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And eventually they had cover versions of songs, so they were paying some money, but not the big bucks you'd need for the real artist.
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Aug 27, 2020 23:16
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JOHN CENA posted:i always tended to enjoy feds that just used real music from the start like roh and pwg. roh would just include it on their dvds and hope nobody noticed until the hdnet deal came in and raised their exposure. i always wondered how ecw got away with it on tv and ppv. people claim that heyman had music industry contacts but because its heyman i somehow do not believe that they weren't allowed to. paul was lucky his dad was a really good lawyer
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Aug 27, 2020 23:35
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Smoking Crow posted:they weren't allowed to. paul was lucky his dad was a really good lawyer
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Aug 27, 2020 23:43
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The Tommy Boy deal was that Heyman got $1000/week from Tommy Boy for commercial time, that was it. He made up some bullshit story years later about them giving him $1000/week to have 2 Cold Scorpio use their songs (lol what) and that's how he got to use all the music for free. I think Dreamer said Heyman didn't license any music other than the Harry Slash and ECW album stuff and just hoped no one would notice - free TV clearances back then were a grey area, but he knew when he switched to PPV that charging people money and then playing the music would be more of a risk. That's why a lot the music started changing to in-house/covers after Barely Legal. They weren't doing national VHS releases other than mail-order stuff, so they could get away with putting shows out and not editing out the music since it wasn't sold in stores. Obviously when they went out of business and Pioneer started putting out ECW DVD's, it was quickly realized they were hosed and everything needed to be heavily edited.
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Aug 28, 2020 15:48
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I don't know all of the ins and outs of the ECW situation, but some broad strokes of "music clearance", in the era of ECW: Pretty much all licensing of music makes a distinction between "recordings" and "ephemeral/broadcasting" use. In the 1980s and 1990s, there was a pretty clear cut distinction between the two; a television or radio broadcast was ephemeral, whereas a VHS/DVD or cassette/CD was permanent and a 'recording'. Most ephemeral uses (whether broadcast or things like 'playing recorded music over the loudspeakers in a public place like a stadium or wrestling show') were covered under a blanket license. So to use "Enter Sandman" as an example: Radio stations could play "Enter Sandman" all they wanted because they had a blanket license from BMI/ASCAP (ASCAP being the group that handles Metallica's copyrights). Likewise Yankee Stadium could play "Enter Sandman" when Mariano Rivera walks out because they also have a blanket license. Most TV broadcasters have blanket licenses too so if an MTV show wanted to use "Enter Sandman" in the background of an MTV Rock N Jock B-Ball Jam airing, they could too. With a blanket license you're supposed to have a log of all of the music you play, which you submit to the licensors and they take the pool of the blanket licenses you and everyone else bought and distribute it out to the songwriters/performers. There's no sort of approval process for this; an artist can't say "102.7 FM is allowed to play my new single, but 92.3 isn't because one of their DJs made fun of me." The Allan Parsons Project couldn't prohibit Ricky Steamboat (or the Chicago Bulls) from using Sirius as their entrance theme because they're Horsemen/Pistons fans. This extends out to today with Donald Trump or other politicians using music by artists who disagree politically, because they've got a blanket license for putting on live events, though some musicians are basically suing Trump anyway This all got very complicated as people mentioned when the line between ephemeral broadcasts and 'permanent' recordings started to blur (in terms of on demand video, streaming radio, etc.), though it was pretty clear cut when the home video/DVD market really opened up to things that weren't movies. You have to seek out and obtain individual licenses for every song you include on a home video/DVD, which is why it either took forever or we got bowlderized re-edited DVD/streaming re-releases of old WCW/WWF shows, Miami Vice, Northern Exposure, The State, any variety show with live musical guests, etc. What's not clear with ECW/Paul Heyman is if he ever even bothered getting a blanket license for those old shows; my understanding is that if you were a network/cable show, you'd just be able to use their license so any music used on an old WCW show was covered under Turner's contract, old Raws were covered under USA's, etc. ECW for the bulk of its television run was syndicated, which I believe means that ECW would have had to cover that. There's also the issue that commercials are covered under completely different licenses, so hypothetically using Misrilou for ECW ads would have required an actual contract. Nothing about ECW or Paul Heyman suggests to me he bothered to do any of this. This incidentally is also probably why no one in AEW is using their indie music; it's true that it would be really easy to legally license Jane or Tarzan Boy or whatever to air on TNT, but it would be a complicated web of licenses to make sure they don't get sued for streaming that song on FITE TV, or broadcast on TSN, or letting you purchase it after the broadcast on B/R Live etc.
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Aug 28, 2020 17:11
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Edge & Christian posted:What's not clear with ECW/Paul Heyman is if he ever even bothered getting a blanket license for those old shows; my understanding is that if you were a network/cable show, you'd just be able to use their license so any music used on an old WCW show was covered under Turner's contract, old Raws were covered under USA's, etc. ECW for the bulk of its television run was syndicated, which I believe means that ECW would have had to cover that. I'd think channels like SportsChannel, Sunshine Network and MSG which carried ECW would have had blanket licenses for in-stadium hockey/baseball/basketball music TNN probably did too for Monster Jam or rodeos or whatever - they had an entire show that was just live footage from a line dancing club at some point, so I'm sure they had some kind of music licensing deal
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Aug 28, 2020 17:58
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it's really hard to understate how bad paul heyman was at business the man lost money on licensing a video game
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Aug 28, 2020 18:14
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Wasn't that because he desperately needed funds to stay afloat and as a result, got Acclaim to give ECW an advance/invest in the company? I would imagine both ECW games sold like poo poo too. I think they also lost money on the ECW Action Figures. A lot of the late era ECW licensing deals seem to be rather bad because Paul just needed the immediate money infusion to keep the grift going. I would have to look up the ECW bankruptcy Observer issues again for all the figures, but I remember Acclaim, Original San Francisco Toy Makers, and the NY TV channels being at the top of the list of creditors claiming losses from ECW going under
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Aug 28, 2020 18:38
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Weren't the ECW games pretty much reskins of WWF Attitude?
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Aug 28, 2020 19:10
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bartok posted:Weren't the ECW games pretty much reskins of WWF Attitude? Yes Even the Gameboy Color one
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Aug 28, 2020 19:15
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Though at least the second game added a bunch of dumb gimmick matches. The first didn't even have that
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Aug 28, 2020 19:18
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bartok posted:Weren't the ECW games pretty much reskins of WWF Attitude? They didn't even update the names of the internal files. If you explore the disc (or put it on a Playstation Classic), it still calls everything WWF Attitude.
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Aug 28, 2020 19:31
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DeathChicken posted:Though at least the second game added a bunch of dumb gimmick matches. The first didn't even have that There was a throw your opponent into lava match. A side note, some of the generic themes from those two games are quite fun to listen and compare to the real ones.
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Aug 28, 2020 19:51
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Those and the WWF Attitude game were so tedious to play. Pausing every 30 secs to bring up the menu and read what 10-button combo does a DDT. Also they didn’t bother to include everybody’s specific moves so like half the roster in each game had a “close enough” move as their finisher
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Aug 28, 2020 20:25
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Edge & Christian posted:With a blanket license you're supposed to have a log of all of the music you play, which you submit to the licensors and they take the pool of the blanket licenses you and everyone else bought and distribute it out to the songwriters/performers. There's no sort of approval process for this; an artist can't say "102.7 FM is allowed to play my new single, but 92.3 isn't because one of their DJs made fun of me." The Allan Parsons Project couldn't prohibit Ricky Steamboat (or the Chicago Bulls) from using Sirius as their entrance theme because they're Horsemen/Pistons fans. quote:You have to seek out and obtain individual licenses for every song you include on a home video/DVD, which is why it either took forever or we got bowlderized re-edited DVD/streaming re-releases of old WCW/WWF shows, Miami Vice, Northern Exposure, The State, any variety show with live musical guests, etc.
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Aug 28, 2020 20:31
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Breitbart Is Rightbart posted:There was a throw your opponent into lava match. The entire terrible Warzone-engine series remains completely justified by the existence of this theme: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22okVsQVXAM
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Aug 28, 2020 20:43
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CarlCX posted:The entire terrible Warzone-engine series remains completely justified by the existence of this theme: *does the Let's Go Skiing taunt*
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Aug 28, 2020 20:44
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The best thing about those games is listening to all the clips totally out of context and the weird challenge/taunt clips on PSX. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEx4R_4XED0 The HBK "It's time to go to school, Jackson!" is particular mystifying. Love Owen's "Here's the part where I hit my move!"
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Aug 28, 2020 20:54
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WWF War Zone was worth it entirely for the Ahmed Johnson promos. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bGErn95VGQ
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Aug 28, 2020 21:25
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Halloween Jack posted:As a former volunteer DJ I can confirm that it's a huge pain in the rear end to keep a playlist of everything you play and exactly how much of the track you played. I had radio shows in college, and now I know why we had to do that. I would have thought a college station would be exempt, but who knows.
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Aug 28, 2020 22:26
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TL posted:WWF War Zone was worth it entirely for the Ahmed Johnson promos. I forgot about toothy boy.
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Aug 28, 2020 22:29
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TL posted:WWF War Zone was worth it entirely for the Ahmed Johnson promos. Ahmed was like the Platonic ideal of a 1980s WWF wrestler. Insane promos, insanely jacked look, good presence, oh what could've been.
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Aug 28, 2020 22:33
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MorrisBae posted:The Tommy Boy deal was that Heyman got $1000/week from Tommy Boy for commercial time, that was it. He made up some bullshit story years later about them giving him $1000/week to have 2 Cold Scorpio use their songs (lol what) and that's how he got to use all the music for free. More broadly, when we did the ECW's road to PPV/Mass Transit BTS Patreon special, we realized what a large part of the situation probably was. For years, the end of the show credited "Mike Esterman/On Q TV" as "music coordinator," and we decided to Google him: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GmrFJbjqaU It became clear that Mike Esterman was some NYC club guy with one of those public access shows that mixed interviews, performance footage, and regular commercial music videos. There were even some public access shows that were just music videos. There were a bunch of these back in the day, and a lot of them actually got the videos sent to them officially from the labels. We came to the obvious conclusion that—almost certainly for the music videos and probably also for playing entrance music—their theoretical defense was based on using whatever license and/or implicit approval Esterman had to use the music. It would also explain the choice to keep some of the footage of the original music videos in the ECW music videos with the wrestling footage; that perhaps it was more than an artistic choice. Smoking Crow posted:it's really hard to understate how bad paul heyman was at business Tato posted:Wasn't that because he desperately needed funds to stay afloat and as a result, got Acclaim to give ECW an advance/invest in the company? I would imagine both ECW games sold like poo poo too. Acclaim paid $1.5 million for 15% of the company (that's why Heyman's pitch to Billy Corgan a year later was $1 million for 10%). I don't THINK ECW ended up owing anything specifically due to the terms of the license as much as they quickly leveraged the relationship out the rear end and never paid the loans back. With syndication affiliates, those were time buys where ECW just fell behind in paying. MSG let them stay for close to a year without payment, which is kind of insane. With Toymakers, I don't remember that debt ever being explained, so we have to assume that there was either a loan or an advance that was actually a glorified loan. Same for FarmClub.com. TNN wasn't a debtor at the end, but the deal required so much money flowing into TNN and increased production expenses that it also contributed to the end of the company.
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Aug 29, 2020 00:19
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Oh god I totally forgot about the last ditch FarmClub thing just to try and get on USA’s radar
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Aug 29, 2020 00:39
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Basically like 95% of ECW's existence was Paul Heyman trying to bullshit his way out of bankruptcy
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Aug 29, 2020 00:48
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Benne posted:Basically like 95% of ECW's existence was Paul Heyman trying to bullshit his way out of bankruptcy 95% seems low
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Aug 29, 2020 04:02
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CarlCX posted:The entire terrible Warzone-engine series remains completely justified by the existence of this theme: I'm almost positive I had this game and I don't remember this at all. Wait, I think I only had the second one, Warzone. Attitude was the first, yes?
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Aug 29, 2020 13:20
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Attitude was the second
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Aug 29, 2020 13:36
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Oh, then I have no idea how I missed that song, I definitely had Attitude. That was the one that opened with a tribute to Owen, right?
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Aug 29, 2020 13:45
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I had both and the only thing I remember about them was the character heel/face alignment being out of date and having to enter in a Mortal Kombat fatality buttom combination to do anything other than a basic move.
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Aug 29, 2020 16:26
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I really liked Attitude since it was the first wrestling game I played with decent create-a-wrestler and career modes. May have been the only game back then I bought the day it came out - called a bunch of local stores and most of them wouldn't sell it to me until they did it for people who had put in pre-orders. I thought the engine was fine, but I didn't play a lot of other wrestling games, and a lot of what I did play was much worse (WCW Nitro for PSX was atrocious).
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Aug 29, 2020 17:03
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Warzone/Attitude had slightly better looking graphics and actual voice lines, and dogshit everything else, especially animations. No Mercy is the best wrestling game ever. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLy9gglWLsg&t=115s How could you not enjoy these clips from Rocky? Admiral Joeslop fucked around with this message at 17:10 on Aug 29, 2020 |
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Aug 29, 2020 17:08
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i lolled irl at austins diving headbutt
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Aug 29, 2020 17:14
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I remember Warzone and Attitude being better than Nitro and Thunder, though not by much. On Tour and Revenge were good, and No Mercy was of course even better using the same engine. I liked Mayhem at the time (it has something I've never seen in another wrestling game: the ability to create an invisible wrestler, or a wrestler who is simply a floating head) but it's quite stiff to play, and while I played the heck out of the first two Smackdown games I don't think they've aged anywhere near as well as No Mercy. But at least none of them are as bad as Backstage Assault. That's the first time I remember getting seriously miffed with a Blockbuster rental.
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Aug 29, 2020 17:38
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MorrisBae posted:I'd think channels like SportsChannel, Sunshine Network and MSG which carried ECW would have had blanket licenses for in-stadium hockey/baseball/basketball music The real hang-up for ECW using all those popular songs would have been is if anyone was paying attention to their VHS tape selling, or I guess if BMI/ASCAP showed up to one of their events and asked for their live event license. Which sounds absurd, but BMI/ASCAP has an entire department that goes around to restaurants, bars, bookstores, anywhere that might be playing music to ensure they've got a license and have paid up. If you're just playing the radio (or I guess a free over the air television channel) you're in the clear, but if you were playing music off of a copyrighted CD/LP/cassette and didn't have a public broadcast license, you're technically in violation of copyright. Because of the proliferation of iPods and other devices in the early 2000s, they went on an insane run of going around fining coffee shops, independent shops, etc. ECW was long dead by then though. Anyway, what's even weirder is that the album of ECW Theme Songs But Recorded By Knock Off Bands came out in 1998, which was before they went onto TNN or (to my knowledge) got a legit home video distribution deal. That could have just been down to it being a lot cheaper to put out a CD that way, though. When did ROH switch over to original composition for entrances?
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Aug 29, 2020 18:07
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Edge & Christian posted:ECW Theme Songs But Recorded By Knock Off Bands https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tQ5FIG_m3w White Zombie, Megadeth and Anthrax were on there as well. I was pretty surprised to see how many big-name artists they had on ECW Extreme Music. I also like the cover photo, which looks like Sandman was trying to put up a barbed wire fence but was too drunk to do it properly and this was the end result. DMorbid fucked around with this message at 18:28 on Aug 29, 2020 |
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Aug 29, 2020 18:22
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Edge & Christian posted:When did ROH switch over to original composition for entrances? Some point in 2009 I think. But after they started on HDNet for some reason. Because I just checked the DVD for the first show of The Final Countdown Tour and ironically enough Bryan Danielson is coming out to a very bad knock-off of The Final Countdown, where as at the 7th Year Anniversary he had the proper tunes.
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Aug 29, 2020 19:10
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Doc M posted:I also like the cover photo, which looks like Sandman was trying to put up a barbed wire fence but was too drunk to do it properly and this was the end result. I'm pretty sure that's exactly what happened.
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Aug 29, 2020 19:34
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CarlCX posted:The entire terrible Warzone-engine series remains completely justified by the existence of this theme: I never knew Japanese Death Match Legend the Death Dealer Dr. Luther had a singing career.
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Aug 29, 2020 19:57
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Hedgehog Pie posted:I liked Mayhem at the time (it has something I've never seen in another wrestling game: the ability to create an invisible wrestler, or a wrestler who is simply a floating head) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNHem-LeOZw
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Aug 29, 2020 21:18
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