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Good-Natured Filth posted:They do offer equity (unsure on the details of that yet), which is something I don't have today, but it's a privately held company that I doubt would ever be bought out or go public anytime soon, so that benefit is counted as a big $0 on my calculations sheet. Note that equity is always complex (e.g. shares vs RSUs vs options, do they have multiple classes, is there any debt, size of option pool, etc etc) and worth digging into - don't assume that a percentage is a percentage is a percentage. Happy to help via PM if you need it got off on a technicality fucked around with this message at 01:57 on Jul 31, 2020 |
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Jul 31, 2020 01:55
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As an update, I anchored high (50% raise), and they came back extremely low (7% raise) as their upper limit. After I declined, the recruiter indignantly told me that if I want that high of a salary, I need to start looking outside of our area. I reminded him that I'm not looking - they were the ones to reach out to me, and wished him the best of luck in his search. Anyways, thanks for the guidance Goons!
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Jul 31, 2020 21:16
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Good-Natured Filth posted:After I declined, the recruiter indignantly told me that if I want that high of a salary, I need to start looking outside of our area. I reminded him that I'm not looking - they were the ones to reach out to me Classic recruiter  Sorry (or not?) that it didn't lead to anything this time, but it's never a bad exercise to run through. Never know what'll happen!
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Jul 31, 2020 22:15
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Good-Natured Filth posted:As an update, I anchored high (50% raise), and they came back extremely low (7% raise) as their upper limit. After I declined, the recruiter indignantly told me that if I want that high of a salary, I need to start looking outside of our area. I reminded him that I'm not looking - they were the ones to reach out to me, and wished him the best of luck in his search. 
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Aug 1, 2020 00:14
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Good-Natured Filth posted:As an update, I anchored high (50% raise), and they came back extremely low (7% raise) as their upper limit. After I declined, the recruiter indignantly told me that if I want that high of a salary, I need to start looking outside of our area. I reminded him that I'm not looking - they were the ones to reach out to me, and wished him the best of luck in his search. Lol, well nice experience and this kind of thing helps re-enforce your market assumptions and its a good experience overall. Now you know you aren't overpaid, since they were willing to go over you salary! (Even if that's not enough to jump)
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Aug 1, 2020 01:29
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Good-Natured Filth posted:After I declined, the recruiter indignantly told me that if I want that high of a salary, I need to start looking outside of our area.  Obviously I don't know the details of your income and your city, but I suspect that applying outside your midwestern city does not work out well from a cost-of-living standpoint. Unless you work remote, of course.
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Aug 1, 2020 05:56
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Good-Natured Filth posted:As an update, I anchored high (50% raise), and they came back extremely low (7% raise) as their upper limit. After I declined, the recruiter indignantly told me that if I want that high of a salary, I need to start looking outside of our area. I reminded him that I'm not looking - they were the ones to reach out to me, and wished him the best of luck in his search. 
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Aug 1, 2020 14:57
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Any advice negotiating for a temporary government position? I was extended an offer at the bottom of the range they posted and it would involve moving across the country. I have no plans to take it at the $3500 per month they opened with and the top end of the range is around $5100. Is there a strict x years of experience equals this amount of pay or other things that will make it difficult to negotiate? Fwiw I have an extra year of exp. on top of the two years required.
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Aug 5, 2020 00:39
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Parallelwoody posted:Any advice negotiating for a temporary government position? I was extended an offer at the bottom of the range they posted and it would involve moving across the country. I have no plans to take it at the $3500 per month they opened with and the top end of the range is around $5100. Is there a strict x years of experience equals this amount of pay or other things that will make it difficult to negotiate? Fwiw I have an extra year of exp. on top of the two years required.
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Aug 5, 2020 02:06
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Hi Goons, I could use some advice. A year and a half ago I got laid off from my in-house design job and was hired as a graphic designer at a design/branding agency to support their branding team. My compensation was inline with the type of work I was doing. About 6 or so months into the job they asked me to help on some website projects and quickly realized that I was well-suited for digital projects (I did a lot of web stuff at my previous job and while freelancing) so they gradually shifted me from branding to web. By around December-January I was basically doing web projects full time but in a supportive capacity - the design directors were doing most of the heavy lifting and I was just making revisions or expanding on their ideas. At my annual review, the digital creative director (the branding creative director I was initially reporting had just been fired so the digital creative director was managing me in the interim) gave my glowing reviews and wanted me to continue supporting the digital team however I'd be 50-50 with digital and branding. They gave me a raise which I was fine with and matched the level of responsibility we discussed. Well Covid happened and they laid off a bunch of digital designers and a lot of that work was shifted to me. Instead of supporting web projects I am essentially doing the work of a UX/UI designer and this type of work is significantly more complex and valuable than the branding work I was doing. So while my salary for a Graphic Designer is accurate, for a UX/UI person I'm ~15k underpaid. The website that I had the greatest level of involvement (basically owned it from wireframe to launch) is going live in a few weeks so I'm thinking of broaching the topic of a title change/raise after that happens. My question is, is there any reason to not ask? We seem to be okay business wise now but I worry they're not even going to consider my request due to the employment climate and that this is something I should raised during my annual review or will need to wait until my next one to do so. I'm pretty sure the only reason I wasn't laid off is because it was significantly cheaper to have me learn website stuff than keep the actual UX/UI designers on. I'm also afraid if I ask and they say no they'll rightfully assume that I would seek employment elsewhere - I'm wondering if I should wait until I have some interviews lined up so I don't end up blind-sided. If/when I do ask, should I ask about titles and compensation at the same time or should I start the conversation off around the title and then bring up compensation mid-way into things?
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Aug 6, 2020 04:51
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Vogelspinne posted:Hi Goons, I could use some advice.
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Aug 6, 2020 11:40
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Vogelspinne posted:Hi Goons, I could use some advice. I think your analysis is pretty spot on. There is no initial harm in asking, they could say no and still get your UX/UI designer services for cheap. The only downside to this is that they might see you as a flight risk and start looking to replace you. The chance of this happening is something you are more likely to assess properly than any of us can. It's probably a mix between company policy, your relationship with your manager and the likeliness of him/her thinking you're actually going to leave. When brought up in a normal way I wouldn't expect your manager to immediately flag you as a flight risk. Especially if you can convincingly say you understand that in the current environment there's no room for payraises and you can wait until things are a bit more stable. It's always best to have something lined up when asking/demanding changes to your employment agreement simply because you can say "ok, I'll quit" and actually follow through with it. The standard advice of the thread is to switch jobs anyways, because even if they give in to your raise, they might only do this to buy time to hire/train a replacement for you. Same reason why you shouldn't take a counter offer when quitting. More often than not, the payraise from switching jobs is a lot higher than the one you'd get for staying at your current company. With the whole COVID situation going on I can imagine people would rather play it safe. So what's best for you kind of also depends on how happy you are with your current company and how easy it'd be for you to get new employment if they do decide to get rid of you unexpectedly. If your relationship with your manager is ok, I'd bring it up and see how he responds. For them finding and training someone (as underpaid as you are) to take over is probably more difficult than keeping you on board. If your manager acts weird about, start sending out resumes and interviewing as soon as the meeting ends.
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Aug 6, 2020 11:44
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Companies don't give you raises because they want to replace you. A conversation about responsibilities and titles shouldn't mark you as a flight risk, but you'll probably be able to gauge their willingness. Keep in mind, are you skilled enough to be a ux designer anywhere, or just with this website? If it's the latter they are going to be hesitant paying out for something they could potentially get a more experienced person for, and your BATNA is weak of you can only get lower paying jobs. I still think the conversation is a good idea, but I also think it's a good idea to look at what the job market is and where you'd fit. You may even find a move is better regardless!
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Aug 6, 2020 13:59
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Lockback posted:Companies don't give you raises because they want to replace you. A conversation about responsibilities and titles shouldn't mark you as a flight risk, but you'll probably be able to gauge their willingness. Keep in mind, are you skilled enough to be a ux designer anywhere, or just with this website? If it's the latter they are going to be hesitant paying out for something they could potentially get a more experienced person for, and your BATNA is weak of you can only get lower paying jobs. I still think the conversation is a good idea, but I also think it's a good idea to look at what the job market is and where you'd fit. You may even find a move is better regardless! I've been in involved in about a dozen or so professional websites designs across my career (along with another two dozen or so smaller digital projects like landing pages and email template design) half of which I played a significant role in (3 at this current company) so I definitely could leverage my experience elsewhere if needed - I am far from a total newbie, just wasn't hired specifically for my digital skills. I can also go back in-house and take a more senior position which would still be more pay than I'm currently making and better work-life balance on top. Dik Hz posted:So I know nothing about your field. But is there any risk they might think you're expendable after the website has launched? Not really, I'm typically working on 2-4 website projects at any given time - these are all projects for clients if that wasn't clear in my initial post - so as long as we have projects in the pipeline (we do) my job should be decently secure. LochNessMonster posted:I think your analysis is pretty spot on. There is no initial harm in asking, they could say no and still get your UX/UI designer services for cheap. The only downside to this is that they might see you as a flight risk and start looking to replace you. The chance of this happening is something you are more likely to assess properly than any of us can. It's probably a mix between company policy, your relationship with your manager and the likeliness of him/her thinking you're actually going to leave. When brought up in a normal way I wouldn't expect your manager to immediately flag you as a flight risk. Especially if you can convincingly say you understand that in the current environment there's no room for payraises and you can wait until things are a bit more stable. So it sounds like the best thing to do would be to start throwing out some resumes while also eventually broaching the topic with my boss when it feels like a good time and see how everything goes. Thanks y'all!
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Aug 6, 2020 15:44
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IMO there is potential harm in asking (you work in a field that was bloated before COVID and your employer may well take your asking for more money as their cue to go out and find someone "hungrier"). That quibble stated, you definitely should ask--but I would look around at the job market first, and get a solid handle on what salary your skills command on the market and how strong your BATNA will be. Then ask. Don't say "I have another offer, can you give me $X?" Leave that out and just say "my responsibilities have grown beyond my compensation level and I'm doing excellent work, what can we do to adjust this?" and if they stonewall you then you just accept the other offer and jump. You want to know they actually value you at a higher salary level, not that they're just acquiescing to your request to buy time to find a cheaper replacement.
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Aug 6, 2020 15:50
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Along with that doing research on current title and normal duties with that title vs what you are really doing and how that matches better with title x and comp y may help. Basically proving out that your job duties dont match your title and what you are really doing is new title.
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Aug 6, 2020 16:28
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I've been directed here from one of the IT threads and would be interested in BFC's take on my situation. I was going through the final interview process with several companies at once, including a FAANG. I was very open with all the recruiters about my progress with other companies which was really helpful to keep things moving quickly. I got rejected by the FAANG early yesterday, then got an offer from one of the remaining two. I told them that I'd like to give the other company a chance to make an offer. Unfortunately the third company also did not decide to move to the offer stage. At this point I'd like to negotiate but I feel like I may have been too open at this point. Obviously I'm going to try to dodge any specifics about whether I got another offer, but if the recruiter asks me point blank if I did I feel like I'll have to admit that they're the only ones with an offer on the table. I plan to start with something like "I had a chance to talk to COMPANY B and spent all night weighing my options and I believe that COMPANY A will be better for my career growth long term. If you can do $X annual salary instead I'll be happy to sign the paperwork today." Any tips on how to avoid getting into specifics about the other company? In the future I'll definitely be a little less forthcoming about my other prospects and just provide vague "I'm near the offer stage with several other opportunities" or something. E: also at this point, I've done everything with this recruiter over the phone. I suppose it would be weird to try to do negotiation over email, right? (Although the sound quality with her has always been awful so it wouldn't be unreasonable to not want to miss any important details) BallerBallerDillz fucked around with this message at 17:57 on Aug 12, 2020 |
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Aug 12, 2020 17:34
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Don't mention company B or C, just say the second part. "I am excited for the opportunity to work here. If you can do $X annual salary instead I'll be happy to sign the paperwork today."
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Aug 12, 2020 17:57
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Jordan7hm posted:Don't mention company B or C, just say the second part. "I am excited for the opportunity to work here. If you can do $X annual salary instead I'll be happy to sign the paperwork today." I agree with this. Also I would do this all in writing from here on out.
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Aug 12, 2020 18:11
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At the very least follow up phone conversations with email. Recruiters may have a strong preference to chat over the phone.
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Aug 12, 2020 18:24
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So I have one offer involving a cross country move, and I believe a second company is going to offer soon as I went through a second panel interview and got a follow up call regarding salary requirements. I pushed that back by saying I would need to review their total benefit package, which is going to get sent over to me. If they send that without a salary number, any tips on making them blink first for naming a number or do I just anchor high?
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Aug 12, 2020 18:25
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Parallelwoody posted:So I have one offer involving a cross country move, and I believe a second company is going to offer soon as I went through a second panel interview and got a follow up call regarding salary requirements. I pushed that back by saying I would need to review their total benefit package, which is going to get sent over to me. If they send that without a salary number, any tips on making them blink first for naming a number or do I just anchor high? I honestly think anchoring is a better bet when you have an offer in hand like that. I think the thread title is wrong and works best when you don't have a good insight into salary ranges and market rate, but even then you open yourself into a company anchoring you low. You know what your alternative is (factoring in the move value, positive or negative) so you should have a pretty good idea what number would make you want this new job. Do some glassdoor snooping to find some market rates you should be able to figure out a good number that would be above what a high-end offer would be and go from there. If they are not giving a number its unlikely they will reject you for being too high if your within a few standard deviations of their range. Have a number in mind on the offset so you don't get so caught up in the negotiation that you end up taking something lower than you actually want just because you think it's a win. Alternatively, it's dumb to turn them down and take a worse job just because they wouldn't budge after coming in above your target anyway.
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Aug 12, 2020 18:40
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Lockback posted:I honestly think anchoring is a better bet when you have an offer in hand like that. I think the thread title is wrong and works best when you don't have a good insight into salary ranges and market rate, but even then you open yourself into a company anchoring you low. I agree the thread title is more general advice, and a situation where you have the upper hand with a good BATNA and know the market rates is an exception when it can benefit you to anchor the conversation high. As long as you're truly willing to walk away to your BATNA then you have a lot of power in the negotiation.
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Aug 12, 2020 19:28
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As time goes on I’m ever more convinced that a human being’s ability to negotiate a raise at their current employer is neutral or helped by perceived flight risk. Or rather, it’s a composite of: - how scared is someone (a single identifiable person) that you leaving will make their life worse; - how capable is that person of spending the company’s money to stop their life being made worse; and - how much does that person trust that you won’t embarrass them by leaving anyway (this is where loyalty / human connection has an impact and is probably the source of the flight risk thing)? HR are probably the only people who could have a well informed view on whether or not you are long term going to stick with the firm, but outside of harassment and theft HR doesn’t fire people: it processes other departments firing people.
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Aug 12, 2020 19:56
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I am a little reticent to anchor due to the wide range that the position title is listed for in salary. I've seen JDs have a $16 per hour listing and it goes up to around 80k per year depending on area, and I don't want to come in too high and scare them off. Also, it was a bit of a weird situation as the panel interview consisted of 4 different department heads and it seems like I would be considered for each department. Speaking of, with fully remote positions, how are you all factoring in CoL into your negotiations/thought process? Emphasis on where you live, where the company is located, or just whichever is higher?
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Aug 12, 2020 20:15
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Parallelwoody posted:I am a little reticent to anchor due to the wide range that the position title is listed for in salary. I've seen JDs have a $16 per hour listing and it goes up to around 80k per year depending on area, and I don't want to come in too high and scare them off. Also, it was a bit of a weird situation as the panel interview consisted of 4 different department heads and it seems like I would be considered for each department. Speaking of, with fully remote positions, how are you all factoring in CoL into your negotiations/thought process? Emphasis on where you live, where the company is located, or just whichever is higher? Do you know the bands in general? I've never rejected someone because they requested a salary in band even if I didn't take it. Are you honestly just looking at a series of jobs that go from 33k to 80k a year? Woof. Your BATNA sucks here then. Myself I'd be more focused on "Let's get a good job instead of worrying about scaring people off" but that's a calculus you need to do. Most places would love to hire you under your market wage. For remote CoL, generally its where you live more than where the company is located, but if the company is located in a high CoL area you can use that to goose up your salary a bit. But ultimately, either the place has no policy or if they do they will set your band based on where you live. This changes if you are expected to do a bunch of traveling or if you are expected to commute out to an office on a semi-regular basis.
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Aug 12, 2020 20:56
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I'm looking at jobs in my field and at my experience level, but some places just don't put any value in HR beyond the absolute minimum but will still ask for 3 yrs exp. and a degree yet expect to pay barely above Target wages, so it's always a concern when applying without a salary listed. I've slow rolled the other offer enough that I feel confident using it as a back-up, and luckily my alternative to both of "no job" is perfectly acceptable to me at the moment due to the stability of my living situation/finances and need to study for my professional certification I'm sitting for in December. I guess if the top end is 80k I'll throw out 70 if they ask first. If that's too high and scares them off after several interviews they were probably looking to cap at 45k or something anyways. I do sometimes wonder if I should hold off until I gain my cert to increase my market value before accepting a position, as it's going to be harder to negotiate a raise/promotion with under a year at whichever place I get hired at.
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Aug 12, 2020 22:09
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Thanks for the advice everyone. This is what I went with:quote:Good Afternoon Pnurtis, So now to spend the rest of the afternoon  ing my mail. I've never done any negotiation of a job offer before and am very nervous, even though I know if they try to punish somebody for negotiating I don't want to work there anyway.
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Aug 12, 2020 22:38
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BallerBallerDillz posted:Thanks for the advice everyone. This is what I went with: This is good, you probably won't get a "LETS DO IT NOW" since usually a counter like this with a signing bonus takes a bit of time to get through. The platitudes are a nice touch, it helps make the HR types feel better.
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Aug 13, 2020 00:30
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Hey! Thanks BFC goons - they accepted my counter offer and I got an extra $7000/yr and an extra $700 signing bonus 
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Aug 15, 2020 18:59
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That is so many pizza parties. Congrats!
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Aug 16, 2020 03:22
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Hey BFC goons I’m looking at a job post military at a large well known online retailer. I know my BATNA and WATNA and I already have a good job although not in Logistics- my military speciality. I already had a first round interview with a military recruiter from the company and I looked into the glass door salary and it lists $80k-174k. Stupid me I didn’t think that they would actually take my application seriously so when it came time to put down the price for what I was looking to make $110k, which is what I put in their online form. That’s what I was looking at for going full time military(O3) or at a GS-13 position. That said I talked to my wife and the next tound interview of 3-4 hours will be in two weeks. She said to add on the benefits package I would expect $12k just for healthcare so minimum i’m looking at $132k or so and probably plus 10-20% puts me at 158k I already have a great job that changed my life but it’s much less than that. I figure when they ask I’ll not name a number until the end but try to anchor them at 158k and ask for 4 weeks of vacation but I’ll accept 6 weeks of vacation and 132... thoughts? Amazon
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Aug 16, 2020 17:30
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If you believe the range, why not ask for 174k? Or 200k? If you want six weeks vacation, ask for it, don't ask for less and hope they negotiate against themselves on your behalf. I think you already shot yourself in the foot to some degree. I would treat this as a chance to practice interviewing, asserting your demands, and walking away if they aren't met. It feels better than you might think. There's tons of info on Amazon out there I'm sure - finding things like their vacation policy is probably not too hard, though I have not done so myself. Some things they might not waver on. I know they are notoriously stingy and their offers are very front-loaded - if you want to maximize your income, be prepared to move jobs again in a few years if you end up working there.
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Aug 16, 2020 21:03
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White Chocolate posted:Hey BFC goons I’m looking at a job post military at a large well known online retailer. I know my BATNA and WATNA and I already have a good job although not in Logistics- my military speciality. I already had a first round interview with a military recruiter from the company and I looked into the glass door salary and it lists $80k-174k. I don't think they budge on vacation policy, which was 2 weeks "vacation" and 1 week "personal time" for the first year, and with an extra 1 week vacation after that. I have no clue why the split up "personal time" from vacation, but it doesn't include sick time AFAIK so  . I wouldn't be super concerned that you hosed yourself over by naming a number. Obviously it's not ideal, but for reference I went through this process about a year ago and got the recruiter to give a number first right before my interview day. When I got the call that I was going to get an offer they asked me about salary, I mentioned the number the recruiter had given me and said that had seemed reasonable. They came back a few hours later a offered me another $10k above that. That company literally "Hire and develop the best" as one of their core values and they actually put their money where their mouth is. If the recruiter hasn't explained it to you, compensation is a bit weird. It's broken up into base salary, signing bonus and RSU's. Base salary is what it sounds like, but is essentially capped around ~$150k depending on region. RSU's are stock grants paid out over the course of 4 years, but heavily backloaded. I think you get 5% of them after 1 year, another 10% after 2 years, and then 45% at the end of your third and fourth years. The signing bonus is generally 50% of your total RSU grant paid out over the course your first two years. Good luck with your interviews. BeastOfExmoor fucked around with this message at 04:13 on Aug 17, 2020 |
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Aug 17, 2020 04:10
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I’ve got an interview coming up (contacted by a recruiter from within the company) and I literally have no idea what I should be expecting in terms of salary. The position is for a “technical support manager.” It’s in NYC. The company is (well was) a tech startup that got bought out this year by a much larger company, but is supposedly operating independently. I know there will be direct reports, but am unsure how many. From what I understand, the position reports directly to a VP (of the startup portion). The position also seems to act as a bridge between engineering and support. I’m concerned about being pushed for a number and anchoring too low. Googling technical support manager is giving me absolutely wild differences in salary. I’ve seen median reports as low at $60k and as high as $134k. I’ve never held this type of position before so I’m totally clueless as to salary expectations. I’m also in a stable place and not afraid to walk away if the position is underpaid. Does anyone have any idea at all on salary?
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Aug 20, 2020 18:21
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This is a case where I'd really want them to name a number, but I've managed these types of titles before and they really do range. For NYC I'd say the median is probably in the 110-120k range PLUS bonus, so I'd say trying to anchor at or above a 150k total comp package. This depends on lots and lots of stuff though. 1. How close to software engineering/dev ops is this role? If its a Support Role where you are doing work right alongside the code I'd go on the higher side. If it's more call center jockeying, even though that job sucks its easier to find people in that role so it'd be on the lower side. 2. How much after-hours do you have to do? If you are 24x7 with no overseas office that answer is going to be "lots". If you don't get comp time, your salary should be higher. 3. You mentioned bridge, do you have SWE experience or a Comp Sci degree or anything? If so, that feeds into #1 and those roles are valuable.
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Aug 20, 2020 18:46
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Lockback posted:This is a case where I'd really want them to name a number, but I've managed these types of titles before and they really do range. For NYC I'd say the median is probably in the 110-120k range PLUS bonus, so I'd say trying to anchor at or above a 150k total comp package. This depends on lots and lots of stuff though. Thanks for the info. $150k total comp is a lot higher than I would have gone, and it feels good to get a consensus. I agree about waiting for a number from them, but I’d rather be somewhat prepared so I don’t get railroaded. No SWE or comp sci experience at all. The management part looks to be customer support management (call center), but the job appears to include bug and incident report management, building support documentation, and being the last in line for directly supporting a customer. I’m going off an older job posting as there isn’t an active listing at the moment. I’m early in the process so I don’t know anything about after hours/comp time. I have current experience with the majority of this. With all of that, would you say $150k total comp makes sense? There seems to be quite a bit more than just managing people.
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Aug 20, 2020 19:21
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Ok, so it's mostly call center so I might expect a little lower, and keep in mind an anchor is something that you probably won't get so don't go too low. It is still NYC though so I think realistically you should be looking for 100k + ~15% bonus, so $115k. Let's toss 25% on top of that to give them room and you're at $150k. If you think based on your BATNA and what this company is doing (I am working on sorta incomplete info here) would put your salary closer to $80k+ 15% bonus then you're more like 90k so the anchor there should be 110k. So I think that's the range you should be looking to anchor depending on what you know about the company and the job. Again, given NYC I don't think they will eject you for a $150k TOTAL package ask.
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Aug 20, 2020 19:41
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Lockback posted:Ok, so it's mostly call center so I might expect a little lower, and keep in mind an anchor is something that you probably won't get so don't go too low. Thanks for the continued help. I’m trying not to out what the company is, but they’re a high end consumer hardware+software+subscription service company, with an already decent install base. The purchase price the for the parent company was in the 100s of millions.
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Aug 20, 2020 20:32
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[snip]
hot sorcery fucked around with this message at 15:35 on Feb 6, 2021 |
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Aug 20, 2020 23:21
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