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fart simpson)
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NaanViolence posted:I guess I'll address this dumb whataboutism. It's okay for the white men to industrialize first and thus pollute the world, but now we must prevent the rest of the non-white world to do it!
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Aug 27, 2020 15:24
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stephenthinkpad posted:It's okay for the white men to industrialize first and thus pollute the world, but now we must prevent the rest of the non-white world to do it! Uninterrupted's alt spotted. Do not engage.
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Aug 27, 2020 15:34
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Ferdinand the Bull posted:Uninterrupted's alt spotted. Do not engage. not everyone reacting in disgust to orientalist propaganda about how we need to kill the chinese because they’ll turn into sentient gray goo and consume Nobel White Resources is me, dude
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Aug 27, 2020 15:58
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uninterrupted posted:not everyone reacting in disgust to orientalist propaganda about how we need to kill the chinese because they’ll turn into sentient gray goo and consume Nobel White Resources is me, dude come on nobody wants to kill them, just to smash the country with enough crippling sanctions that are high crimes in itself that they do something to actually warrant a hot war
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Aug 27, 2020 16:03
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Professorjuggalo posted:come on nobody wants to kill them, just to smash the country with enough crippling sanctions that are high crimes in itself that they do something to actually warrant a hot war This is objectively true.
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Aug 27, 2020 16:31
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NaanViolence posted:The difference is that Taiwan didn't conquer other peoples before or after they evolved. Well yeah as long as you conveniently ignore the forty year ethnic dictatorship that the government was founded upon stephenthinkpad posted:So was Sikkim， Bhutan, Goa, none of these kingdom previously belong to any former pre-Westphalian empires. The Chinese just better at annexing and unifying bordering kingdoms than the Indians. There are tons of people deserve their own nation states. Who is fighting for the Kurds? A lot of that has to do with "India" as a unified national entity being a relatively recent concept in comparison to China. The centuries of cultural assimilation and economic integration that occured in China simply haven't occured in India yet (if this process occurs at all)
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Aug 27, 2020 17:05
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i like it when people loudly worry about chinese pollution, as though their carbon production per capita were not lower than hours and as if their government weren't taking much more drastic steps to shift their energy dependence to renewables
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Aug 27, 2020 17:57
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Some Guy TT posted:do you suppose there are chinese expat forums where they get mad about how fat and backwards we stupid occidentals are and that we all piss in the street because they saw a homeless guy do it once turkish people have this. i’m guessing nearly any online community of immigrants (“expats,” as they say) does. everyday scenes in american cities created by policing, mental illness, addiction, and the reactions of other people can be pretty stunning to newcomers, especially in contrast to the surrounding wealth and whatever image they had of the usa before migrating to cities that have sidewalks littered with human feces and syringes.
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Aug 27, 2020 18:15
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NaanViolence posted:East Turkestan and Tibet are very large countries which were stolen. Their inhabitants were persecuted and continue to be persecuted. China would also love to steal Taiwan, parts of India, and the South China Sea. when you talk about imperialism what do you mean? is it something you view as the occupation of land and the subjugation of its people? are there any aspects related to production and accumulation, and is it part of some kind of process or stage you can name?
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Aug 27, 2020 18:25
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stephenthinkpad posted:It's okay for the white men to industrialize first and thus pollute the world, but now we must prevent the rest of the non-white world to do it! I think at least most green oriented Marxists have to acknowledge that the West does have to deindustrialize and replace most of the remaining industrial infrastructure with green technology. We have to get ride of a car centered culture, factory farmed meat, a disposable consumer culture etc. to have a chance to survive the next few centuries. While I agree that people who blame China for climate change are a bunch of western chauvinists, let's not frame it as "The West got to live in the riches of this extremely wasteful and destructive way of life, so let's let everyone else do it too!". Bookchin mentioned that the best thing American Leftists could do for the third world was to agitate for the destruction of American Capitalism. mawarannahr posted:when you talk about imperialism what do you mean? is it something you view as the occupation of land and the subjugation of its people? are there any aspects related to production and accumulation, and is it part of some kind of process or stage you can name? I haven't read Lenin,yet however Ardennes mentioned that Lenin didn't consider the subjugation of states by larger states as imperialism. Even if this is the case, I think it's the wrong way to frame things. If I went to someone and said that the erasure of someone's culture and religion isn't imperialism due to some arcane definition, they'd probably be repulsed by what I'm saying, even if they were to be otherwise sympathetic. Preservation of things like Culture, and Religion mean alot to people. There's a reason why Residential Schools are considered a form of Genocide, so it's pretty upsetting to see people here say that the Uighur Re-education camps aren't "really genocide" because they're more like the residential school, or how the whole situation is a natural consolidation of Uighurs into Han identity or whatever. I'm rambling now about this but I just can't understand why western ML's get so caught up on defending this kind of behaviour by the Chinese State. I get that the US's motivations for condemning this is for lovely, ulterior motives, I really do. But I can't get over how people are OK with this. ToxicAcne has issued a correction as of 18:43 on Aug 27, 2020 |
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Aug 27, 2020 18:29
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the question is what aspects of the culture are being erased if it's something like female genital mutilation i don't give a gently caress
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Aug 27, 2020 19:46
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https://twitter.com/meghara/status/1298932743724847104?s=19
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Aug 27, 2020 19:51
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ToxicAcne posted:I haven't read Lenin,yet however Ardennes mentioned that Lenin didn't consider the subjugation of states by larger states as imperialism. Even if this is the case, I think it's the wrong way to frame things. If I went to someone and said that the erasure of someone's culture and religion isn't imperialism due to some arcane definition, they'd probably be repulsed by what I'm saying, even if they were to be otherwise sympathetic. Preservation of things like Culture, and Religion mean alot to people. There's a reason why Residential Schools are considered a form of Genocide, so it's pretty upsetting to see people here say that the Uighur Re-education camps aren't "really genocide" because they're more like the residential school, or how the whole situation is a natural consolidation of Uighurs into Han identity or whatever. To put it more precisely, Lenin really didn’t value the importance of bourgeoisie states on their own. Also, in context of Menshevik Georgia, it has been a German protectorate until Nov 1918 and wasn’t really seen as legitimate by portions of the Central Committee. As for China and the Uyghurs, it goes back to Soviet nationalities policy and how the Soviets put an emphasis on reforming culture to a certain ideal. Turning shrines into museums, making mandarin education mandatory, and monitoring religious services are all apart of that. Also, so it reserving certain positions for local minorities. (Btw I think there is a difference between Canadian residency schools since Canada wanted ( or seemed like it did at least ) to eradicate the identity of native peoples entirely but China wants Uyghur identity to follow a heavily codified form.)
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Aug 27, 2020 20:08
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Ardennes posted:(Btw I think there is a difference between Canadian residency schools since Canada wanted ( or seemed like it did at least ) to eradicate the identity of native peoples entirely but China wants Uyghur identity to follow a heavily codified form.) this seems like splitting hairs
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Aug 27, 2020 20:22
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indigi posted:this seems like splitting hairs The question then becomes what assimilationist policies are deliberately genocidal or not. If they all are (including in Western countries): so be it. If it is something in between then it gets more tricky. Ardennes has issued a correction as of 20:35 on Aug 27, 2020 |
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Aug 27, 2020 20:30
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indigi posted:this seems like splitting hairs Active total erasure of a culture from the face of the earth vs. tolerating it if it stays in a stereotype shaped box the latter is a crime against humanity as well, but if you're in the latter group, moving into the former group would not seem like splitting hairs
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Aug 27, 2020 20:35
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Ardennes posted:(Btw I think there is a difference between Canadian residency schools since Canada wanted ( or seemed like it did at least ) to eradicate the identity of native peoples entirely but China wants Uyghur identity to follow a heavily codified form.) This is still awful though. Why should Han Chinese decide what another groups culture should and should not be? How is another group of people getting to decide what is authentic or inauthentic about someone else's culture not imperialism? Doctor Jeep posted:the question is what aspects of the culture are being erased The British justified Indian colonialism on the basis of getting rid of backwards practices like Sati. Not to justify poo poo like FGM but "forcing these backwards savages to give up their hosed up practices" is a classic excuse by imperialists. ToxicAcne has issued a correction as of 20:46 on Aug 27, 2020 |
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Aug 27, 2020 20:38
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a good example would be communist Somalia https://www.nytimes.com/1977/10/11/archives/somalia-trys-to-live-by-both-the-koran-and-das-kapital.html my mom grew up without wearing a hijab/wearing bikinis to beaches under a totally Islamic country. it doesn’t have to be either/or with these things and if communist Somalia was around today I’m sure people in this very thread would be saying ‘so what if al shabaab practices FGM it doesn’t justify a oppressive imperial regime’ (and as you can see now religion and culture haven’t been stamped out in Somalia)
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Aug 27, 2020 20:54
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ToxicAcne posted:This is still awful though. Why should Han Chinese decide what another groups culture should and should not be? How is another group of people getting to decide what is authentic or inauthentic about someone else's culture not imperialism? Granted, in the context of the PRC, they also claim to view pre revolutionary Han behavior as at least ideologically barbaric and that Mandarin is necessary as a common form of national communication. In that sense at least, it is different than traditional European colonialism.
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Aug 27, 2020 20:55
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Professorjuggalo posted:a good example would be communist Somalia However this was an indigenous movement imposing these kinds of policies on their own population. Nasser in Egypt was pretty similar, as was Ataturk in his capacity as an anti-imperialist Edit: My grandparents had a similar experience under Ayub Khan's Pakistan (Although he was an American stooge). Kind of crazy that the whole Muslim world' s leadership was secular and then it just...disappeared (in large part due to US imperialism). Massive derail sorry, just interesting to point out. ToxicAcne has issued a correction as of 21:05 on Aug 27, 2020 |
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Aug 27, 2020 21:01
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ToxicAcne posted:However this was an indigenous movement imposing these kinds of policies on their own population. Nasser in Egypt was pretty similar, as was Ataturk in his capacity as an anti-imperialist. Uh tell that to the Kurds.
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Aug 27, 2020 21:04
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ToxicAcne posted:However this was an indigenous movement imposing these kinds of policies on their own population. Nasser in Egypt was pretty similar, as was Ataturk in his capacity as an anti-imperialist. ‘indigenous’ to border laws created after the scramble of Africa, Somalia is constructed of 5 major clans and was one of the first things siad barre focused on after creating a script for the country (and had a lot to do with how the country collapsed) 
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Aug 27, 2020 21:07
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Ardennes posted:Uh tell that to the Kurds. Ya my bad that slipped my mind. But the point is that the secularist stuff came from Turks/ Egyptians/Somalian leadership.
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Aug 27, 2020 21:07
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Doctor Jeep posted:the question is what aspects of the culture are being erased Evidence is for, 10s of thousands to hundreds of thousands of people going through compulsory 'vocational' schools where they learn some skills as well as practice patriotism and mandarin Which leads to kids being separated from families, sent to boarding schools Not being allowed to speak Uyghur language at school in general Islamic practices being curtailed, no separation of 'normal' practice from 'extreme' Mosques and cultural/ religious sites including graves being desecrated / abandoned In 2009? Internet was basically shut off in Xinjiang, around the time of the attacks. Most other cultural stuff is protected / left alone. China likes to protect a stereotype of a culture, traditional clothing, dance, food, and marriage rituals... Stuff like that. China petitioned UNESCO to protect some Uighur cultural traditions in 2010, one of only 7 things China has ever listed as 'in urgent need of cultural protection'. Then there's other stuff like people don't like interracial marriage/dating, people moving out of traditional homes into apartment blocks, muslims drinking alcohol... stuff I think is part of normal life and not willful mass punishment or imperialist cultural destruction. In modernity all that is solid melts into air after all.
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Aug 27, 2020 21:11
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sincx has issued a correction as of 05:31 on Mar 23, 2021 |
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Aug 27, 2020 21:47
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ToxicAcne posted:However this was an indigenous movement imposing these kinds of policies on their own population. Nasser in Egypt was pretty similar, as was Ataturk in his capacity as an anti-imperialist Something I learnt recently, not only was India's first Prime Minister, Jawaharlal Nehru an atheist; even Pakistan's founding father, Muhammad Ali Jinnah was also an atheist. In other words, the motives of having a separated nation for the Muslim population of the subcontinent was not a religious argument! However since the partition, Pakistan has turned into Sunni theocratic state. And the long-time ruling party of India, the Congress party who at least pay lip service to pluralism, has seen its own destrouction by the hard-nosed, Muslim-hating Hindu-nationist BJP.
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Aug 27, 2020 22:18
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Again a further derail, but I wouldn't go as far as to call Pakistan a Sunni Theocratic state. Really it's the Military in charge, although it still has to placate the religious leaders quite often. It's not like Iran or Taliban controlled Afghanistan where the Mullahs are at the top of the hierarchy. Actually alot of the Pakistani elite are Shia like the Bhutto family, Zardari, Musharraf, and even Jinnah himself, it's just that they try to not mention it at all or in Jinnah's case lie about him converting to Sunnism on his deathbed. Edit: Should mention that Shias are still actively poo poo upon by a huge portion of the population and many Sunni Mullahs stir up hatred against them, it's just that at the state level its a lot more quiet. ToxicAcne has issued a correction as of 01:17 on Aug 28, 2020 |
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Aug 28, 2020 01:10
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Ardennes posted:Granted, in the context of the PRC, they also claim to view pre revolutionary Han behavior as at least ideologically barbaric and that Mandarin is necessary as a common form of national communication. European historical narratives have this whole thing called the "Dark Ages" where they viewed their ancestors as barbarians too.
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Aug 28, 2020 02:09
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Rimusutera posted:European historical narratives have this whole thing called the "Dark Ages" where they viewed their ancestors as barbarians too. For the China, the Chinese Civil War is still in living memory, as is the massive social shift of the 1950s/1960s. The Cultural Revolution itself was a cultural shift, even if it also touched elements of Western culture in Chinese society. Han culture hasn't been sitting there untouched. That said, part of modern state Chinese culture obviously favors Han people who are Mandarin-speaking since it is their native language...although other Han people (quite a few of them aren't native speakers of Mandarin) have to learn Mandarin as well (I believe roughly 30% of the population).
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Aug 28, 2020 02:32
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Ardennes posted:For the China, the Chinese Civil War is still in living memory, as is the massive social shift of the 1950s/1960s. The Cultural Revolution itself was a cultural shift, even if it also touched elements of Western culture in Chinese society. Han culture hasn't been sitting there untouched. The Renaissance was ongoing / within living memory when Columbus set sail. This argument that its different from how Europeans did it because Han Chinese people view a previous period in their cultural history as 'barbaric' isn't a particularly good one when you realize Europeans have thought this same way about themselves and their relation to being more or less civilized, oft frequently.
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Aug 28, 2020 03:13
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Rimusutera posted:The Renaissance was ongoing / within living memory when Columbus set sail. This argument that its different from how Europeans did it because Han Chinese people view a previous period in their cultural history as 'barbaric' isn't a particularly good one when you realize Europeans have thought this same way about themselves and their relation to being more or less civilized, oft frequently. The Renaissance wasn't a cultural purge, the 1950s/1960s were in China. Religion in China and certain cultural elements are still heavily regulated. The is a reason why "ghosts" and "supernatural elements" are banned in media in China.
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Aug 28, 2020 03:36
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https://twitter.com/DailySignal/status/1299067410843041792
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Aug 28, 2020 04:38
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Lol come on that's a heritage foundation website
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Aug 28, 2020 04:51
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That's literally a plot point from a Tom Clancy novel. A Chinese Baptist living in Beijing asks for help from his priest because his wife just went into labor and it's their second child so he fears that the hospital is going to kill the baby just after it crowns. A CNN camera crew covering trade negotiations between the US and China took a break from their regular beat to visit the parish priest, who's also being visited by the Papal Nuncio at the time. The man gets to the priest, appeals for intervention, and the priest, the Papal Nuncio, and the CNN crew all decide to go to the hospital together after hearing his story. They get to the hospital just as the man's wife is giving birth, and they stop the doctor just as he's about to inject the baby's skull with formaldehyde. A Chinese police officer runs into the room to stop the group, a struggle breaks out, and the cop shoots and kills the man, the priest and the Nuncio, all in view of the CNN camera crew. Later, the Baptist congregation holds a small demonstration in front of the priest's house, in protest of the government cremating the priest's body and dumping the ashes into a river without ever consulting with the priest's widow. The local police are sent over to break up the protest, and they brutalize the protesters - the CNN camera crew happens to capture this yet again, and the cameraman does some quick sleight-of-hand to prevent the tape from getting confiscated by the authorities. They broadcast the footage back to CNN HQ in Atlanta, and the very graphic imagery motivates the world to impose massive economic sanctions on China. Facing impending collapse, they decide to invade Siberia, and the US finds itself allied with a democratic Russia to resist Chinese aggression.
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Aug 28, 2020 05:21
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Ardennes posted:The is a reason why "ghosts" and "supernatural elements" are banned in media in China. that is....insane
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Aug 28, 2020 05:22
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gradenko_2000 posted:That's literally a plot point from a Tom Clancy novel. I wonder if other countries have guys who write stories like this, that are just dumb as hell but fun in that really stupid self serious way
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Aug 28, 2020 05:37
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why would invading siberia prevent the collapse of china were they running out of snow
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Aug 28, 2020 05:43
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Grapplejack posted:Lol come on that's a heritage foundation website
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Aug 28, 2020 05:48
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my favorite adrian zenz factoid isnt even him being a religious nut its that hes cited this very ridiculous figure of ughyur women accounting for eighty percent of all the iuds in china thats obviously a transcription error which should actually just be eight percent but good luck getting anyone to acknowledge this outside of chinese state media
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Aug 28, 2020 05:55
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Some Guy TT posted:why would invading siberia prevent the collapse of china were they running out of snow The Russian President visited his friend, a former Red Army soldier who fought as a sniper Stalingrad and now lives in the wilderness of Siberia, where he puts his marksmanship to use hunting wildlife. As a token of their visit, the soldier presents him with a wolf pelt that's coated with gold. The President asks him how he made that, and he says that there's a particular stream where if he soaks the pelts in it, they get imbued with gold over time. The President's interest gets piqued, and he sends a surveying team to the area that the soldier described. The engineers and technicians find that not only does that area have a huge gold deposit (which explains why the stream would deposit gold on anything it flowed through), but that there's also a veritable ocean of crude oil lying just underneath, with more barrels than even Saudi Arabia ever had. The Russian President contacts President Jack Ryan to tell him the news, and they work out an agreement where American oil companies will help develop drilling and mining operations in the area so that Russia can profit from the discovery. The word of this gets out, and that's what China is after when they invade. Much, much later in the book, when the top commander of the PLA is driving around in his tank, the old sniper manages to shoot him right between the eyes because his head was sticking out of the turret. He then takes the opportunity to say that shooting one fascist now was not all that different from shooting the fascists so many years ago.
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Aug 28, 2020 06:15
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