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Ardennes posted:Yeah basically no one knows in English. I am serious. well, gently caress
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Aug 18, 2020 01:54
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Blarghalt posted:This video seems less like Lenin saying this and more like he's listening to someone else badly explain what socialism is and is just barely stopping himself from losing his goddamn mind It's Cenk Uyghur
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Aug 18, 2020 03:01
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gradenko_2000 posted:It's Cenk Uyghur Man really? I knew he was an anti union hack but that's embarrassing from someone considered by many to be on the left
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Aug 18, 2020 03:07
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indigi posted:any recs for histories of the early USSR? I'm probably gonna pick up October for an intro to the revolution but I'm more interested in what happemed after check out the soviet book scan thread
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Aug 18, 2020 03:23
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Atrocious Joe posted:check out the soviet book scan thread the what?!
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Aug 18, 2020 03:34
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gradenko_2000 posted:the what?! https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3934654&pagenumber=1&perpage=40
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Aug 18, 2020 03:41
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Atrocious Joe posted:check out the soviet book scan thread oh boy. I wonder if I can get any of these on my kindle in a readable way
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Aug 18, 2020 19:51
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I'm liking October so far, but I don't think Mieville does an adequate job explaining the membership dispuite between Lenin and Martov in 1903. I don't really understand what the difference in their positions was (although he does point out that neither did a lot of party members)
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Aug 18, 2020 21:42
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very simplified but prolly easiest way to understand it is lenin wanted party membership to be limited to what you could call professional revolutionaries, so a smaller group of people who committed to actually be active and engaged in party work treating it like an unpaid job almost. martovs position was a more mass approach and so as long as someone agreed with the parties politics and paid dues they should be eligible for membership.
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Aug 18, 2020 22:23
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StashAugustine posted:not disagreeing on the practical realities of a lot of religious organization, but the thing is that entirely assumes that there is no value to religious ritual itself, which i have absolutely no desire to argue with internet strangers but it's something that People Disagree on A fundamental problem is that in the West, we have a model based on taking the Roman State religion, which was mandatory to participate in as a citizen but not exclusive with any other religious belief and practice, and deciding that instead of rituals honoring a pagan god, it would instead worship a jealous monotheistic god. Applying this model to Shinto and Buddhism Japan was so disastrous, so obviously the debasement of good into pure evil, that revulsion and rejection of our way of thinking about religion because of what they themselves did with it, is a constant theme in popular culture.
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Aug 18, 2020 22:50
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apropos to nothing posted:very simplified but prolly easiest way to understand it is lenin wanted party membership to be limited to what you could call professional revolutionaries, so a smaller group of people who committed to actually be active and engaged in party work treating it like an unpaid job almost. martovs position was a more mass approach and so as long as someone agreed with the parties politics and paid dues they should be eligible for membership. that makes way more sense, thanks!
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Aug 18, 2020 23:08
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it does also bear noting that lenin's professional revolutionaries would for a large part be actual professionals, financed through various criminal enterprises - stalin cut his teeth being a very effective enforcer and fundraiser in the caucasus, particularly in baku the revolutionary's life wasn't simple, but a lot of bolsheviks were basically fugitives who couldn't expect to hold down a steady source of income and so absolutely had to receive funding from elsewhere - basically, lenin's party is one which demands that the rest of your life be subordinated to politics, whereas martov's isn't
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Aug 18, 2020 23:16
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yeah Lenin’s idea of the professional revolutionary is rooted in the russian nihilist movement of the 1800s. for more read catechism of a revolutionary or for a satire of the movement, Dostoyevsky’s the possessed/demons
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Aug 18, 2020 23:20
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that was true for many parties in russia at the time because nearly every form of political organizing was illegal. the mensheviks experienced the same thing, and it was for that reason that lenin argued for the closed party at that time, because of the underground nature of political organizing at that time it wouldnt be possible to have a mass party. even with that closed nature the bolsheviks and other parties police infiltrators still became leaders in their parties. read up on yevno azef for like the quintessential case for this because he was a police spy for the okhrana who rose to become the leader of the socialist revolutionary parties combat organization, which was the wing of the SRs tasked with committing terrorism.
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Aug 18, 2020 23:23
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yeah, or, like, malinovski the okhrana had agents at every level of these fortress organisations, they were a seriously scary institution. not that it was enough in the end...
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Aug 19, 2020 00:05
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V. Illych L. posted:yeah, or, like, malinovski turns out feeding your pre-industrial semi-feudal society into an industrial hell war, piece by piece, is a very VERY bad idea and no amount of secret police is going to stop your collapse
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Aug 19, 2020 00:57
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I dont think the problem is rooted in either the mass or professional nature of the party, but most importantly about the party inserting itself as the main controlling organ of the state post-revolution, with the hierarchisation of the party structure as its necessary component. The problem presents itself regardless of party membership structure as competition for power becomes possible and actually consequential
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Aug 19, 2020 13:42
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does anyone know why Lenin hated Switzerland so much
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Aug 19, 2020 22:35
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3bc_Sycuy8 found this dude's channel, can't remember if i saw this on leftbook or here, but his explainer video on "socialism w/ chinese characteristics" was good. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLDV9A4JNJg
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Aug 19, 2020 23:32
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Gene Hackman Fan posted:
that is the most embarrassing way of presenting a video you could imagine holy poo poo
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Aug 19, 2020 23:58
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indigi posted:does anyone know why Lenin hated Switzerland so much https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8ws_APXilE
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Aug 20, 2020 00:05
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Goast posted:that is the most embarrassing way of presenting a video you could imagine holy poo poo admittedly, fight song for me has shifted the window on cringe really loving hard, so i'll let a dude do his thing.
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Aug 20, 2020 00:21
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indigi posted:does anyone know why Lenin hated Switzerland so much i don't know, but the fact that they would soon both sides the literal nazis seems like a good place to start looking
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Aug 20, 2020 00:53
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indigi posted:does anyone know why Lenin hated Switzerland so much Their place in the world of finance can't be understated. There was a reason they both sides the literal nazis. Edit: Just think about what the phrase "Swiss bank account" means in the popular imagination.
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Aug 20, 2020 01:04
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strange feelings re Daisy posted:I found this bird on the Zapatista fundraising store and it made me smile. 
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Aug 20, 2020 01:14
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lenin notoriously hated watches and chocolate
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Aug 20, 2020 01:16
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I also hate watches.
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Aug 20, 2020 01:18
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if you have a smart phone already, then wearing a watch is a bourgeois affectation. but if you're rollin without a smart phone to tell the time, you're good and cool, and it makes sense to wear a watch
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Aug 20, 2020 01:21
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Gene Hackman Fan posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3bc_Sycuy8 no offense to you but to the video and the person in it, i really hate this kinda policy wonk explanation for why china is really socialist that seems to come from some communists. read up on the jasic struggles or many of the labor fights happening in south china over the past decade. the CCP has arrested many union organizers and socialists throughout the country and i have comrades who have been forced to flee the country for organizing factory workers there. can dismiss it as well youre a lovely trot and so are your comrades so good or whatever you like but the same has happened to many maoists and other socialists especially in student youth groups and again, young factory workers. some of whom have gone missing with no known whereabouts. regardless of whatever noble, benevolent, and farsighted plans the CCP has for the proletarian masses one day, the reality is they have been pretty brutal on cracking down on any instance where the workers have organized to fight for better working conditions for themselves right now.
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Aug 20, 2020 02:53
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apropos to nothing posted:no offense to you but to the video and the person in it, i really hate this kinda policy wonk explanation for why china is really socialist that seems to come from some communists. read up on the jasic struggles or many of the labor fights happening in south china over the past decade. the CCP has arrested many union organizers and socialists throughout the country and i have comrades who have been forced to flee the country for organizing factory workers there. can dismiss it as well youre a lovely trot and so are your comrades so good or whatever you like but the same has happened to many maoists and other socialists especially in student youth groups and again, young factory workers. some of whom have gone missing with no known whereabouts. regardless of whatever noble, benevolent, and farsighted plans the CCP has for the proletarian masses one day, the reality is they have been pretty brutal on cracking down on any instance where the workers have organized to fight for better working conditions for themselves right now. I like how communism means no hope, misplaced or no, can be allowed to exist unchallenged
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Aug 20, 2020 03:15
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Centrist Committee posted:I like how communism means no hope, misplaced or no, can be allowed to exist unchallenged there is hope but its in the fact that despite the repression the workers still are organizing and fighting for better conditions, not that the CCP is ensuring the GDP goes up fast enough
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Aug 20, 2020 03:21
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apropos to nothing posted:no offense to you but to the video and the person in it, i really hate this kinda policy wonk explanation for why china is really socialist that seems to come from some communists. read up on the jasic struggles or many of the labor fights happening in south china over the past decade. the CCP has arrested many union organizers and socialists throughout the country and i have comrades who have been forced to flee the country for organizing factory workers there. can dismiss it as well youre a lovely trot and so are your comrades so good or whatever you like but the same has happened to many maoists and other socialists especially in student youth groups and again, young factory workers. some of whom have gone missing with no known whereabouts. regardless of whatever noble, benevolent, and farsighted plans the CCP has for the proletarian masses one day, the reality is they have been pretty brutal on cracking down on any instance where the workers have organized to fight for better working conditions for themselves right now. absolutely no offence taken! i was hoping to hear a rebuttal, i just didn't know the how and where to word it. and you'd think a scientific socialism would keep track of what didn't work (e.g. repressing dissent is an open admission that you're not about the proletariat). critical support is a thing, and a socialist government should be able to allow for dissent (and being able to address that dissent in ways that matter to those who dissent) without leaving itself open to subversion from imperialism. can't have a synthesis without the thesis and the antithesis, right? Gene Hackman Fan fucked around with this message at 03:41 on Aug 20, 2020 |
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Aug 20, 2020 03:39
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Centrist Committee posted:I like how communism means no hope, misplaced or no, can be allowed to exist unchallenged i like how this is what you think criticism of anything that calls itself socialist is this thing you think communism is, it is a delicate thing, like a bubble, unable to survive the merest question
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Aug 20, 2020 03:44
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Cspam suxs
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Aug 20, 2020 04:53
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T-man posted:Cspam suxs And yet you continue to post here. Curious, no?
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Aug 20, 2020 04:54
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I bought torkil lauesens The Principle Contradiction from kersplebedeb and will let the thread know if I think its a better explanation of dialectical materialism than georges politzer. Waiting with bated breath i am sure
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Aug 20, 2020 04:56
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Algund Eenboom posted:I bought torkil lauesens The Principle Contradiction from kersplebedeb and will let the thread know if I think its a better explanation of dialectical materialism than georges politzer. Waiting with bated breath i am sure i liked the politzer book (that the rhizzone peeps put online), so i am actually looking forward to hearing ur thoughts on the principle of contradiction
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Aug 20, 2020 05:03
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hot take: the most advanced metaphysics (and therefore theories of materialism) have been in analytic philosophy. and most of what dialectics is trying to get at is captured by complex systems theory and poo poo like that. so if you want a fully updated take on what socialists meant by dialectical materialism that'll pass for Science, you'll need to integrate insights from those. yet no one is doing this, so diamat, as it stands, is a degenerative research program
Finicums Wake fucked around with this message at 05:10 on Aug 20, 2020 |
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Aug 20, 2020 05:06
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kersplebedeb
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Aug 20, 2020 05:12
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Finicums Wake posted:hot take: the most advanced metaphysics (and therefore theories of materialism) have been in analytic philosophy. and most of what dialectics is trying to get at is captured by complex systems theory and poo poo like that. so if you want a fully updated take on what socialists meant by dialectical materialism that'll pass for Science, you'll need to integrate insights from those. yet no one is doing this, so diamat, as it stands, is a degenerative research program i am just a baby dumbass who was radicalized in the gutter, comrade. i',m trying to do my best.
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Aug 20, 2020 05:19
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