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Gripweed posted:In retrospect I do kinda enjoy the fact that the central mystery of Divers, Sara, is a mystery only to the audience. She's not a mystery to the characters because they straight up do not care. A strange psychic girl shows up with no Gunpla in the game about having a Gunpla, and they don't even think to question it. I mean they straight-up state that lots of people don't even log in with gunpla, they just log in to socialize with friends.
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Aug 24, 2020 00:56
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everythingWasBees posted:I mean they straight-up state that lots of people don't even log in with gunpla, they just log in to socialize with friends. She also has no friends, knows nothing about and doesn't care about Gundam, and despite not having a Gunpla the few times she initiates a conversation it's usually about someone else's Gunpla.
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Aug 24, 2020 01:05
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Gripweed posted:She also has no friends, knows nothing about and doesn't care about Gundam, and despite not having a Gunpla the few times she initiates a conversation it's usually about someone else's Gunpla. I have about 30 hours in FF14 the majority of which was spent wandering around solo ignoring game content and playing dress up (Ive not even gotten to HW yet) so like that's actually pretty relatable ngl
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Aug 24, 2020 01:07
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it might have been 300 e - I just checked and it's 300
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Aug 24, 2020 01:08
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Divers is really cool and good any time it doesn't focus on the main plot. The Lotus mission episode is fantastic, the episode where Riku fights Tigerwolf is cool (though it would work better in a show actually about gunpla fighting as a sport). The main plot however, sucks real bad, especially towards the end. It is absolutely ridiculous how the moral dilemma at the end of Divers is "Is it ok to actually murder someone to keep an MMO running" and we're supposed to find characters on both sides of the argument relatable, even if we're also clearly meant to agree with the protagonists.
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Aug 24, 2020 01:17
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Like, Gundam as a whole is kind of a lovely franchise where the given quality of any given entry is a crapshoot, but if your problem with any random given show is that it wastes a lot of episodes on irrelevant fights, tries to make people cheer for space nazis or treats women like disposable character development devices, I don't think the esports show with the cute furry named after the honorable nazi and the damsel in distress the heroes must save from execution by defragmentation is any better. The really lovely thing about Build divers is that it reaches heights of suckitude rarely seen in the franchise. People accidentally create true AI, callously decide this is somehow less important (or profitable) than a videogame server and then set up the worst possible way to resolve the plot: Kyoya, established cool dude that we're supposed to think is cool, secretly makes a deal with Riku so that they'll settle this matter with an honorable duel. His argument is that they created her with their feelings for gunpla, therefore they should be the ones to decide what happens to her. Not only is Kyoya also treating a human being like garbage, he is also going behind the backs of his allies and the admin who are his real life friends, so he is a dick, a traitor, and we're supposed to think he's cool. I hate this. This is a case of plot induced stupidity and plot induced assholery comparable to Nina Purpleton suddenly deciding she is going to help Gato. Even Zeheart deciding he was going to stay loyal to Ezelcant was more consistent with Zeheart's previous characterization and can be explained as sunk cost fallacy thinking. Yes, I'm comparing Gundam Age positively to a different Gundam show. That's how bad Gundam Build Divers is. I'm glad that ReRise is apparently good and I might choose to watch it eventually because honestly everything I hear sounds neat but that doesn't mean anyone should have to sit through the prequel.
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Aug 24, 2020 01:19
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I just hope the next one of these they do actually focuses on the actual gunpla aspects for once, feels like something they've been ignoring more and more ever since the original Build Fighters ended
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Aug 24, 2020 01:23
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Remember the first villain arc of Build Divers, where the villain hated GBN and wanted to destroy it because he thought GBN was vapid, boring garbage and it destroyed the more "real" gunpla battle system that he loved? And how that arc culminated in Riku going to duel him in the old style of gunpla battle system and it ended up being one of the first fights in the series that had stakes and felt like a competition?drrockso20 posted:I just hope the next one of these they do actually focuses on the actual gunpla aspects for once, feels like something they've been ignoring more and more ever since the original Build Fighters ended Build Fighters was pretty in on the gunpla side of things mattering a lot. That aspect got dropped almost entirely in Try and Divers except for the "let's go visit/recruit a gunpla savant" phases of team building and the obligatory midseason upgrades.
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Aug 24, 2020 01:26
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I don't even like toys and the first BF made me actually think gunpla looked fun. Like I actually felt bad when the models people invested so much love and effort into got torn to shreds. It was that good.
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Aug 24, 2020 01:32
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MODEL DAMAGE LEVEL SET TO B
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Aug 24, 2020 01:36
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The AI plot in divers is dumb but also only exists in like four episodes of a two-cour show and the fight in the last episode was really good The rest of the show has kind of a boring plot but is perfectly fine, has some fun characters (magee, sharyhar), has a really good character arc with ayame and a decent one for k01, has a bunch of good fights and, and has some of the best robot designs in the franchise. The ending I agree had a dumb premise but the rest of the show is pretty enjoyable and even the ending bits have some good fights and character moments.
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Aug 24, 2020 01:38
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also "are we going to eliminate this entity that we don't even agree is actually living or sentient and to us it's just an amalgamation of bugs in order to save the world that we love (and keeps us employed)" is kind of less dumb than "is it ethical to try and destroy the entire population of earth"
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Aug 24, 2020 01:42
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spoilers, trying to eliminate the entirety of Earth's current population is a bad thing and they tend not to be successful with this
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Aug 24, 2020 01:44
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There’s a lot of Zeta hate in this thread and people shouldn’t be so mean to it.
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Aug 24, 2020 01:51
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Zeta is, in fact, very good
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Aug 24, 2020 01:54
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Zeta would benefit a fuckton from a solid editing down to movie trilogy length. Shame that A New Translation botched it so hard.
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Aug 24, 2020 01:57
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I would probably have a very different opinion about zeta if it was a cour or two shorter
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Aug 24, 2020 01:59
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why does rosamia even exist
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Aug 24, 2020 02:08
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dogsicle posted:why does rosamia even exist
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Aug 24, 2020 02:10
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everythingWasBees posted:also "are we going to eliminate this entity that we don't even agree is actually living or sentient and to us it's just an amalgamation of bugs in order to save the world that we love (and keeps us employed)" is kind of less dumb than "is it ethical to try and destroy the entire population of earth" What show or movie even tries to pretend it's ethical? I'm assuming you're talking about Char's Counterattack, but Char isn't trying to destroy the planet because it's the ethical choice, and isn't even trying to destroy it at all; he's trying to irradiate the environment so humanity will have no choice but to leave it because he's angry that they've continued living on the planet and are threatening to destroy the entire environment. He's clearly presented as being in the wrong throughout the movie though, and lies through his rear end to every one of his allies about his plan and motives to boot. He tells Nanai he's doing it for Newtypes, he tells Gynunei he's doing it for Spacenoids, he tells Quess he'll put aside his past loves in favour of her if she'll pilot the Alpha Azieru for him while he follows his path and he tell his soldiers he's doing it because it's the simplest path to peace by eliminating the source of conflict (i.e. Earth). Hell, he tells the Federation he's just looking to create a new nation for Spacenoids and negotiates Axis as lebensraum in a treaty that recognizes Sweetwater as a new, independent nation and then he quite literally throws it away for his own agenda despite being the thing all previous Spacenoid rebellions have ostensibly been fighting for. He's presented throughout the movie as a suave but manipulative liar who deceives all his allies in the name of personal revenge as much as any idealism, and then the film ends with him saying that he just wanted a mother all along. Nothing about the movie tries to present Char or his plan as ethically sound.
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Aug 24, 2020 02:18
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Raxivace posted:So eventually SRW games would force us to choose between saving her or Four. ...so why does Rosamia even exist? tsob posted:What show or movie even tries to pretend it's ethical? I'm assuming you're talking about Char's Counterattack, but Char isn't trying to destroy the planet because it's the ethical choice, and isn't even trying to destroy it at all; he's trying to irradiate the environment so humanity will have no choice but to leave it because he's angry that they've continued living on the planet and are threatening to destroy the entire environment. He's clearly presented as being in the wrong throughout the movie though, and lies through his rear end to every one of his allies about his plan and motives to boot. He tells Nanai he's doing it for Newtypes, he tells Gynunei he's doing it for Spacenoids, he tells Quess he'll put aside his past loves in favour of her if she'll pilot the Alpha Azieru for him while he follows his path and he tell his soldiers he's doing it because it's the simplest path to peace by eliminating the source of conflict (i.e. Earth). Hell, he tells the Federation he's just looking to create a new nation for Spacenoids and negotiates Axis as lebensraum in a treaty that recognizes Sweetwater as a new, independent nation and then he quite literally throws it away for his own agenda despite being the thing all previous Spacenoid rebellions have ostensibly been fighting for. He's presented throughout the movie as a suave but manipulative liar who deceives all his allies in the name of personal revenge as much as any idealism, and then the film ends with him saying that he just wanted a mother all along. Nothing about the movie tries to present Char or his plan as ethically sound. That's functionally the same thing from the point of view of human beings, who are presumably the show's intended audience compared to say dogs or tardigrades. Everything else in your analysis is correct though and I agree with it--Char is fundamentally a selfish man-child with enough issues to make Bruce Wayne look normal and well adjusted. The fact that he gets as much power as he does in the UC is really an indictment of how bad things have gotten for the spacenoids if they're willing to accept his endgame.
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Aug 24, 2020 02:25
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Warmachine posted:...so why does Rosamia even exist? As someone who freshly watched Zeta, my impression of Rosmania's inclusion was to make sad commentary on how willing the EFF and Titans were to create, drug, and hypnotize child soldiers into doing their experimental dirty work. The analog to Four though is beyond me. Kamille sensing the repeat of another tragedy? Kamille wanting to this time avert what happened in the past to Four and hoping to do it with Rosmania? Except then why not have that happen with Sarah too and also why does Rosmania get Psyco Gundam THE RETURN (it's a little ham fisted at that point)
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Aug 24, 2020 02:27
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Warmachine posted:That's functionally the same thing from the point of view of human beings, who are presumably the show's intended audience compared to say dogs or tardigrades. Human beings are the show's intended audience, but environmentalism in the form of Contolism has been Char's bag since Zeta (and is mentioned a bit in 0079) so the difference is notable regardless. Char wants people to move off Earth because they are causing irreparable damage to the environment, and while he's okay with working with AEUG to use politics to achieve that goal in Zeta, he decides to use more direct force in Char's Counterattack. Char doesn't care that a huge proportion of the people on Earth will die, just so long as the planet is left alone because it can heal over time but will be unlivable for humans for millenia.
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Aug 24, 2020 02:32
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Zodack posted:Zeta is, in fact, very good Zeta, when good, can be very good, but when it's bad... okay, it's still better than Build Divers, but some of the stuff with how Zeta treats women is rough. One thing about Zeta that's good, though, is Kamille. You might not like him, but from the first episode, you know what he's about. Kamille punches out a member of the Titans for insulting him, then when he gets bailed out, he immediately starts another fight, eventually escalating to stealing a Gundam and making the MP who arrested him flee from vulcan fire. Kamille, like so many Titan hating teenagers, has a lot of anger, and not much time to spend thinking about consequences. Build Divers, by contrast, has Riku and... I've complained about Kira being a blob of nothing, but compared to Riku, he's Rodion Raskolnikov. Riku's a void of characterization, showing no real personal drives or development. I can't even call him a wet fart, because a wet fart is distinct, memorable, and even sometimes funny. Riku and his friend wassisname are placeholder text as protagonist, flat wads of nothing that somehow got the lead role in a franchise where even terrible entries usually manage to make their leads stand out a little. Heck, if we're comparing to children's shows, this year's Tomica Kizuna Gattai: Earth Granner, a terrible show where the first episode's evil plan involved making zebras run backwards, still manages to give its leads some stock personality traits. It's not hard! It's the bare minimum of effort, and Build Divers couldn't even do that. Add in dull fights, a stupid plot, and terrible pacing, you get a show that's bottom tier even compared to AGE.
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Aug 24, 2020 05:16
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tsob posted:What show or movie even tries to pretend it's ethical? I'm assuming you're talking about Char's Counterattack, but Char isn't trying to destroy the planet because it's the ethical choice, and isn't even trying to destroy it at all; he's trying to irradiate the environment so humanity will have no choice but to leave it because he's angry that they've continued living on the planet and are threatening to destroy the entire environment. He's clearly presented as being in the wrong throughout the movie though, and lies through his rear end to every one of his allies about his plan and motives to boot. He tells Nanai he's doing it for Newtypes, he tells Gynunei he's doing it for Spacenoids, he tells Quess he'll put aside his past loves in favour of her if she'll pilot the Alpha Azieru for him while he follows his path and he tell his soldiers he's doing it because it's the simplest path to peace by eliminating the source of conflict (i.e. Earth). Hell, he tells the Federation he's just looking to create a new nation for Spacenoids and negotiates Axis as lebensraum in a treaty that recognizes Sweetwater as a new, independent nation and then he quite literally throws it away for his own agenda despite being the thing all previous Spacenoid rebellions have ostensibly been fighting for. He's presented throughout the movie as a suave but manipulative liar who deceives all his allies in the name of personal revenge as much as any idealism, and then the film ends with him saying that he just wanted a mother all along. Nothing about the movie tries to present Char or his plan as ethically sound. Now I kinda want an AU where right after making the deal to get Axis and recognition of Sweetwater as independent, Char falls down a flight of stairs and breaks his neck
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Aug 24, 2020 06:24
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everythingWasBees posted:Also Magee revealing that he and Shahryar had a one-night stand is equivalent wrt characterization with the entirety of Try. Stardust Memory would be phenomenal if the dialogue was edited out. It really should've been a silent movie/extended music video type thing thing like Interstella 5555.
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Aug 24, 2020 07:19
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MizPiz posted:Stardust Memory would be phenomenal if the dialogue was edited out. It really should've been a silent movie/extended music video type thing thing like Interstella 5555. Would probably work great as an Abridged Series though
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Aug 24, 2020 08:09
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Stardust Memory is the only Gundam series I just quit. There's no redeeming value to it for me. The fact it has my favorite Gundam OP ever is just a huge cosmic joke. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvZ0BIDekmg A great OP is supposed to elevate an anime but this one jus tmakes me hate it even more because how did this great song get attached to this godawful series.
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Aug 24, 2020 08:17
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It must be a matter of perspective but I'm not able to write off stardust. It's plot is whack along with the characters, but the design and animation is top-notch, only F91 holds a candle to it.
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Aug 24, 2020 08:20
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ironically, the stardust memory manga is as good as the stardust memory ova is bad
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Aug 24, 2020 08:23
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How close is it to being done? I've been interested in it for a minute, but I don't wanna suffer for years waiting for releases.
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Aug 24, 2020 08:26
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Gaius Marius posted:How close is it to being done? I've been interested in it for a minute, but I don't wanna suffer for years waiting for releases.
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Aug 24, 2020 08:58
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That's a shame, every week there's another reason to be sad that I fell off of my Japanese acquisition. Hopefully some saints pick it up, if it's truly so good it deserves to be seen by the western fanbase
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Aug 24, 2020 09:57
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Right stuf is putting out every Gundam on Bluray but there's only been three Gundam manga released in the US over the past decade. It's hosed up.
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Aug 24, 2020 12:45
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It is a shame such a good OP is associated with so much meh, still the animation will live on many a Gundam AMV mashup.
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Aug 24, 2020 14:04
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chiasaur11 posted:Zeta, when good, can be very good, but when it's bad... okay, it's still better than Build Divers, but some of the stuff with how Zeta treats women is rough. Yeah, I enjoyed that every featured AEUG pilot other than Kamille and Quattro was a woman up until they started to talk about it. I nearly posted yesterday before the Divers talk with a "what was up with Reccoa Londe" and decided that, frankly, no explanation would be good. Terrible commentary aside (I saw a translated draft for Zeta on Twitter the other day and I of course don't know how accurate it is but Tomino's ideas about women made me roll my eyes out of my head), Emma Sheen and Fa were pretty good characters. Early Reccoa Londe too, really. It's strange but Zeta features more women and especially more women pilots than most Gundam I've seen in recent memory. I don't have the best UC track record and currently I am desperately trying to make it through ZZ and failing, so we'll see. I don't remember much of AGE, but I remember the final fight against the Farsia and "stupid, crazy idiot child" with the Spallow having a meaningful, sad moment there. Then I dropped it a few episodes into season 2.
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Aug 24, 2020 14:21
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I can and have written a post before defending Reccoa as a character. I think I know the Tomino thing you're on about though, and saw something a while ago about how he views Haman as someone who was looking for a strong man but doesn't know what a strong man is, and that she's fundamentally a weak person or something and then comparing Reccoa. I'd have to go searching for it, but yeah, it wasn't good. Thankfully, writing serial television is a team effort and the end result isn't always what the people involved intended due to interpretation.
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Aug 24, 2020 14:39
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Zodack posted:Yeah, I enjoyed that every featured AEUG pilot other than Kamille and Quattro was a woman up until they started to talk about it. I nearly posted yesterday before the Divers talk with a "what was up with Reccoa Londe" and decided that, frankly, no explanation would be good. Terrible commentary aside (I saw a translated draft for Zeta on Twitter the other day and I of course don't know how accurate it is but Tomino's ideas about women made me roll my eyes out of my head), Emma Sheen and Fa were pretty good characters. Early Reccoa Londe too, really. Reccoa is pretty easily summarized: she feels massively oppressed by having to put on a tough, bluff soldier front(she's been fighting for the last ten years, since she started as a resistance leader against Zeon in the OYW) and she really, really just wants to be a normal woman who falls in love and has a normal life. She tries to find some comfort/release from this pressure by trying to start up a relationship with Quattro, but, well, trying to start a stable relationship with Char is like trying to build a functional space shuttle with playdoh. By chance, she comes into contact with Scirocco - who is constantly portrayed as both insanely charismatic and manipulative - and he promises her everything she actually wants, so she eagerly becomes his henchman and does everything he says in a desperate attempt to find the affection and love she's been looking for. She's not a good person, but, well, people routinely and constantly make irrational, lovely decisions based on emotions and needs in real life too. Kanos fucked around with this message at 14:45 on Aug 24, 2020 |
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Aug 24, 2020 14:42
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Here's the interview I was thinking of, by the way.Rapport Deluxe Tomino Interview circa 1986 posted:In that case, from Char’s perspective, would a character like Haman be viewed the same as Katz? I got several things mixed up, and Reccoa is both (a) mentioned first and (b) compared to Emma, not Haman. His intention sounds pretty close to what Kanos just described though, and how I'd read her personally. He also characterizes Haman as "petty", rather than "weak" like I had recalled. Which I'd still say is a bad way to describe her, but there it is.
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Aug 24, 2020 14:47
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I understood the basis of Reccoa Londe's character, but I was surprised that someone who was around for them taking in Sarah the first time would be drawn in to Sriocco and, more importantly, gas an entire colony full of innocent people. Seems like there'd be a hard line there. Regarding what I had read, it's from PROJECT PROTOTYPE: Zeta Gundam which I believe is a draft of Tomino's proposal: quote:Women are fundamentally unable to become pilots because their nature is aligned with preservation. It also includes the fun bit about Melanie Hue Carbine being a Jew who has similar aspirations to the Jews controlling Hollywood so 
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Aug 24, 2020 14:59
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