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Ola posted:Why is it so important to give Tesla competition? I think we're still at the point where the interesting competition is anything EV vs anything not EV. It's not really that interesting when 99% of the market is driven by subsidies and regulations. Change the regulations and the EV numbers go up or down.
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Aug 21, 2020 18:55
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Ola posted:Why is it so important to give Tesla competition? I think we're still at the point where the interesting competition is anything EV vs anything not EV. I want to buy an EV crossover in the next year and will not buy a Tesla so it’s of personal interest to me that they’re are model Y competitors. Choice is good for adoption.
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Aug 21, 2020 19:08
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VideoGameVet posted:I’m staying at an apartment during the week and I believe I spied a charger in the garage. I figure I can slow charge at the house during the week and at least find some chargers in LA. There’s now decent lease deals on the Hyundai EV’s, the Ionic and the Kona. Maybe polestar 2? It's more expensive but does qualify for the full federal tax credit unlike Tesla. I've used the new Volvo adaptive cruise and it's really good.
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Aug 21, 2020 19:12
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Gamesguy posted:Renting a car is probably more efficient than building a massive charging infrastructure with dubious local power sourcing though? I always enjoy when the "Why would you switch from a horse to a car?" arguments show up in here. Ola posted:Why is it so important to give Tesla competition? I think we're still at the point where the interesting competition is anything EV vs anything not EV. Until prices are comparable for similar-sized vehicles, we're not even at that point for people who wait more than 3 years before buying a new car. Competition improves the end result, whether through higher quality, better features, lower prices, or a combination. If nothing else, it's a wider market for the customer to find something that's right for them. There are a lot of varying desires and needs out there, and Tesla is not the answer to a lot of them. Godholio fucked around with this message at 20:18 on Aug 21, 2020 |
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Aug 21, 2020 20:15
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VideoGameVet posted:I’m staying at an apartment during the week and I believe I spied a charger in the garage. I figure I can slow charge at the house during the week and at least find some chargers in LA. There’s now decent lease deals on the Hyundai EV’s, the Ionic and the Kona. Oh yeah, most EVs on the US market will work for you, you might not even have to charge in LA, since EVs get excellent range in bad traffic. For your charging needs, many shipping centers (especially in LA, I'd imagine) will have some 6kW chargers, sit back and have a coffee or something for a couple hours, or alternatively, find the closest DC fast charger and spend 20 minutes charging up to 80% Wednesday night, and be ready to head home Friday. You can download the Plugshare app to get an in-depth look at the charging landscape around your apartment.
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Aug 21, 2020 20:21
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Ola posted:Why is it so important to give Tesla competition? I think we're still at the point where the interesting competition is anything EV vs anything not EV. Competition drives innovation, and EVs being on every dealer lot will drive adoption. I don't really get what you're trying to say here E: specificallyI want a company to make a small EV pickup, I'll continue to have an ICE pickup until an EV equivalent comes out. Elviscat fucked around with this message at 20:28 on Aug 21, 2020 |
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Aug 21, 2020 20:24
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Elviscat posted:Competition drives innovation, and EVs being on every dealer lot will drive adoption. Yeah, when a new EV is launched, it adds to the pool of EVs and helps drive adoption. But journalists and internet discussions obsess over Tesla so everything is about beating Tesla at something. As if there were only Tesla buyers before and any new EV has to steal business from Tesla in order to sell. That's wrong, is what I'm trying to say.
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Aug 21, 2020 20:50
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its usually good practice when you launch product to have it be compelling vs existing products in the market
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Aug 21, 2020 20:54
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Competition drives innovation, but as anyone who's played lemonade stand knows, sometimes the innovation is just figuring out how few expensive lemons you can get away with putting in your free water to still make a profit selling "lemonade". The answer is zero lemons. Turns out people will actually pay for free water! 
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Aug 21, 2020 21:05
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Ola posted:Yeah, when a new EV is launched, it adds to the pool of EVs and helps drive adoption. But journalists and internet discussions obsess over Tesla so everything is about beating Tesla at something. As if there were only Tesla buyers before and any new EV has to steal business from Tesla in order to sell. That's wrong, is what I'm trying to say. Oh yeah, I see what you're saying now. It's because auto journalists, especially the ones specializing in EVs suck. They're still pretending that Tesla has some sort of crazy moon technology that is unbeatable by other brands. I'd hazard that most people have much less of a clue how battery chemistry, inverters, and electric motors work, than they do the ICE powertrain components, which feeds back into this loop. There is some veracity though, at least in the US, Tesla really opened the market for EVs up beyond eco-nerds, so they're the benchmark that everyone has to measure up to.
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Aug 21, 2020 22:32
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Hey folks, I've been considering getting an EV as a first car for a while - probably a second hand Leaf. My current transport needs are very low - I'd like to have some local transport and I make ~100 mile journeys about twice a year. I'm in the UK - does this sound at all reasonable? Anything specific I should be looking out for with a used EV? Are they suitable for first cars?
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Aug 22, 2020 00:41
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Godholio posted:I always enjoy when the "Why would you switch from a horse to a car?" arguments show up in here. By your logic everyone should drive a pickup truck just in case they need to move a mattress once a year. I'm perfectly OK with my EV not being able to do a roadtrip across America, I want something that works great for me 99% of the time rather than merely OK 100% of the time. Gamesguy fucked around with this message at 01:02 on Aug 22, 2020 |
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Aug 22, 2020 00:59
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How new do you want? 30kW battery '17 Leafs are a good value (in the states at least), they suffer from battery degradation issues though, try to find one with 12 "bars" of health (google around to find what I mean) also evaluate the charging landscape in your area, download an app that tells you where they are, can you charge at your place of residence? Can you charge along your trip routes? Figure out if a range-limited EV like a leaf will work for your travel needs. E: Gamesguy posted:Instead of compromising with an EV that'll fit 100% of your situations, why not get one that's good for 99% and rent something for that other 1%? ...What?
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Aug 22, 2020 01:03
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Elviscat posted:...What?
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Aug 22, 2020 01:20
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Godholio posted:And that's still $20,000 more than the average new car sale in the US and out of reach of 80% of the country financially. I get that we're focusing on the EV thread's population specifically, but the e-tron is not the game changer anybody needs at all. Shoveling deep, short-term discounts to move undesired inventory that's been building up isn't going to push Tesla anywhere. If anything, it probably reinforces their idea that they're already doing it right. This goes back to the question of why car makers are avoiding the US with cheaper EVs, even if we already know the answer (they're not crossovers, city cars don't sell here, US has range anxiety if the car can't get over 200mi on a single charge.) Something like the Renault Zoe or Dacia Spring could be a game changer with range and price point but they're not going to come out to the US.
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Aug 22, 2020 01:25
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Elviscat posted:How new do you want? 30kW battery '17 Leafs are a good value (in the states at least), they suffer from battery degradation issues though, try to find one with 12 "bars" of health (google around to find what I mean) also evaluate the charging landscape in your area, download an app that tells you where they are, can you charge at your place of residence? Can you charge along your trip routes? There's charging nearby, though not at my residence (at the moment, possibly I can get the landlord to sort something, it's an underground shared garage) - I've had a look and it appears that there are chargers along my planned longer trip routes (they are mostly motorways). I'm pretty sure that a short range EV would cover the majority of my needs. Thanks for the tip on the "bars". Looking at the prices, I may really only be able to justify an older 24kW model - are they likely to be suffering more from the degradation issues? Is that something that can be addressed after purchase?
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Aug 22, 2020 01:33
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Elviscat posted:It's because auto journalists, especially the ones specializing in EVs suck. They're still pretending that Tesla has some sort of crazy moon technology that is unbeatable by other brands. I'd hazard that most people have much less of a clue how battery chemistry, inverters, and electric motors work, than they do the ICE powertrain components, which feeds back into this loop. An ostensibly intelligent person in a technical field told me yesterday that Tesla is 10 years ahead of the competition. It’s almost impossible to fathom how stupid it is to say that a 10 year old company is 10 years ahead of the competition in a very competitive industry, but that’s the state of EV discourse, at least in the US. That opinion gets published with some regularity and not laughed out of the room.
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Aug 22, 2020 01:38
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G1mby posted:There's charging nearby, though not at my residence (at the moment, possibly I can get the landlord to sort something, it's an underground shared garage) - I've had a look and it appears that there are chargers along my planned longer trip routes (they are mostly motorways). I'm pretty sure that a short range EV would cover the majority of my needs. Thanks for the tip on the "bars". So I assume you're not using it to commute? I'd pursue the landlord angle, if you can't at least get a normal outlet to charge, the EV's gonna be a pain, unless maybe you use it to go to the shops and they all have chargers? If you can get an outlet it sounds like it's perfect for your needs. The 24kW batteries are quite stout and don't have the specific degradation issues the later 30kWh's do, they lack thermal management, but that shouldn't be an issue in the UK, since you don't get extreme hot or extreme cold weather. For your 100 mile trip you'll want one with Chademo (high speed DC) charging capability, or a lot of patience since you'll have to charge at least once on that trip with a 24kWh battery. E ^^^ yeah, IDGI, Induction and PMG motors, IGBT inverters and lithium batteries have been used in industry for ages now, they're doing stuff with battery chemistry, but it's all in partnership with one of the Big Three battery manufacturers, so it's not like it's exclusive. They do seem like they have pretty solid drivetrain and software engineers though, and they seem to have hit a sweet spot with range/reliability/price, and of course their excellent charging network, but that's all just solid work with extant technology, they're not breaking ground afaict. Elviscat fucked around with this message at 01:52 on Aug 22, 2020 |
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Aug 22, 2020 01:44
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Elviscat posted:So I assume you're not using it to commute? No, work is walking distance, this would be mostly for short trips outside town. There's a charger at a garage around the corner which would be the fallback if I can't get an outlet in the garage. I'll keep an eye out for the Chademo option - that does sound necessary. Thanks, this has been very helpful!
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Aug 22, 2020 01:52
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I feel like a long road trip is the scenario where I'd be most frustrated at driving a rental car. Every one I've ever been in has pissed me off in one way or another.
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Aug 22, 2020 01:54
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After about a month of ownership I have come to the conclusion that a Model 3 is still a bit of a novelty in far Southwest Wisconsin. (Despite the fact that I have seen 7 other Teslas in town, several of them quite regularly.) People are always looking at me when I am out driving, people walking by on the sidewalks seeing it parked at the house often point at it, and today someone practically ran up to me in a parking lot asking for my referral link.
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Aug 22, 2020 01:57
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G1mby posted:There's charging nearby, though not at my residence (at the moment, possibly I can get the landlord to sort something, it's an underground shared garage) - I've had a look and it appears that there are chargers along my planned longer trip routes (they are mostly motorways). I'm pretty sure that a short range EV would cover the majority of my needs. Thanks for the tip on the "bars". Volt might be better in your case. GM built a lot of extra capacity into those but idk what prices are like compared to used leafs.
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Aug 22, 2020 02:59
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https://youtu.be/upk1S-ATV6g There's always the new Kandi K23! 180 mile range on a 41.4kw battery. About 20k after incentives. GlassEye-Boy fucked around with this message at 04:15 on Aug 22, 2020 |
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Aug 22, 2020 04:12
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Elviscat posted:How new do you want? 30kW battery '17 Leafs are a good value (in the states at least), they suffer from battery degradation issues though, try to find one with 12 "bars" of health (google around to find what I mean) also evaluate the charging landscape in your area, download an app that tells you where they are, can you charge at your place of residence? Can you charge along your trip routes? Or, get a 30 kwh Leaf with 9 bars, drive it a winter, and get a 40 kwh leaf!* * may take 6 weeks at the dealer to have 40 kwh battery installed, plus a couple rounds of arguments.
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Aug 22, 2020 04:43
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G1mby posted:Hey folks, I've been considering getting an EV as a first car for a while - probably a second hand Leaf. My current transport needs are very low - I'd like to have some local transport and I make ~100 mile journeys about twice a year. I'm in the UK - does this sound at all reasonable? Anything specific I should be looking out for with a used EV? Are they suitable for first cars? Since you are in Europe, a Renault Zoe should suit you well. Your use case matches what we use our Zoe for.
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Aug 22, 2020 05:17
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blindjoe posted:Or, get a 30 kwh Leaf with 9 bars, drive it a winter, and get a 40 kwh leaf!* How's that going? Do you have a wicked sick 150 mile Leaf with goofy headlights?
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Aug 22, 2020 05:29
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Elviscat posted:How's that going? Do you have a wicked sick 150 mile Leaf with goofy headlights? 121 miles at 73%. it would only go 130km on a full charge before (its was at the dealers and Im away for work so I haven't driven it with a full charge yet) 
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Aug 22, 2020 06:32
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YOLOsubmarine posted:An ostensibly intelligent person in a technical field told me yesterday that Tesla is 10 years ahead of the competition. It’s almost impossible to fathom how stupid it is to say that a 10 year old company is 10 years ahead of the competition in a very competitive industry, but that’s the state of EV discourse, at least in the US. That opinion gets published with some regularity and not laughed out of the room. I heard a marketing professor tell the Chevy Nova myth as fact a few years ago. 🤔 That being said, having a jump start on actual experience making EVs is not a bad thing for Tesla to have.
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Aug 22, 2020 07:28
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G1mby posted:Hey folks, I've been considering getting an EV as a first car for a while - probably a second hand Leaf. My current transport needs are very low - I'd like to have some local transport and I make ~100 mile journeys about twice a year. I'm in the UK - does this sound at all reasonable? Anything specific I should be looking out for with a used EV? Are they suitable for first cars? I would go for a Leaf over a Zoe. Zoes have only recently been given CCS fast charging, before that they would only do 43 kW AC charging, which is pretty fast, but the stations are few and far between. CHAdeMO will also go away I think, but not for a long time. This looks like a good one: https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202008192697996 I noticed this says "battery owned" and others say "battery leased". That option wasn't available in Norway so I don't know what it entails, not knowing more about it I'd definitely go for battery owned.
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Aug 22, 2020 07:57
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I thought it was something to make people less worried about the life of the battery. You pay for car minus the battery, then lease the battery from the manufacturer. I also haven't seen that in a long time, I assume that's not available on new cars but I haven't looked at buying a car in the EU.
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Aug 22, 2020 08:14
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MomJeans420 posted:I thought it was something to make people less worried about the life of the battery. You pay for car minus the battery, then lease the battery from the manufacturer. Yeah, that's certainly it, but I meant like what are the terms and conditions. When the lease expires, do they send round a man to rip it out? Do you have to pay a bunch more? In all likelihood, Nissan just goes "yeah that whole thing was a mistake, people worried too much about batteries, keep it".
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Aug 22, 2020 08:40
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Ola posted:I noticed this says "battery owned" and others say "battery leased". That option wasn't available in Norway so I don't know what it entails, not knowing more about it I'd definitely go for battery owned. Zoes are usually sold as a combo of car(one time payment) and battery(leased), where the battery lease covers road assistance and mainteinance too. A car sold as battery leased means you need to call renault to reactivate/migrate the lease or they will ask you to pay for the battery pack(give or take 9k€). Leafs never used that option.
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Aug 22, 2020 11:49
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I'm glad Tesla made EVs affordable for the masses by coming out with the Model 3 six months after the Bolt was released. I think the idea that idea that Tesla is ahead of the competition is from comparing price points. A model Y at $50k looks pretty compelling compared to the competition selling at $70k. However, I don't think the price delta is due to any secret sauce on Tesla's part. Legacy auto makers actually have to make a profit on their cars. If Tesla increased prices by $10k so they made money instead of selling cars for a loss it would change the narrative quite a bit.
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Aug 22, 2020 13:07
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If ford or toyota comes out with an electric Ranger or Tacoma that can at least get comparable range as my current M3, AND has a built up network of chargers that is easily accessible ala Superchargers, I would trade in a heartbeat.
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Aug 22, 2020 13:54
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FAT CURES MUSCLES posted:If ford or toyota comes out with an electric Ranger or Tacoma that can at least get comparable range as my current M3, AND has a built up network of chargers that is easily accessible ala Superchargers, I would trade in a heartbeat. That seems like a weird apple to oranges comparison. Electric truck vs ICE sedan.
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Aug 22, 2020 13:58
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Nfcknblvbl posted:These things are pretty neat: because people will steal them?
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Aug 22, 2020 14:13
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SlowBloke posted:Zoes are usually sold as a combo of car(one time payment) and battery(leased), where the battery lease covers road assistance and mainteinance too. A car sold as battery leased means you need to call renault to reactivate/migrate the lease or they will ask you to pay for the battery pack(give or take 9k€). Leafs never used that option. That is the setup we have for our Zoe and we would roughly have to pay the lease for 7-8 years before it exceeds the cost of the battery. Ola posted:I would go for a Leaf over a Zoe. Zoes have only recently been given CCS fast charging, before that they would only do 43 kW AC charging, which is pretty fast, but the stations are few and far between. CHAdeMO will also go away I think, but not for a long time. At least in Sweden, the amount of Zoe’s really started going up within the last two years, which would make them the same generation as mine and therefore capable of fast charging.
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Aug 22, 2020 14:18
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MrLogan posted:I'm glad Tesla made EVs affordable for the masses by coming out with the Model 3 six months after the Bolt was released. I mean, good luck finding any credible source in the abyss of misinformation floating around on the web, but at least in articles dated in the last year or so on google for "tesla model 3 margin" the consensus seems to be ~20%, with some configurations almost reaching 40%.
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Aug 22, 2020 14:39
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Indiana_Krom posted:Can you post credible sources showing Tesla is still selling Model 3/Ys at a loss? Also, lol that the Model 3 is for the masses. It is still a luxury car and competitor for those who would buy BMW, Mercedes, Volvo or Lexus as examples.
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Aug 22, 2020 17:00
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Indiana_Krom posted:Can you post credible sources showing Tesla is still selling Model 3/Ys at a loss? Tesla, as a company, has only ever managed to turn a profit by selling carbon credits, which means they aren’t breaking even on product. You could argue that they are aggressively reinvesting and that’s why they never show a net profit on sales despite having supposedly healthy margins, and maybe that’s true, but pretty much ever auto maker is doing heavy investment in new plant and research all the time and they still need to also turn a profit from actually selling cars. Currently Tesla is selling cars and pollution rights and it’s the pollution rights that have the great margins. https://www.forbes.com/sites/greatspeculations/2020/07/23/behind-teslas-profits/#3cefdc4993e6
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Aug 22, 2020 17:02
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