20, 2020 06:18
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Asuron posted:Acknowledging and understanding that the representation of women is a product of that culture isn’t an endorsement of it and everyone else in this thread seems to get it except for you and Libra. that post was to highlight someone saying "good faith does not mean benefit of the doubt" and the person responding to it with "I know that and it's actually that you're misunderstanding me, when I said good faith I just meant benefit of the doubt" anyway saying "the culture is misogynist" is not a salient point and if you want people to stop misinterpreting it as condoning said misogyny then maybe just literally stop saying it and expecting any different or I guess everyone else in the thread can put on their serious caps and Vaguely Acknowledge That The Bad Thing Exists for everyone's benefit(?)
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Aug 20, 2020 06:21
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jesus christ the new chapter cannot come soon enough
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Aug 20, 2020 06:21
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I think after big mom and kaido go down kidd is gonna pull something himself for a emperor slot
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Aug 20, 2020 06:55
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Asuron posted:He’s not endorsing it, he’s not supporting it, he’s just talking about it in a neutral tone to explain why the depictions might not be great My objection was specifically to this bit: Tolth posted:The "doesn't fly nowadays" only applies in certain parts of the west. That viewpoint is a lot weaker in Japan and in general throughout the rest of the world. which is an extremely Western Person thing to say, and felt like we were about to go down this road: Funky Valentine posted:Is this going to be that conversation that keeps happening where someone eventually implies that "not being lovely to women/LGBTQ people" is western imperialism? phew, that;'s a lot of quotes. I hate this conversation, I hope someone gets punched soon (and then I hope someone gets punched in the manga)
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Aug 20, 2020 07:08
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Bleck posted:that post was to highlight someone saying "good faith does not mean benefit of the doubt" and the person responding to it with "I know that and it's actually that you're misunderstanding me, when I said good faith I just meant benefit of the doubt" But no one else is misunderstanding it except for you, who at this point seem to be deliberately being obtuse about it. No one here is condoning misogyny, the last 5 pages is nothing but complaints about Sanji being gross for christ’s sake You’re getting aggro at people already on your side, i really don’t understand what you’re arguing against here.
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Aug 20, 2020 07:47
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Not to wildly change the subject or anything, but does anyone else suspect that Zoro beat Mihawk already? I kinda have the insane theory that he already did it and the eye scar was from their apocalyptic fight and that he just hasn’t bothered to bring it up because lording it over Sanji is beneath him. It would explain how he’s been curbstomping the new world...
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Aug 20, 2020 08:11
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Last Celebration posted:Not to wildly change the subject or anything, but does anyone else suspect that Zoro beat Mihawk already? I kinda have the insane theory that he already did it and the eye scar was from their apocalyptic fight and that he just hasn’t bothered to bring it up because lording it over Sanji is beneath him. I fully agree. Oda has deliberately avoided putting an upper limit on Zoro since the timeskip. I think he beat Mihawk but feels he did so unfairly.
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Aug 20, 2020 08:18
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No way Mihawk and perona would just be sailing like everything was chill if zoro beat mihawk
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Aug 20, 2020 09:21
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