(Thread IKs:
fart simpson)
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It's Bashar The Lion
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Aug 26, 2020 19:45
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Ferrinus posted:principled marxist-leninists, obviously to quote a friend of mine: "maoism worked because regular people who believed all kinds of hosed up insane things about the curative power of carrots and the placenta plus they were 100% regular middle of the road fellas, not really into politics, those guys were like "you know what, that's a good point. we SHOULD kill our landlords. no i don't need a gun. i'll do it with a shovel" and then they really did"
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Aug 26, 2020 19:48
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sincx has issued a correction as of 05:31 on Mar 23, 2021 |
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Aug 26, 2020 20:38
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That kind of strange bedfellows dynamic has been going on since the Cold War, if not earlier. European imperialists were open to the idea of supporting the Taiping initially (who were relatively liberal on some social customs). They were also friendly to the Self-Strengthening movement. I'm sure you can dig up all sorts of instances where colonizers backed liberal factions everywhere from the Ottomans to Africa
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Aug 26, 2020 21:58
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Maximo Roboto posted:That kind of strange bedfellows dynamic has been going on since the Cold War, if not earlier. European imperialists were open to the idea of supporting the Taiping initially (who were relatively liberal on some social customs). They were also friendly to the Self-Strengthening movement. I'm sure you can dig up all sorts of instances where colonizers backed liberal factions everywhere from the Ottomans to Africa I think it's a case where any strongly protective state (venezuela today, imperial china in the 19th century) will find its opposition in either liberals or fascists and the west is happy to back either because liberal capitalism means they can pillage openly and strong man fascists means they can pillage via special privilege, either way they can also put 'their guy' in power and secure their own interests which were not represented in the previous protective government
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Aug 26, 2020 23:27
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I can't really think of the USA backing any foreign movement on ideological terms like that, it's always on racial politics (siding with france on the destruction of the new haitian state) or imperial politics (destroying the middle east and north africa) or just direct capitalist interests (destroying venezuela). Any support for liberals or rebels is subject to those terms... Castro and Ho Chi Minh both got turned down by USA b/c they didn't fall in line with racial, imperial or capitalist interest
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Aug 26, 2020 23:33
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je1 healthcare posted:The US government also doesn't impose a one-child restriction on african-americans, and promotes affirmative action, therefore how can they be systematically racist? But since that's obviously not the case I'm comfortable dismissing you as moron
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Aug 27, 2020 00:04
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gotta love how uighurs exemption to one child policy and uighur governors get pulled out like a silver bullet each and every time to say hey china doesn't look to be committing genocide guys they actualy like bootlicking muslims just not ones practicing religion too hardquote:But one journalist who had a very different reaction to an official tour was Albanian-Canadian freelance Olsi Jazexhi. In August 2019, he flew to Xinjiang for an eight-day tour with another 19 journalists from 16 countries.He had always vocally opposed the United States, and when he approached the Chinese embassy in Tirana, he only had one aim in mind. “I wanted to write a good piece on China,” he admitted, “I wanted to prove to the world that the Americans, like they lied about us in the Balkans, they are lying about the Chinese as well.” some people see thru the song and dance, others just see dancing uighurs therefore cultural genocide must not be happening. kinda like the north korea story but china is good at blowing cash on PR and keeping info within the state secure so you guys can continue to say its not so bad with confidence that evidence will never come to light. always worse poo poo happening elsewhere amirite
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Aug 27, 2020 03:01
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Kill All Cops posted:gotta love how uighurs exemption to one child policy and uighur governors get pulled out like a silver bullet each and every time to say hey china doesn't look to be committing genocide guys they actualy like bootlicking muslims just not ones practicing religion too hard hmm that’s real interesting where’s that article from?
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Aug 27, 2020 03:53
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Antonymous posted:I think it's a case where any strongly protective state (venezuela today, imperial china in the 19th century) will find its opposition in either liberals or fascists and the west is happy to back either because liberal capitalism means they can pillage openly and strong man fascists means they can pillage via special privilege, either way they can also put 'their guy' in power and secure their own interests which were not represented in the previous protective government If you think about it, the sealed train to Finland Station was the major time when European imperialist powers backed socialists really strongly in such a way
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Aug 27, 2020 04:04
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VC1THdpRCPI&t=1345s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwYNOx7KG0s&t=70s
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Aug 27, 2020 04:55
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Maximo Roboto posted:If you think about it, the sealed train to Finland Station was the major time when European imperialist powers backed socialists really strongly in such a way I like Zizek's take that Lenin at that time was an agent for germany, albeit unwittingly
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Aug 27, 2020 06:38
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Antonymous posted:I like Zizek's take that Lenin at that time was an agent for germany, albeit unwittingly this is a novel take? I always had the impression that the Germans knowingly and deliberately sent Lenin back to Russia with the hopes that he'd trigger some poo poo that'd help them win the war in the east.
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Aug 27, 2020 07:04
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And it worked. The Soviet government ended the war and gave major consession to Germany.
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Aug 27, 2020 07:53
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stephenthinkpad posted:And it worked. The Soviet government ended the war and gave major consession to Germany. ...on the basis of the writings of a german philosopher. my god i think we've cracked this
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Aug 27, 2020 08:14
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Ferrinus posted:...on the basis of the writings of a german philosopher. my god i think we've cracked this To be clear, I don't think that there was some kind of conspiracy where Lenin's only reason to stir the revolution was because he was instructed to by Germany, I was just saying that I thought it was commonly accepted among people familiar with these events that the Germans knew what they were doing when they let him go back to Russia.
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Aug 27, 2020 08:22
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https://twitter.com/AskAKorean/status/1298719890291822594?p=v ah yes conservatives using communist defectors to defend fascism this extremely recent phenomenon that was completely unheard of in the united states until trump did it a few minutes ago
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Aug 27, 2020 09:10
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gradenko_2000 posted:To be clear, I don't think that there was some kind of conspiracy where Lenin's only reason to stir the revolution was because he was instructed to by Germany, I was just saying that I thought it was commonly accepted among people familiar with these events that the Germans knew what they were doing when they let him go back to Russia. I remember it's something like Lenin's historical role in early 1917 was to defeat his own country as an agent of german imperialism... just zizek embracing what detractors might have said of Lenin in 1917 as real and also good
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Aug 27, 2020 09:29
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In the short term, sure. In the long term, the establishment of the USSR was probably not what you'd call a stunning victory for German imperialism  Especially since the German empire itself imploded a year later, anyway.
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Aug 27, 2020 09:53
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Doesn't that take kinda ignore the whole premise of socialism being internationalist over nationalist?
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Aug 27, 2020 10:38
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Professorjuggalo posted:also China brought a fuckton of people out of poverty without resorting to stealing a continent and subjugating and brutalizing 3 other continents, that fact alone makes the Chinese country* better than even the Scandinavian countries East Turkestan and Tibet are very large countries which were stolen. Their inhabitants were persecuted and continue to be persecuted. China would also love to steal Taiwan, parts of India, and the South China Sea. China did bring a ton of people out of poverty and does provide stability for billions of people, but it is also an imperialist empire. It's not clear at all that other forms of government wouldn't have brought them out of poverty given that poverty is not the historical average for China.
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Aug 27, 2020 12:08
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NaanViolence posted:East Turkestan and Tibet are very large countries which were stolen. Their inhabitants were persecuted and continue to be persecuted. China would also love to steal Taiwan, parts of India, and the South China Sea. India just stole Kashmir in a worse way than xinjiang not even 10 months ago so I don’t think using an even worse and unstable empire is a good comparison. Why cant China evolve like Taiwan did in the past 40 years if were gonna use Taiwan in the first place The other futures argument is good too but you could easily flip it around, especially if you wanna contrast it to other central asian nations (of course you can say it’s better for a people to implode themselves on their own merits but that’s a dark position to take) South China Sea is definitely bad but what is there to do? China can point its finger at every other shipping lane on earth being controlled by western forces Professorjuggalo has issued a correction as of 12:21 on Aug 27, 2020 |
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Aug 27, 2020 12:16
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The comparison to India is also a salient one because it gained nominal independence at roughly the same time as the PRC, also occupies its own regional landmass, has a similar population, but took on a very different form of government and economy, and I think we can say that the divergence in quite stark.
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Aug 27, 2020 12:20
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Of course China can evolve and hopefully will, otherwise they'll be totally hosed by our dying planet. Hopefully what they evolve into is communism instead of capitalism. The difference is that Taiwan didn't conquer other peoples before or after they evolved.
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Aug 27, 2020 12:21
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China moving beyond state capitalism is a matter of life and death for the whole world. If every Chinese citizen were to succeed in acquiring the materialistic Western middle class lifestyle that Hollywood propaganda has indoctrinated them to be thirsty for then we would need an entire extra Earth's worth of resources.
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Aug 27, 2020 12:24
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NaanViolence posted:Of course China can evolve and hopefully will, otherwise they'll be totally hosed by our dying planet. Hopefully what they evolve into is communism instead of capitalism. i think theres some indigenous people not to mention the han immigrants from before nationalist china escaped there that might disagree with you on that point
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Aug 27, 2020 12:29
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NaanViolence posted:China moving beyond state capitalism is a matter of life and death for the whole world. If every Chinese citizen were to succeed in acquiring the materialistic Western middle class lifestyle that Hollywood propaganda has indoctrinated them to be thirsty for then we would need an entire extra Earth's worth of resources. I think America moving beyond capitalism is more important? did China hop in a time machine and create Hollywood propaganda (or the post WW2 capitalism that already had the world locked into a death spiral)? did China force the west to exploit its cheap labour giving the country an avenue for its rise to power? edit: I’m sure in 20 years when Africa is finally modernizing I’m going to hear ‘we can’t let Africans achieve western lifestyle or it’ll end the world!!’. maybe western lifestyle should have cut back or shared before the exploited world wanted a piece themselves Professorjuggalo has issued a correction as of 12:36 on Aug 27, 2020 |
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Aug 27, 2020 12:32
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I guess I'll address this dumb whataboutism. It's a matter of population. China has always been big and then Mao's dumb rear end encouraged Chinese to have way too many kids until it became necessary to implement the one-child policy. America has always been an incredibly lovely polluter and needs to evolve as well but we have less than 25% of the population. BTW despite Mao's previous fuckups the one-child policy is a much better environmental policy than any Western nation has ever seriously considered. I don't think China gets enough credit for that. NaanViolence has issued a correction as of 12:44 on Aug 27, 2020 |
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Aug 27, 2020 12:40
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NaanViolence posted:I guess I'll address this dumb whataboutism. so you support the child control policies in xinjiang?!?!! glad you cleared up these whataboutisms before you slid into racist maluthism poo poo I was almost gonna contrast that post to Africa and India again! edit: this is a troll post Professorjuggalo has issued a correction as of 12:49 on Aug 27, 2020 |
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Aug 27, 2020 12:41
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NaanViolence posted:China moving beyond state capitalism is a matter of life and death for the whole world. If every Chinese citizen were to succeed in acquiring the materialistic Western middle class lifestyle that Hollywood propaganda has indoctrinated them to be thirsty for then we would need an entire extra Earth's worth of resources. I think the Westerners who are already in the materialistic, Western middle-class lifestyle are a somewhat more imminent problem The thing that would rebalance China's trade deficit with the West, which is what would presumably defuse some of the antagonistic tensions with the US, would require increasing wages to allow for the average Chinese worker to be paid at a level closer to the value of their output. Of course, rebalancing this sort of domestic inequality and reducing the role of exports as a driver of growth by allowing locals to take a greater role in consuming China's output would trigger other tensions besides.
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Aug 27, 2020 12:42
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Yeah it's morally hypocritical to tell massive third world nations that their people can't all have cars if you yourself own a car. That doesn't change the fact that human civilization will collapse much more quickly than it already is if they all get cars. I voluntarily gave up owning a vehicle and I'm known for giving the Westerners I know IRL tons of poo poo for buying cars as well. Americans are so loving indoctrinated into materialism that it almost makes me want to be a TWM.
NaanViolence has issued a correction as of 12:47 on Aug 27, 2020 |
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Aug 27, 2020 12:45
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Professorjuggalo posted:so you support the child control policies in xinjiang?!?!! glad you cleared up these whataboutisms before you slid into racist maluthism poo poo 
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Aug 27, 2020 12:46
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NaanViolence posted:Yeah it's morally hypocritical to tell massive third world nations that their people can't all have cars if you yourself own a car. That doesn't change the fact that human civilization will collapse much more quickly than it already is if they all get cars. I think we're not really at significant disagreement here, but the point is that instead of worrying about the people who don't have cars yet from getting cars (and I suppose that's germane if only because this is the China thread and not the USA thread), it's more relevant to point to all the people who already have all the cars in the first place. NaanViolence posted:it almost makes me want to be a TWM. It's actually really easy when you're already in the third world. Just need the Maoism part!
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Aug 27, 2020 12:51
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the issue with positing the greater need for westerners to reform their ways is that in my cynical moments i do not think we will give anything up voluntarily, personal lifestyle changes won’t happen en masse, and it’ll take total collapse or the subjugation of amerikkka by the JDPON to force people to not drive around in SUVs and eat beef for 3 meals a day
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Aug 27, 2020 13:26
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do you suppose there are chinese expat forums where they get mad about how fat and backwards we stupid occidentals are and that we all piss in the street because they saw a homeless guy do it once
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Aug 27, 2020 13:32
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NaanViolence posted:East Turkestan and Tibet are very large countries which were stolen. Their inhabitants were persecuted and continue to be persecuted. China would also love to steal Taiwan, parts of India, and the South China Sea. So was Sikkim， Bhutan, Goa, none of these kingdom previously belong to any former pre-Westphalian empires. The Chinese just better at annexing and unifying bordering kingdoms than the Indians. There are tons of people deserve their own nation states. Who is fighting for the Kurds? Do you know India still has active Maoist guerilla in south eastern "tribal" hills? I am not talking about regions that bordering Pakistan and China. India is just so bad at governing all of its poor regions no news agency bother to cover the Nexalite belt. Also India is not fighting the Game of Throne with the US.
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Aug 27, 2020 13:39
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NaanViolence posted:China moving beyond state capitalism is a matter of life and death for the whole world. If every Chinese citizen were to succeed in acquiring the materialistic Western middle class lifestyle that Hollywood propaganda has indoctrinated them to be thirsty for then we would need an entire extra Earth's worth of resources. That's your argument for preventing the Chinese from getting their wealth? no you should argue for bringing down the current resource consumption per capita of America and Canada to the world level! stephenthinkpad has issued a correction as of 15:27 on Aug 27, 2020 |
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Aug 27, 2020 13:48
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THS posted:the issue with positing the greater need for westerners to reform their ways is that in my cynical moments i do not think we will give anything up voluntarily, personal lifestyle changes won’t happen en masse, and it’ll take total collapse or the subjugation of amerikkka by the JDPON to force people to not drive around in SUVs and eat beef for 3 meals a day This is some real classist bullshit, you're blaming the wrong people. The American working class doesn't drive because they're rich motherfuckers, they drive because they have to. Huge parts of the country have, by design, next to no mass transit infrastructure. Look at Michigan. Detroit has.... the people mover? Some cities have a couple buses that wont take you to your job, let alone all the other places you have to go to get by in a poorly planned city, and that's basically it. Most have absolutely nothing at all. The reason Michigan is like that is pretty obvious, the auto industry has more control over that state than any number of people living there ever could. If your answer to the car problem is "well they gotta just stop driving and if they don't it's because they're not willing to make "voluntary, personal lifestyle changes", then it's not an answer for the same reason letting Chinese industry burn and everyone just go and be peasants isn't an answer. Go after General Motors, etc, not their victims. No solution is going to work that doesn't target them.
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Aug 27, 2020 13:52
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BrainDance posted:This is some real classist bullshit, you're blaming the wrong people. The American working class doesn't drive because they're rich motherfuckers, they drive because they have to. Huge parts of the country have, by design, next to no mass transit infrastructure. chill. i’m well aware, what i meant was that these lifestyle changes won’t come from everyone being guilted into getting a prius, zeroscaping their yards, and only eating lentils. change has to be systematic and targeted at the powerful institutions responsible which define our material reality. to fundamentally alter daily life to be both sustainable and more fulfilling. it’d be a giant project, like a green new deal except Communistic. it would require a revolution. i don’t think it can be done under capitalism and under the current constitution i’m just being negative on the possibility of the United States getting there through some voluntary process where we actually get out ahead of the problem with ambitious change and it actually gets implemented, instead of it being jerry rigged after famine, droughts, and collapse. and only after we’ve exhausted every attempt to cling onto an unsustainable system in resource wars, nuclear blackmail, and throwing aircraft carriers at weaker nations
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Aug 27, 2020 14:05
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Some Guy TT posted:do you suppose there are chinese expat forums where they get mad about how fat and backwards we stupid occidentals are and that we all piss in the street because they saw a homeless guy do it once There's definitely Taiwanese ones. It's called Line group chat.
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Aug 27, 2020 14:59
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