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Who will you vote for in 2020? This poll is closed. |
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|---|---|---|---|
| Biden |
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425 | 18.06% |
| Trump |
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105 | 4.46% |
| whoever the Green Party runs |
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307 | 13.05% |
| GOOGLE RON PAUL |
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151 | 6.42% |
| Bernie Sanders |
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346 | 14.70% |
| Stalin |
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246 | 10.45% |
| Satan |
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300 | 12.75% |
| Nobody |
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202 | 8.58% |
| Jess Scarane |
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110 | 4.67% |
| mystery man Brian Carroll of the American Solidarity Party |
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61 | 2.59% |
| Dick Nixon |
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100 | 4.25% |
| Total: | 2089 votes | ||
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I think they're going to go back and look at a lot of the stuff the FBI was doing under Obama, tracking fascist infiltration of police departments. They'll probably do something to address cops having access to their own body cam feeds, police shootings being handled by outside departments, etc. I don't expect them to come at the problem systemically, but I expect that if Biden were President when Floyd was murdered, my federal government would have had a more meaningful response than LAW&ORDER.
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Aug 26, 2020 05:44
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negativeneil posted:President when Grey was murdered, my federal government would have had a more meaningful response than LAW&ORDER. Whoops
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Aug 26, 2020 05:46
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negativeneil posted:I think they're going to go back and look at a lot of the stuff the FBI was doing under Obama, tracking fascist infiltration of police departments. They'll probably do something to address cops having access to their own body cam feeds, police shootings being handled by outside departments, etc. I don't expect them to come at the problem systemically, but I expect that if Biden were President when Floyd was murdered, my federal government would have had a more meaningful response than LAW&ORDER. Who do you think was president when Michael Brown and Freddie Gray were killed? Every single person in a position of authority in the George Floyd case was a democrat, from the mayor to the governor. As for tracking white supremacist infiltration of police departments, here's Comey in 2016 saying they have no clue: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/fbi-white-supremacists-in-law-enforcement
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Aug 26, 2020 05:51
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joepinetree posted:I don't know what makes it "partisan," but police standing by (or joining in) as white supremacists attack people has an extremely long history in the US. Have you watched literally any video of any of the protests following the murder of George Floyd? Ever searched Proud Boys on youtube? Don't be dense. But hey, feel free to post some examples of cops standing by while nazis and not-nazis brawl in the streets since you're so concerned with specificity. I said "modern american history" so something after 1965 should suffice.
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Aug 26, 2020 05:54
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negativeneil posted:Do you not know what partisan means? In this case it's people dressed up in costumes and slogans for their respective ideologies standing off, armed with clubs and shields, bombs, caches of guns on rooftops. oh you mean like the hard hat riot?
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Aug 26, 2020 05:58
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or how about the Greensboro massacre? Or the Boston bussing riot
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Aug 26, 2020 06:08
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A lot of middle class white cishet people in this thread saying it would be better in the long run if violence got worse in this country to spur direct action. I wonder who here is most likely to be the direct recipient of violence 🤔. Asking as a lower middle class hispanic trans bi individual in a red district.
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Aug 26, 2020 06:15
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Covok posted:A lot of middle class white cishet people in this thread saying it would be better in the long run if violence got worse in this country to spur direct action. Do you have a specific example of this happening or are you making some bold assumptions about other posters' identities
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Aug 26, 2020 06:21
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negativeneil posted:Do you not know what partisan means? In this case it's people dressed up in costumes and slogans for their respective ideologies standing off, armed with clubs and shields, bombs, caches of guns on rooftops. Partisan can mean multiple things. It could mean anything from literal parties to proponents of political positions. Is cointelpro and the murder of Fred Hampton "partisan violence?" Is the Orangeburg massacre partisan violence? Jackson state killings? Move bombing?
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Aug 26, 2020 06:31
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Like did anyone consider that what you're proposing means that a lot of innocent people will have their lives ruined on the likely vain hope it will magically lead to revolution? Sure will be great when they try again to take away my human rights because I'm trans. Already removed my military rights thus locking millions out of a cheap transition and they almost made it so doctors didn't have to treat me. Wonder what the next 4 years would have in store? Sure is great having a mouthpiece increase violence against protected classes through the bullypulpit. Not like his presence made them bolder or anything. All the kids detained and dying in cages certainly understand they need to be sacrificed so that people will get mad and fight against things harder later. This argument is the same thing as electroalism, in a way. You say we have to eat a pile of poo poo to stop something worse from happening. Except all the bad poo poo from accelerational is felt immediately and disproportionately towards protected classes. And it all assumes people wouldn't try to make things better unless everything is max horrible (disproportionately for protected clases) and that this will all work out and be worth it. Somfin posted:Do you have a specific example of this happening or are you making some bold assumptions about other posters' identities Either way, your asking people, many of which have no interest in political chess, to be victims of violence. Even if you are a part of a protected class, you are looking at millions of people and helping decide that they will be victims of violence.
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Aug 26, 2020 06:37
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Covok posted:Like did anyone consider that what you're proposing means that a lot of innocent people will have their lives ruined on the likely vain hope it will magically lead to revolution? Who is doing these things?
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Aug 26, 2020 06:38
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joepinetree posted:Who is doing these things? i might have mixed things in with another thread. I was just reading a bunch of people bragging they weren't going to vote and were convincing friends not to as well. And getting excited over bad news. That might have been c-spam's election thread. I don't see the posts here now. I had to close the site and leave before responding.
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Aug 26, 2020 06:45
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Thanks, this one is pretty good and I didn't know about it at all. The Greensboro Massacre I knew about (although I had recalled in happening towards the beginning of the 70s for some reason). I'm not trying to move the goal posts, but if the Hard Hat Riot was a monthly occurrence for a few years in the 70s, you'd have a good argument. Also the scale of the current violence is much larger and widespread across the country. Thanks for the history lesson though, I had no loving idea. joepinetree posted:Who do you think was president when Michael Brown and Freddie Gray were killed? Every single person in a position of authority in the George Floyd case was a democrat, from the mayor to the governor. Do you think the response to Floyd is no different than the response to Brown or Gray? Within a month of Floyd's death the House passed a bill that banned chokeholds, banned selling military equipment to police departments, and made it so officers involved in killings like this could be held personally liable. Does that go far enough? Nope. It's not nothing, either. I think Pelosi is absolute garbage at seizing a national moment, but I don't think she's intentionally garbage because she's a secret racist.
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Aug 26, 2020 06:45
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Covok posted:Like did anyone consider that what you're proposing means that a lot of innocent people will have their lives ruined on the likely vain hope it will magically lead to revolution? the cops are lighting up peaceful protestors who aren't rioting, pretty regularly. they did this before Trump during Obama's years, they will continue to do this after Trump if Biden is elected. I get the pain, and I get the fear, but like, are we going to tell people not to peacefully protest either? negativeneil posted:Do you think the response to Floyd is no different than the response to Brown or Gray? Within a month of Floyd's death the House passed a bill that banned chokeholds, banned selling military equipment to police departments, and made it so officers involved in killings like this could be held personally liable. Does that go far enough? Nope. It's not nothing, either. I think Pelosi is absolute garbage at seizing a national moment, but I don't think she's intentionally garbage because she's a secret racist. all of this noise and "movement", yet George Floyd was still murdered. Famethrowa fucked around with this message at 06:50 on Aug 26, 2020 |
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Aug 26, 2020 06:48
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Covok posted:i might have mixed things in with another thread. I was just reading a bunch of people bragging they weren't going to vote and were convincing friends not to as well. And getting excited over bad news. If you're going to level accusations at posters including accusing them of being white, cis, hetero and wealthy, let alone ignoring the impact of their views on other groups, it is probably worth making sure you can back that up with specific evidence that has been volunteered in the thread.
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Aug 26, 2020 06:49
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negativeneil posted:Because progress doesn't happen overnight and I thought you were acutely aware of that. I'm struggling to find a single Biden plank that isnt more conservative than Clinton in 16 or even Obama in 08. E: I'll look at the Bill Clinton platforms, Dukakis, and maybe Mondale later, but my sneaking suspicion is that Biden has the most conservative platform in loving memory Shageletic fucked around with this message at 06:55 on Aug 26, 2020 |
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Aug 26, 2020 06:50
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Famethrowa posted:the cops are lighting up peaceful protestors who aren't rioting, pretty regularly. they did this before Trump during Obama's years, they will continue to do this after Trump if Biden is elected. I want more protest but trying to force it by letting things get worse is not good. Bishyaler posted:The back and forth between which party is more harmful in office is overshadowed by the reality that both are doing the bidding of corporate lobbyists and therefore incapable of affecting positive change. Neither party can get their people into office without lots and lots of legalized bribes and they can never be persuaded to dismantle this system willingly. The money (and time) is also against you if you try to run a grass roots campaign to subvert them at the local level. We have government that is little more than middle management for wealthy interests and the only way to change that is through massive direct action, and massive direct action takes a lot of frustrated people with nothing left to lose. We have that now since neither party seems to be troubled by tens of millions of evictions and record levels of unemployment. If removing or replacing the government is your goal, and there is no reason it shouldn't be, then Biden winning would be a very bad thing. The misguided hope for a less cruel system would relieve the frustration you need for direct action and it would cause liberals to defend the system even more fervently than they do now. ZenMasterBullshit posted:But largely he's not preferable, he'll inact a lot of the same lovely ideas in the name of austerity. Sure they'll pay a little nod to the cultural issues but they're not going to do anything to fix any issues any repressed or poor group in america faces. Zerilan posted:Honestly I think both probable outcomes of the election destroys the Democratic party, just that one of the options makes it more likely that it realigns even further right instead of anywhere to the left when it does. the_steve posted:My issue with this is that every election ever it's this same thing: Like saying stuff like this ignores how much worse things get if the Republicans retain power.
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Aug 26, 2020 06:54
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Covok posted:i might have mixed things in with another thread. I was just reading a bunch of people bragging they weren't going to vote and were convincing friends not to as well. And getting excited over bad news. No that was happening here too. Folks telling me that Trump II will be indistinguishable from Biden I and the only way to change the world is to kill the Democratic Party so it can be reborn. Oh and that arguments for "harm reduction" are stupid. joepinetree posted:Partisan can mean multiple things. It could mean anything from literal parties to proponents of political positions. You seemed to be confused as to why I would call neonazis beating and throwing bombs at antiracists while police stand by and do nothing an example of partisan violence. What's confusing about that statement? It kinda just seems like you're being pedantic and annoying on purpose because you just came up with like a whole range of poo poo in which my example definitely fits.
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Aug 26, 2020 07:04
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negativeneil posted:No that was happening here too. Folks telling me that Trump II will be indistinguishable from Biden I and the only way to change the world is to kill the Democratic Party so it can be reborn. Oh and that arguments for "harm reduction" are stupid. it is useful to establish the definitions in question, because frequently people as unaware of the history of civil rights in this country as yourself attempt to move the goalposts once the reality of american history is placed before them the cops standing by and watching is honestly a step up, compared to the days when the FBI was actively attempting to blackmail MLK into silence before being handed the job 'hey find out who killed him, and be sure the answer doesn't implicate anyone important."
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Aug 26, 2020 07:08
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Shageletic posted:I'm struggling to find a single Biden plank that isnt more conservative than Clinton in 16 or even Obama in 08. kinda cherry picking my argument here. I'm not saying Biden represents progress, I'm saying there is a lot of progress than can happen under Biden in the form of moving the party left. Actually reforming the Democratic Party will take a generation at least. Like do you think the GOP became fascist overnight? This poo poo has been building steadily for decades. Focusing everything on the Presidency is ignoring almost every possible avenue to reforming our political system.
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Aug 26, 2020 07:10
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I'm just baffled by the optimism amidst the DNC hosting two Republicans (one a prolife monster the other a war criminal) at their convention. How do we move the party left? Greyjoy has mentioned local party chair elections, which is a start, but an unfathomably slow start considering the stakes. We don't have 70 years to stop this rightward shift.
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Aug 26, 2020 07:19
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negativeneil posted:No that was happening here too. Folks telling me that Trump II will be indistinguishable from Biden I and the only way to change the world is to kill the Democratic Party so it can be reborn. Oh and that arguments for "harm reduction" are stupid. I am confused because calling white supremacist violence or political violence, things of which there are literally dozens of examples in recent American history, "partisan violence" seems to imply that it is about political parties, democrats versus republicans, and not, you know, white supremacy and political violence. You talked about unprecedented partisan violence. There were two options here: either you were completely ignorant of American history, or you had some hyperspecific definition that made what is happening now completely different from what came before. Rather than assume your ignorance, i preferred to ask a question. It is weird to me that you seem offended that I did.
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Aug 26, 2020 07:23
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:it is useful to establish the definitions in question, because frequently people as unaware of the history of civil rights in this country as yourself attempt to move the goalposts once the reality of american history is placed before them You're right, I'm more ignorant of the history of civil rights in this country than I should be. I still don't think this refutes my argument of "poo poo in 2020 is really loving bad and Trump specifically encourages partisan violence while Biden does not. We should hope for Biden over Trump" joepinetree posted:I am confused because calling white supremacist violence or political violence, things of which there are literally dozens of examples in recent American history, "partisan violence" seems to imply that it is about political parties, democrats versus republicans, and not, you know, white supremacy and political violence. Ok fair, I re-read your original post and I am overreacting. My calling it partisan violence was an attempt to make it clear that we have opposing groups that are planning and carrying out street brawls and its getting worse. The only thing I can think of as a good comparison is when the KKK was in full swing and even that was pretty one-sided. Personally I'd like to get off this ride and I haven't heard Biden encourage his supporters to beat up Republicans ever, so I think he represents a better chance that we can slow some of this poo poo down a bit. negativeneil fucked around with this message at 07:35 on Aug 26, 2020 |
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Aug 26, 2020 07:23
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negativeneil posted:You're right, I'm more ignorant of the history of civil rights in this country than I should be. I still don't think this refutes my argument of "poo poo in 2020 is really loving bad and Trump specifically encourages partisan violence while Biden does not. unless an undercover cop breaks a window, in which case Biden calls for the violent anarchist protesters to face the full force of the law, so that his vice president can use them to fight fires with, yes.
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Aug 26, 2020 07:28
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negativeneil posted:You're right, I'm more ignorant of the history of civil rights in this country than I should be. I still don't think this refutes my argument of "poo poo in 2020 is really loving bad and Trump specifically encourages partisan violence while Biden does not. We should hope for Biden over Trump" This seems a better fit for a yard sign on etsy than a serious thought in an adults head.
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Aug 26, 2020 07:31
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Literal neo-nazis are voting for Biden because they believe he will more effectively maim and murder minorities and leftists than Trump
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Aug 26, 2020 07:31
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Are there any historical examples of voting out a fascist and replacing them with a slightly more tasteful imperialist actually weakening the street violence performed by the supporters of the fascist? I find the suggestion that electing biden will change anything regarding that to be little more than wishful thinking.
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Aug 26, 2020 07:34
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Covok posted:Like saying stuff like this ignores how much worse things get if the Republicans retain power. I'm not ignoring a goddamn thing. I'm pointing out that Joe "Was literally banned from Senate negotiations between parties because he kept Kramering into the room and demanding Republicans be given everything they want with no questions asked" Biden does not represent a meaningful improvement over Trump, and based off of everything I have seen and heard, the biggest difference would be Biden's implicit support compared to Trump's explicit support of the same things. If you think Biden is going to usher in meaningful change and substantially unfuck terrible situations that he himself laid the groundwork for in the first place, then by all means, support him with everything you've got, but I don't see how unconditionally giving him everything he wants is going to encourage him to do anything that actually benefits people. negativeneil posted:You're right, I'm more ignorant of the history of civil rights in this country than I should be. I still don't think this refutes my argument of "poo poo in 2020 is really loving bad and Trump specifically encourages partisan violence while Biden does not. We should hope for Biden over Trump" Biden wants to increase funding to police and has expressed approval towards arresting protestors. The same police who continue to instigate riots, repeatedly violate civil rights, and receive literally no official consequences. He may not be telling cops to go ahead and slam some heads against the hood of the cop car during an arrest, but he's still offering them more money to keep on keeping on.
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Aug 26, 2020 07:37
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Covok posted:I want more protest but trying to force it by letting things get worse is not good. If you ever want to be free of "the government serves at the pleasure of the rich", it has to get worse. If things get better, you will never have change. Capitalism can't be reformed, we have been trying for 200 years. The New Deal was the last time the left actually got some real reforms put in place and the rich have been tearing that apart piece by piece for the last century. Now the rich own the media and propagandize the populace every hour of every day. The left has no major media. We have no party. These protests have started to make progress but the establishment is working on criminalizing those too. If you think the Democrats will be better, just remember that Obama ordered the FBI to take down Occupy Wall St and they were prepared to do it with sniper fire if needed. That's how little they give a poo poo about your lives.
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Aug 26, 2020 07:39
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Literal neo-nazis are voting for Biden because they believe he will more effectively maim and murder minorities and leftists than Trump Good job taking what Richard Spencer says at face value.
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Aug 26, 2020 07:40
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the_steve posted:Biden wants to increase funding to police and has expressed approval towards arresting protestors. Good point, though I think the most likely explanation here is that Biden is an idiot and advised by idiots who think they can neutralize the last political weapon Trump has by jumping on the Cops Are Heroes bandwagon. He's doing that thing where he thinks we can make cops better by making the job of being a police officer more highly coveted and maybe one day we won't have departments comprised of 90% high school jocks but maybe something more like 50%. It's tone deaf and bad policy but I don't read it as malicious. In general I assume stupidity in Biden before malice.
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Aug 26, 2020 07:47
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negativeneil posted:Good job taking what Richard Spencer says at face value. why so upset about Biden's strategy working? the whole purpose of the DNC was to reach out to republicans who feel Trump promised them things that he did not deliver on. Ricky One-Punch is exactly the demo they were trying to reach: conservative, suburban, moneyed, focused on politics, turned off by left-wing politics, and susceptible to rhetoric about going back to the way things used to be. there is a reason that Gingrich's consigliere in Ohio got to speak for longer at Joe Biden's victory party than he got to in all the 2016 debates put together. the democratic party wants the votes of embarrassed fascists a hell of a lot more than it wants yours. this is what the side you want to win winning looks like.
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Aug 26, 2020 07:49
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negativeneil posted:It's tone deaf and bad policy but I don't read it as malicious. In general I assume stupidity in Biden before malice. if we're being consequentialists here, how is that relevant? Do you think, "Surely, this time, Biden and his handlers will figure it out. *goes to kick the football*"
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Aug 26, 2020 07:50
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negativeneil posted:Good job taking what Richard Spencer says at face value. Is there a list of which conservatives we should take voting for Biden at face value, and which we should believe are trolling and would never vote for Biden (paragon of not-conservatism)?
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Aug 26, 2020 07:50
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negativeneil posted:kinda cherry picking my argument here. I'm not saying Biden represents progress, I'm saying there is a lot of progress than can happen under Biden in the form of moving the party left. Actually reforming the Democratic Party will take a generation at least. Like do you think the GOP became fascist overnight? This poo poo has been building steadily for decades. Focusing everything on the Presidency is ignoring almost every possible avenue to reforming our political system. There is one area where the presidency has almost exclusive powers that make it the area to focus on: foreign policy. If we think about violence and death, nothing that is happening within the US comes close what the US has done internationally. And if we think about the deadliest and most brutal cases of violence against civilians in the past 50 years there are a number of events we might discuss. We might discuss the Vietnam war, the bombing of Cambodia, and the intentional targeting of civilians. Or we might discuss the American sponsored death squads in Central America in the 80s. Or we might think of the Iraq war and the hundreds of thousands of civilians killed and a region destabilized. Or the coup in Honduras in 1989 that made it the deadliest place on earth afterwards. Or transforming Libya in an open air slave market. And funny thing, the engineers of every single one of these things is with Biden now. Henry Kissinger provided information to the Nixon campaign to sabotage Vietnam peace talks, promoted the bombing of Cambodia, helped organize the coup in Chile, and when a coup in Argentina happened, he told the Junta to do what "needs to be done" quickly because the coming administration (after Ford lost) may not be ok with mass torture. Colin Powell helped cover up the My Lai massacre, helped cover up the Iran Contra scandal, and lied to get the Iraq war going. John Negroponte directly collaborated and instructed death squads based in Honduras and helped provide cover for the Contras. They are all with Biden. As are the engineers of Libya and Honduras. And since none of them have repented and all of them are in close contact with the Biden campaign, it is pretty easy to imagine why. So this whole "well, you must not care about violence" thing is a bit tiring. It is very weird to suggest that caring about the fact that the biggest monsters in recent American history are all on team Biden is actually not caring about violence. joepinetree fucked around with this message at 07:56 on Aug 26, 2020 |
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Aug 26, 2020 07:54
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Who the gently caress would take Colin Powell at face value?
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Aug 26, 2020 08:02
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I don't know but I do know that Biden voted for the Iraq war because he didn't take Powell at face value.
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Aug 26, 2020 08:13
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Somfin posted:If you're going to level accusations at posters including accusing them of being white, cis, hetero and wealthy, let alone ignoring the impact of their views on other groups, it is probably worth making sure you can back that up with specific evidence that has been volunteered in the thread. They never used any of those words? Famethrowa posted:I'm just baffled by the optimism amidst the DNC hosting two Republicans (one a prolife monster the other a war criminal) at their convention. The young and very left members of congress that probably everyone is familiar with (as well as a ton of delegates, state-level elected officials, and local elected officials) are the results of primarily just the last ~3.5 years of people organizing. It's not instant, nor probably fast enough, but it's not even in the same ballpark as 70 years. joepinetree posted:I am confused because calling white supremacist violence or political violence, things of which there are literally dozens of examples in recent American history, "partisan violence" seems to imply that it is about political parties, democrats versus republicans, and not, you know, white supremacy and political violence. It's definitely a new thing in terms of the last couple decades and I don't think it's incorrect to see it as an escalation. Also it's been an escalation on both sides. No one has hard numbers on it afaik, but membership in left-leaning militias and other gun groups is astronomically increased compared to 5 or 10 years ago. Similarly the number of people who'd identify as anti-fascists or as some manner of 'peaceful but not passive protester' (a better term for it i'm sure exists, but escapes me) I'm sure is similarly increased. The US has certainly always had militia groups and other partisany groups (eg the klan, border militias. the anti-klan groups that sprang up), but those seem to generally come in waves of activity whenever social issues become prominent (eg the 20s-30s, again during the civil rights era and throughout the anti-war era). The infiltration of the weather underground for the left, and waco/ruby ridge/OKC/etc for the right, I think marked the end of an era for a bunch of domestic violent ideologies. Obviously they never fully went away, but they largely reverted into the american baseline of using local and federal law enforcement as the primary means of destroying and oppressing non-white-christian lives. Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 08:57 on Aug 26, 2020 |
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Aug 26, 2020 08:40
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I'm pessimistic about a leftist seizure of congress; they have been permitted to take seats because they are small, inconsequential, outvoted. The moment leftist politicians make up even 1/4th of the democrats, expect many more Obama endorsements and Warren turncoats.
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Aug 26, 2020 08:49
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Neurolimal posted:I'm pessimistic about a leftist seizure of congress; they have been permitted to take seats because they are small, inconsequential, outvoted. The moment leftist politicians make up even 1/4th of the democrats, expect many more Obama endorsements and Warren turncoats. my  fun to ponder idea is that the dems shift to the right and pick up a bunch of the 90s style republican core and the young non-nazi right horseshoes itself over to the populist far left in some kind of weird bernie-yang hybrid mold.obviously i will save you time from replying to say that this is stupid by saying myself that this is stupid and exceedingly improbable
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Aug 26, 2020 09:00
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