|
CaptainSarcastic posted:I don't how rational it is, but I still feel like there might be a Zen 3+ refresh before they go to AM5. I plan to upgrade from my 3600X at some point, but probably for a while until after Zen 3 drops and we see where things go. Yeah, that seems to be what all those leaked roadmaps are suggesting. Vermeer (Zen3) this year, Warhol (Zen3 Refresh) 2021, Raphael (5nm Zen4 DDR5) 2022 https://videocardz.com/newz/amd-ryzen-2021-2022-roadmap-partially-leaks
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2020 00:59
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 18, 2024 13:11 |
|
|
wargames posted:Not true, we can start measuring things by picometers. A breathless Intel engineer bursts into the room nearly stumbling over his own momentum as all the cigar smoking captains of silicon industry turn towards his blustery entrance with scrutinizing gazes. The engineer hunches over to catch his breath for a moment and then bolts upright, triumphantly holding a single piece of paper over his head taut for all to see what was emblazoned on it: "+" "PLUS!" He screamed before collapsing to the floor and breathing his last breath. He was at peace for he knew he died well: He had saved nanometer with another "+". Fabulousity fucked around with this message at 03:49 on Aug 28, 2020 |
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2020 03:46
|
|
|
wargames posted:Not true, we can start measuring things by picometers. It won't be picometers to start with; it'll be 0.9nm, just like it was when processes moved below one micron. All of this has happened before, and it will all happen again.
|
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2020 04:18
|
|
|
They're not in any real trouble until they hit 1.6 × 10−11 yoctometres
|
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2020 04:34
|
|
|
Not sure if this is the place to ask, but how long will it be before PC SSD catch up to the one found in the PS5?
|
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2020 04:44
|
|
|
.
sincx fucked around with this message at 05:50 on Mar 23, 2021 |
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2020 05:15
|
|
|
punk rebel ecks posted:Not sure if this is the place to ask, but how long will it be before PC SSD catch up to the one found in the PS5? PCIE 5 SSDs will surely be able to do it but the PS5 is using GDDR6 as main RAM and the whole thing was architected around that. Almost half a terabyte/s and our DDR4 is pushing ~50 GB/s in dual channel.
|
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2020 05:26
|
|
|
punk rebel ecks posted:Not sure if this is the place to ask, but how long will it be before PC SSD catch up to the one found in the PS5? PS5 just has some weird decoder hardware they're using to state effective numbers, actual SSD speeds aren't any more than NVMe, and they need said decoder hardware to move things into vram real quickly since the PS5 doesn't have enough ram for 4k as it would be handled traditionally. Which is to say, nobody knows what the actual impact of PS5/XBSX storage will be since nothings been published, but consoles have always (and please check all of my other posts making GBS threads on the PCMR guys for getting bent out of shape about console specs possibly infringing on their preciouses) been overstated before launch. E: 'weird' is a figure of speech here to illustrate that their numbers aren't the actual speed, I'm aware there's nothing particularly weird about the hardware itself. Fantastic Foreskin fucked around with this message at 06:05 on Aug 28, 2020 |
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2020 06:03
|
|
|
I see. Should it be something to worry about if I'm trying to "future proof" a PC build for next-gen a year from now?
|
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2020 06:40
|
|
|
punk rebel ecks posted:I see. Should it be something to worry about if I'm trying to "future proof" a PC build for next-gen a year from now? Some things might load a few seconds slower / you might miss out on some Konami Kojima gimmick. This is just “weird” because this generation, consoles are contemporaneous with PCs (CPU, GPU, RAM, storage, all are not only the same as PCs, but they’re even likely the same exact IP blocks) and have the advantage of some custom hardware. I think the optimized NVMe thing is actually pretty cool, and an interesting solution to their constraints. PCs can spend more $$$ / thermal budget / whatever to achieve similar goals.
|
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2020 06:55
|
|
|
punk rebel ecks posted:I see. Should it be something to worry about if I'm trying to "future proof" a PC build for next-gen a year from now? No, because future proofing is a pointless endeavor, especially when you're future-proofing against hype and advertising and not a real product. Buying storage right now with games in mind, nvme isn't a bad idea since the additional price over a sata drive isn't very high. But we've yet to see a game that sees any real benefit from nvme on PC, and PC has had fast storage for a long time now. There's more to it than just "the consoles with their laptop HDDs were holding everything back". There's also how rebuilding your level loading code to max out a nvme drive is not trivial, and is work that many games would rather spend on making the part of the game people play. Plus there's the fact that the new consoles are looking like $500 minimum in an economic disaster year, so there's probably gonna be an extended switchover period where a lot of games will be made for previous gen as well. Some Goon posted:E: 'weird' is a figure of speech here to illustrate that their numbers aren't the actual speed, I'm aware there's nothing particularly weird about the hardware itself. My take is that it's "real" speed, since supposedly using the compressed blobs will be the only choice for the PS5... But my other take is there's no free lunch and using a special compressed format has a set of limitations or at least implications to it. Slamming big blobs of data straight into ram for example, only works if you've pre-generated and stored everything in the same format as you use it in ram, which afaik is not the norm at all.
|
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2020 07:10
|
|
|
punk rebel ecks posted:I see. Should it be something to worry about if I'm trying to "future proof" a PC build for next-gen a year from now? It's not really clear how much it is going to be a measurable and significant advantage versus just using an SSD or an NVMe drive, and how much of it is marketing hype. If you're building a new computer now, then the only thing to really look out for is to get a B550 or X570 board if you're on AMD so you can make use of PCIe 4.0, get an NVMe drive, and install your games into that drive. If you're on Intel, you can't even get PCIe 4.0 yet - the Z490 motherboards might be able to support it physically, but the CPUs cannot and won't be able to until Rocket Lake. Beyond that, you can't "future proof" any harder because nothing elsec currently exists that would be better as far as maximizing your storage transfer speeds.
|
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2020 07:13
|
|
|
Klyith posted:No, because future proofing is a pointless endeavor, especially when you're future-proofing against hype and advertising and not a real product. I see. So will my RAID 0 dual HDD get me by for like two or three more years? gradenko_2000 posted:It's not really clear how much it is going to be a measurable and significant advantage versus just using an SSD or an NVMe drive, and how much of it is marketing hype. I see. Thank you.
|
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2020 07:48
|
|
|
punk rebel ecks posted:I see. So will my RAID 0 dual HDD get me by for like two or three more years?
|
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2020 09:31
|
|
|
You're better off buying a cheap SATA SSD and using PrimoCache. Optane isn't good from a price/performance perspective. But personally, I would just get a cheap needs-suiting SSD now and not live with any more HDDs. Any system running from an HDD feels slow as molasses.
Fame Douglas fucked around with this message at 09:42 on Aug 28, 2020 |
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2020 09:36
|
|
|
Asking for comparisons of unreleased products isn't a super productive way to spend your time, especially when the advice for the last decade and change has been: Always buy the best you can for your use case in your budget (comparing two $350 released GPUs, or asking how much of your gaming PC budget should be allocated towards a GPU are different kinds of good questions). Nobody knows how 2021's releases are going to be optimized, but the likelihood is that your computer's inability to play things will sneak up on you rather than blindside you. The games you play now aren't going to play worse on your current hardware after the new stuff comes out. It's cool to be excited, but nobody knows the answers to what you're asking, and nobody is going to know the answers until after release when everyone knows.
|
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2020 12:57
|
|
|
sincx posted:A single silicon atom is about 0.2nm wide, so that might put a floor on how small things can get. Yeah, but there's a broader scope. 20 or so years ago there was hand-wringing about how interference masking just barely worked, and the wavelength of visible light was going to limit everything, and it would never be economically feasible for things to go past the next generation of process shrinks. Yet here we are, many process shrinks later, with CPUs that are higher performance and cost the same (or less) in real terms. Someone will figure out some process, or material, and some more or less disruptive jump will happen. Maybe we finally do hit a wall in semiconductors and integration of photonics starts in earnest and the whole cycle restarts in some more fundamental way. I can't say how things will move forward, but I expect that they will move forward and the upgrade cycle will continue largely unabated. Some Goon posted:PS5 just has some weird decoder hardware they're using to state effective numbers, actual SSD speeds aren't any more than NVMe It's pretty straightforward: they effectively integrated a decompression ASIC into their PCI controller. The SSD interface (as you pointed out) is perfectly standard PCIe4 NVMe. But all game data will be heavilly compressed, and the decompression happens with no CPU overhead (because the decompressor is a hardware block within the IO subsystem), so you get an effective data transfer rate that's higher than PCIe4 with no hit to CPU performance. That said, the max transfer rates Sony is quoting are, of course, best possible case. Real-world numbers will be somewhere between PCIe4 and Sony's theoretical maximum, but even the baseline speed of ordinary PCIe4 kicks the PS4's poo poo in, so it's gonna be pretty fab no matter what. Fame Douglas posted:You're better off buying a cheap SATA SSD ... I would just get a cheap needs-suiting SSD now and not live with any more HDDs. Any system running from an HDD feels slow as molasses. Yes. Please do yourself this favor. mdxi fucked around with this message at 15:22 on Aug 28, 2020 |
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2020 15:19
|
|
|
mdxi posted:That said, the max transfer rates Sony is quoting are, of course, best possible case. Real-world numbers will be somewhere between PCIe4 and Sony's theoretical maximum, but even the baseline speed of ordinary PCIe4 kicks the PS4's poo poo in, so it's gonna be pretty fab no matter what. The number Sony has been quoting (~9GB/sec) supposedly is for real-world assets, the bullshit theoretical peak number you'd get just decompressing a stream of zeros is 22GB/sec https://twitter.com/nothings/status/1240333409722884096
|
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2020 15:39
|
|
|
Thanks for the advice.
|
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2020 16:15
|
|
|
There should be more and better PCIe gen 4 SSDs coming soon, by the end of summer or at least by the end of the year.
|
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2020 16:18
|
|
|
sincx posted:A single silicon atom is about 0.2nm wide, so that might put a floor on how small things can get. so 200 picometers?
|
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2020 18:39
|
|
|
node names are not physical measurements and so the size of an atom is irrelevant, you could have a node called .1nm/100 pm if you wanted. Would that be silly, yes, but node names are already silly.
|
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2020 19:34
|
|
|
Paul MaudDib posted:node names are not physical measurements and so the size of an atom is irrelevant, you could have a node called .1nm/100 pm if you wanted. Would that be silly, yes, but node names are already silly. However, transistors are approaching minimum possible sizes from what I recall; aren't some of them already down to being 8 atoms wide effectively?
|
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2020 20:02
|
|
|
Hence the shift in transistor design at these newer nodes. TSMC thinks they can stick with finFETs for now, but Intel has moved to beefed up finFET they're calling "Super Fin", and Samsung has just moved altogether to GAA-FET to combat electron migration and leakage.
|
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2020 21:11
|
|
|
Fame Douglas posted:You're better off buying a cheap SATA SSD and using PrimoCache. Optane isn't good from a price/performance perspective. But personally, I would just get a cheap needs-suiting SSD now and not live with any more HDDs. Any system running from an HDD feels slow as molasses. Yeah, it’s this. With more games being 100GB in size and simultaneously running poorly without SSD, I can understand the need for a “pantry” style large mechanical drive, but I’d rather run everything out of SSD space. For people who aren’t working with 4K video or other forms of huge data, even a consumer drive can be fine. I use a 1TB SN550 that I bought for $100as a drive for my system and load screen intensive games, my old trusty 750GB SATA 840 EVO that I paid like $300 for in 2013 for most online games where people load in all at once and don’t start until the slowest guy loads in, and I put games I’m not playing on my NAS. If I didn’t have NAS I’d get one of those 5400 rpm shingled drives as a pantry, whatever.
|
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2020 21:21
|
|
|
repiv posted:The number Sony has been quoting (~9GB/sec) supposedly is for real-world assets, the bullshit theoretical peak number you'd get just decompressing a stream of zeros is 22GB/sec I suppose we're all going to have to defer buying new PCs until PCIe 5.0 becomes available with Zen 4. It's either that or lobby for PCIe 4.0 x16 NMEs if you want to avoid being humiliated any time you meet a PS5 owner. And really, at that point PCIe 6.0 will be just around the corner. Probably best to put off playing Cyberpunk 2077 until then to do it justice.
|
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2020 22:27
|
|
|
ConanTheLibrarian posted:I suppose we're all going to have to defer buying new PCs until PCIe 5.0 becomes available with Zen 4. It's either that or lobby for PCIe 4.0 x16 NMEs if you want to avoid being humiliated any time you meet a PS5 owner. Why, so you can load a game in 10 seconds instead of 11 seconds? Who cares that much?
|
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2020 23:17
|
|
|
How is that PrimoCache stuff better than just moving games in and out of the SSD as you finish playing them
|
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2020 23:19
|
|
|
FuturePastNow posted:Why, so you can load a game in 10 seconds instead of 11 seconds? Who cares that much? 
|
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2020 23:23
|
|
|
gradenko_2000 posted:How is that PrimoCache stuff better than just moving games in and out of the SSD as you finish playing them You can RAM cache, and also don't have to micromanage as much. It's less useful for level 2 (caching to an SSD) when youre primarily using SSDs. I run 12 gig of ram as cache through primocache, and a 120 GB SSD as well thats largely vestigial to when I actually used the spinning drives. After SSD prices plummeted it became less of an issue for me personally.
|
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2020 23:25
|
|
|
gradenko_2000 posted:How is that PrimoCache stuff better than just moving games in and out of the SSD as you finish playing them Because it's all done in the background for you, I guess.
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2020 00:06
|
|
|
FuturePastNow posted:Why, so you can load a game in 10 seconds instead of 11 seconds? Who cares that much? At 9GB/s you can load 150MB per frame at 60fps without using the cpu. If implemented correctly the ps5 will run certain games better than any mid range pc, but we’ll have to see what really happens.
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2020 00:23
|
|
|
gradenko_2000 posted:How is that PrimoCache stuff better than just moving games in and out of the SSD as you finish playing them simply continue buying more ssds and never move or uninstall a game at all. (I'm only half joking I literally do this)
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2020 00:35
|
|
|
I would guess it's something that will be used on PS5 exclusives, but not multi-platform games that need to run on the Xbox.
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2020 00:36
|
|
|
If you want to show up the PS5 people in a big way, get a bigass RAMdrive and learn to use junction points. Or there are multiple programs specifically for that already.
gary oldmans diary fucked around with this message at 01:48 on Aug 29, 2020 |
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2020 01:44
|
|
|
Perplx posted:At 9GB/s you can load 150MB per frame at 60fps without using the cpu. If implemented correctly the ps5 will run certain games better than any mid range pc, but we’ll have to see what really happens. first you have to invent something useful to do with 150mb per frame said thing also can't bloat your install size to 1TB
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2020 03:29
|
|
|
That has been shown in a couple of ways already. Rachet and Clank will use rapid loading to let the player quickly portal to completely distinct environments. I'm pretty sure the Unreal 5 demo mentioned swapping in new textures as the player panned the camera around so the VRAM budget could focus only on what's currently visible (more or less). This is another place where consoles have the advantage since a game dev knows the max turn rate of the camera. Probably won't work with PC FPS games where there will inevitably be people who set their mouse sensitivity so they can 180 in 50ms.
ConanTheLibrarian fucked around with this message at 10:16 on Aug 29, 2020 |
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2020 10:14
|
|
|
So what about teleport/blink abilities in games? I don't feel that designing around turn limits on controllers is an accurate statement
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2020 10:25
|
|
|
Zedsdeadbaby posted:So what about teleport/blink abilities in games? I don't feel that designing around turn limits on controllers is an accurate statement Short range blinking appears earlier in that vid I linked. That said, I'm sure there are plenty of cases where devs would have to be conservative with what they unload. Normally the camera in a racing game shouldn't have a quick turn rate, but in the case of a crash, the camera could spin all over the place. Not to mention the side and rear view mirrors.
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2020 10:35
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 18, 2024 13:11 |
|
|
IIRC the consoles had improvements to virtual texturing, to streamline the process of loading the needed texels without involving the CPU so much or sth, I'm not a graphicologist. In theory you need 1 filtered texture sample per pixel per frame. You'll need like 2 MIPMAP samples per pixel or around 2 texels per pixel on average, I think. At 4k you have ~8 megapixels, so you'll need ~16 million texels. At 3 bytes/texel that's ~50 megabytes/frame, but of course it's heavily compressed. That's assuming just a color map, I believe there are other maps, like normal maps, roughness maps, etc. But still a long way off 150MB/s after compression. Geometry streaming should be a fraction of that, outside of unreal 5 tech demos.  Also 60Hz (the denominator) is great, for grandpas playing online poker.
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2020 11:10
|
|
