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The enworld forums archived most of the guides, but everything else is gone forever. Concepts... leader, defender, striker is the core of 4e. For new players you want the leader and especially the defender to be straightforward. Fighters need to attack to keep their mark and punish with an Immediate Interrupt melee attack. They can punish shifts but can rarely stop them, but they can't punish at range. While straightforward enough the constant condition tracking can be difficult for new and old players alike. They have some of the best powers and widest range of options in the game. Paladins have two types of mark, one introduced in Divine Power to fix the class. They need to attack or be adjacent to continue one of the marks and the other usually only lasts one turn. They punish automatically - meaning their immediate action is free for other things. They don't punish shifts but can deal their punishment damage regardless of range. Somewhat confusing to manage two marks but easier to punish and maintain marks than the fighter with plenty of options. Swordmage has a fire and forget mark mechanic and the main builds either attack the opponent or shield the ally from damage, both using the Immediate action. Probably one of the simplest defenders to play with some charop guidance but also some of the most in depth charop as their abilities are lacklustre and covering that up though hybrids or other means was common. Warden and Battlemind were in my opinion more complex characters. As for leaders, they have simpler concepts although they all can do all the things: the Warlord is the attack granting leader, the Bard is the movement and debuff leader, the Artificer is the buff granting leader, the Cleric the extra healing leader, and the Shaman the area buffing leader. But they all can do these things. I would say the Warlord, Cleric, and Bard are easiest to play while the Artificer and Shaman require more careful positioning and thought. There's a huge variety in builds here so mostly it's a matter of matching build to player. To showcase 4e in one session I might recommend shielding swordmage or fighter, inspiring warlord, rogue, maybe a sorcerer or warlock? If you go past 4 then a simple controller could work too. These are straightforward classes that showcase the best parts of 4e with strong powers and few fiddly bits. Rogue and warlock mechanics are even similar in 5e. When they bring their own provide plenty of building support especially in terms of feat taxes, MBA, matching concept with options, etc. It'll be pretty difficult without a character builder so idk what the solution is. TheDemon fucked around with this message at 17:38 on Aug 30, 2020 |
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Aug 30, 2020 17:36
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Synnr posted:Additionally, I wanted to skim the charop stuff I used to before, just to refresh my brain on any obvious traps or great choices for classes but I guess the wotc forum got deleted, did they get archived anywhere? I’ve found this to be the best Char Op Guide backup: http://www.dyasdesigns.com/dragon_phoenix/
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Aug 30, 2020 20:48
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I'd honestly recommend against doing a demo above level 2 or 3. Turns are going to take an extremely long time as people try to figure out what their powers do. Level 2 seems decent to me because you get an extra encounter power. And with the Monster Vault there are definitely still some fun baddies to put them against. I always like to drop the level 1 dragon on a new party for example, no matter what I have to skin it as.
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Aug 30, 2020 21:08
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I probably should have been more clear that I've got a bunch of player experience and a fair amount of DM experience for 4e. I'm just incredibly rusty, it's been a couple of years and most of it was with a PC client rather than in person so I've been thinking how to approach the grid part. Klungar posted:I’ve found this to be the best Char Op Guide backup: http://www.dyasdesigns.com/dragon_phoenix/ This does look like most of what I was looking for, thanks! ImpactVector posted:I'd honestly recommend against doing a demo above level 2 or 3. Turns are going to take an extremely long time as people try to figure out what their powers do. Level 2 seems decent to me because you get an extra encounter power. I was initially thinking..I think it's 4/5? when they get skill option or misc powers like movement, but yeah my initial gut was relatively low but playing up the heroic description stuff. I still feel like 4e gave me a much better "everyone is a Heroic Figure" than 3.x/PF/5e I wanted to show off. I'll definitely think about the dragon thing though; I wanted to give a variety of events and frankly I thought even a stripped down version of uhhh....keep on the shadowfell (?The low lvl release) was still very meh. Synnr fucked around with this message at 00:07 on Aug 31, 2020 |
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Aug 30, 2020 23:59
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First Utility is 2, second Encounter is 3.
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Aug 31, 2020 09:05
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Synnr posted:I thought maybe I'd bang out some characters for one top of heroic tier/paragon one-shot, have them make their own for the next in low heroic, and maybe they carry it on to a campaign if it goes. Any particular recommendations, either prebuilts or general concepts for any of that? My major piece of advice here is that I’d probably cut out controllers from a beginner party. They’re heavy on status effects, which means they’re heavily on fiddly bookkeeping and they’re also just a bad design that ends up making the other roles feel less impactful. I’d also stick to some of the stuff that makes 4e feel so significantly better than other versions. I’d have a fighter defender that does a lot of pushes/slides, warlord healer with a lot of enabling, that kind of thing.
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Aug 31, 2020 09:15
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Defender, Leader, Melee Striker, Ranged Striker wouldn’t be a bad setup.
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Aug 31, 2020 10:11
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I mean, maybe a player likes imposing status effects and dealing with fiddly bookkeeping. Or maybe a player who does a lot of pushing and sliding and a controller player with area bursts would enjoy working together. I'd have a controller pregen in there.
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Aug 31, 2020 10:26
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Commander Keene posted:First Utility is 2, second Encounter is 3. I probably have already asked this question, but I’m very forgetful. How many powers do you think is optimum for player experience? Is 10 the correct amount, too much or too few? Which types of powers would you want to offer more or fewer of?
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Aug 31, 2020 16:19
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DalaranJ posted:I probably have already asked this question, but I’m very forgetful. How many powers do you think is optimum for player experience? Is 10 the correct amount, too much or too few? Which types of powers would you want to offer more or fewer of?
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Aug 31, 2020 16:39
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DalaranJ posted:Which types of powers would you want to offer more or fewer of?
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Aug 31, 2020 16:49
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Anyone have a good list of neat/interesting non-combat feats? As one would expect, there are tons of guides for combat-focused feats but nothing for non-combat.
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Sep 23, 2020 01:02
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dwarf74 posted:I don't know the specific power numbers, but IMO the 4e sweet spot is from mid- to upper Heroic; to low, maybe mid-Paragon. Checking the advancement chart, a level 10 character has 12 powers (2 at will, 3 encounter, 3 daily, 3 utility, and one daily magic item) and a level 15 character has 15 powers (2 at will, 4 encounter, 3 daily, 4 utility and two daily magic items). My level 26 party each have 20 powers (2 at will, 4 encounter, 4 daily, 7 utility, 3 daily magic items) and that definitely feels like too many.
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Sep 23, 2020 10:14
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The sweet spot is more about how good the game plays than how complex it is. I think complexity is probably good at level 5 to 9 or so, from when you pick your second daily to when you get your third which is also where builds have enough feats to work. In low paragon up to level 16 where you get the second paragon feature there's a lot of character synergy and power before the game gets too overwhelming, but that section is definitely on the complex side and gets a pass mostly for neat builds it enables. 17+ you don't gain much more in build synergy but the game complexity still increases and the difficulty starts to get stale.
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Sep 23, 2020 13:08
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Well, one area where power quantity and gameplay are at odds are reaction and interrupt powers. The more of those the party has, the more the flow of the game gets interrupted. It can be pretty confusing remembering where you are in the initiative order when characters are making entire "Oh I get to hit him if he does that, I rolled a 45 did I hit, oh I missed huh oh actually he's granting combat advantage so it's 47 oh good I actually hit, I rolled 27 damage and he's pushed 2 and prone" actions in the monster turn. The more powers a party has, the more of those there tend to be. Streamlining that kind of power would be something I'd like to see in a 4th ed rewrite. I liked what Strike did with opportunity attacks where they were just a flat damage number that anyone granting one automatically took, no damage roll or turn interruption required.
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Sep 23, 2020 13:29
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Klungar posted:Anyone have a good list of neat/interesting non-combat feats? As one would expect, there are tons of guides for combat-focused feats but nothing for non-combat. 4e's non-combat design is kind of an afterthought, I really doubt there's a lot of non-combat guides out there. You can get things like skill proficiencies and speed boost easily, but there's relatively little in terms of improving out-of-combat interaction because the bones of 4e are dungeon delving and it laser focussed on that aspect. Utility powers are where most of the non-com stuff is, and Rituals. There's tonnes of stuff in Rituals if you look there.
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Sep 24, 2020 10:05
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Yeah, rituals are a really underrated bit of 4E and they're a really good place to slot in fun bits of fluff and flavour unique to your setting. I really wish that a fraction of the effort that had gone into writing feats had gone into writing rituals with entirely RP consequences. Like, my setting doesn't have ressurection at all, so in place of Gentle Repose I have a ritual called Hold The Gate, which doesn't heal you or ease your pain but lets you cling onto life for another day until someone can get your mangled body to a proper surgeon (and whose component costs double each day you cast it in a row). Or there's one which conjures up an image of whichever god the target worships. Doesn't allow communication, just lets you check someone's credentials.
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Sep 24, 2020 10:40
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I'm slowly digging through this thread, but does anyone have a link to articles or condensed discussion on the various fixes/revisions people have suggested to improve 4e? I've got sporadic information from forums/reddits, but it'd be nice to have something collected. I'm working on a video game that takes heavy heavy inspiration from 4e and it's good to get as many ideas as possible on changes and to explore potential pitfalls I never happened to encounter in my own experience.
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Oct 13, 2020 23:59
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The biggest thing is, make sure you are using the newest monster math and design guidelines. That will make more difference than anything else. The Monster Vaults are good. Anything before that is varying degrees of bad, getting worse the further back you go. MM3 and DSCC had the updated math, but not the updated design. Anything before that will need a rebuild.
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Oct 14, 2020 00:26
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Regarding monster maths, use this These days I just work out what the monster's average damage is and have them do that every time (unless they crit, then add 50%) instead of rolling. At higher levels I round the damage to the nearest 5 to make hitpoint maths faster.
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Oct 14, 2020 14:25
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For utility, which is occasionally noncombat, if you multi class you can then take feats to replace your existing powers with options from the other class. Most often used to steal a good utility power, since you often have more than are useful and can afford to replace a few. So I'd look into multiclass power swap guides... pretty sure one exists.
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Oct 14, 2020 19:43
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Another little hack I've been using is to add 21 to a monster's attack number (so a monster with +6 to hit gets 27) and then have the players roll their defense (AC/Fort/Ref/Will) against that number. If they equal or exceed the target they don't get hit. If they get a 20 they don't get hit, regardless of the target number. If they roll a 1 they get critted. Means one less dice for me to roll, and invests players in defending themselves. I'm still trying to think of a way to pre-roll initiatives. I'd just add 10 to the monster's initiative stat, but you might end up with a situation where all the monsters go one after another in the middle of the order. Maybe I'll just cheat and let the fastest player go first, then the fastest monster type, then the middle player, then the slowest monsters, then the slowest player, and pretend I rolled for it.
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Oct 14, 2020 20:02
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I like that active defense mechanic; it reminds me of the defense rules in Black Sword Hack, a Moorcockian version of The Black Hack that I've been enjoying lately. I can't think of a better version of the monster initiative method you mentioned. You could, potentially, have "this monster can actually attack before the fastest player" and "these monsters work as a pack and take their action one after the other" as particularly fearsome monster powers. (I've been hosed over by a vindictive DM using pack-attack monsters, but, well, you wouldn't be proposing these solutions if you were looking to be a Killer DM.)
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Oct 14, 2020 20:43
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Why not just actually preroll monster initiative for each encounter you prep? e: or if you build encounters on the fly just roll 1d4 instead for initiative +5/+10/+15/+20, that probably at least speeds up the calculation. I once ran a big beholder boss fight. I prerolled something like 100 random eye rays including attack and damage rolls, put them all in a table and just went one line down whenever one triggered. My Lovely Horse fucked around with this message at 21:18 on Oct 14, 2020 |
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Oct 14, 2020 21:15
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My Lovely Horse posted:Why not just actually preroll monster initiative for each encounter you prep? I want to avoid "the monsters all go together and nuke someone without them getting to respond" issues. If I pre-roll initiative I'll get that sooner or later.
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Oct 15, 2020 19:02
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Gort posted:I want to avoid "the monsters all go together and nuke someone without them getting to respond" issues. If I pre-roll initiative I'll get that sooner or later. 
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Oct 15, 2020 19:33
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seems a bit silly to roll at all if I'm going to fudge any roll I didn't want
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Oct 15, 2020 19:36
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In that case, maybe HJ's suggestion, combined with everyone having static (bonus + 10) initiative? And anything that lets you reroll initiative and take the better is just a +4 bonus. (Or a +2 if it makes you keep the second roll.) Not quite accurate, but close enough, and there's precedent for +4 init bonuses.Halloween Jack posted:I can't think of a better version of the monster initiative method you mentioned. You could, potentially, have "this monster can actually attack before the fastest player" and "these monsters work as a pack and take their action one after the other" as particularly fearsome monster powers. (I've been hosed over by a vindictive DM using pack-attack monsters, but, well, you wouldn't be proposing these solutions if you were looking to be a Killer DM.) girl dick energy fucked around with this message at 20:00 on Oct 15, 2020 |
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Oct 15, 2020 19:56
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Gort posted:seems a bit silly to roll at all if I'm going to fudge any roll I didn't want Do what's best for the game, and use the DM screen as a shield when needed. Players love hearing the DM be all "oh I /almost/ got you!" It doesn't have to be true. Alternately, sometimes a PC just needs a smack in the face.
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Oct 16, 2020 07:24
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Rauri posted:Do what's best for the game, and use the DM screen as a shield when needed. Players love hearing the DM be all "oh I /almost/ got you!" It doesn't have to be true. Alternately, sometimes a PC just needs a smack in the face. I super disagree with the sentiment that fudging dice is good. The thing I like best about 4e combat -- hell, 4e in general -- is that, in general, it's balanced enough that I can play as hard as I like as a DM and create a satisfying and close-run fight without needing to fudge any dice rolls. That means that when players do well in a fight, they know that it's not because I decided as a DM that they should win this fight, it's because the players OC came up with a good strategy and executed it well.
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Oct 16, 2020 08:22
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Reduced cases of "Save vs death/disabled rest of encounter" probably helps in cutting down how much dice nudging there is in 4th ed on both sides of the GM screen, more than it's overall math  Sometimes you need to either stick with the dice or throw them in the garbage. But I have found over the years that trying to base the decision on "It feels more authentic/Dramatic if I-" is bad news whether you love fudging dice or hate it. Granted my own experience often run into bizzaro world "So the GM told me they don't feel it's realistic for regular arrows to the shins to do nonlethal takedowns because arrows are SHARP and clearly the flavor text implies they will bleed out!... But also they gave me his homebrew alchemy acid arrows that teleport back to my quiver on a miss." So usually if dice are being fudged or not are the least of my concerns, for or against me. Section Z fucked around with this message at 08:58 on Oct 16, 2020 |
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Oct 16, 2020 08:53
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Any good ideas for magical gear that could be made from an aboleth corpse?
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Oct 16, 2020 09:48
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Iunnrais posted:Any good ideas for magical gear that could be made from an aboleth corpse? Mechanically or narratively? Mechanically, I'd say something to protect against Charm effects, or just outright reuse one of the Slime powers from the MM1 stat block. Narratively, it's clearly got to be making a ushanka out of the thing. I mean, look at them, their head is the exact right shape.
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Oct 16, 2020 10:14
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Section Z posted:Reduced cases of "Save vs death/disabled rest of encounter" probably helps in cutting down how much dice nudging there is in 4th ed on both sides of the GM screen, more than it's overall math I think there's a bunch of things that help, tbh: crits doing max damage rather than double damage is a big one too, as is the amount of expendable resources (action points, daily powers, etc) available to PCs to get them out of a hole. The other houserule I've picked up to avoid having to dicenudge is the concept of the Rout. At any time during a combat encounter, the party can -- by unanimous agreement -- declare a Rout. This means that regardless of how many PCs are down right now, the combat encounter ends with the PCs fleeing, having entirely failed their objective but ultimately still alive. The concept does mean that I then can't run a combat where the only objective for the PCs is "don't all die" -- but for me that's a feature, not a bug: additional objectives for the PCs are one of the best ways to make a combat encounter more interesting and dynamic.
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Oct 16, 2020 10:41
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Lemon-Lime posted:Mechanically or narratively? More mechanically minded. The campaign doesn't really allow for "magic shops" and the corpse should be treasure. I'm hoping there's some good magic items I'm less familiar with that would match thematically, and help the party significantly. Resisting charm might be a bit weak... particularly now that the aboleth is dead. I'm hoping for more universally useful items to give them.
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Oct 16, 2020 10:46
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Iunnrais posted:More mechanically minded. The campaign doesn't really allow for "magic shops" and the corpse should be treasure. I'm hoping there's some good magic items I'm less familiar with that would match thematically, and help the party significantly. Resisting charm might be a bit weak... particularly now that the aboleth is dead. I'm hoping for more universally useful items to give them. So while a consumable would be boring, some sort of horrific pool noodle weapon that made injuries look more horrifying than they actually are might be in the cards. "Take a good look at your organs while they are still inside you, it will be the last time you see them." 
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Oct 16, 2020 11:36
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Hey y'all, I have found myself once again playing in a 4th edition game. I hope this isn't  talk but I'm looking to help my DM out with the old offline Adventure Tools program, so she can modify monsters and print out necessary stat blocks. I was able to find the Character Builder without much issue, but finding the other program has been a challenge. Does anyone have a link handy?
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Oct 30, 2020 17:15
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Super Waffle posted:Hey y'all, I have found myself once again playing in a 4th edition game. I hope this isn't I'm not sure if that one was upkept as well as the CB (or at all?), but hopefully someone can DM you about it.
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Nov 5, 2020 08:47
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S.J. posted:I'm not sure if that one was upkept as well as the CB (or at all?), but hopefully someone can DM you about it. I was able to find an old version of Masterplan and all the 4e libraries, so that'll work. Crazy to think that programs like this are just lost to the sands of time.
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Nov 6, 2020 18:27
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My current group has only ever payed 5E, and the current DM saw a bunch of YouTube videos about 4E and asked if I would run it for them since I've actually played it before. The thing is, I only played it like three times. I enjoyed it, but never got more chances to play. I want to run it for them, but I have questions. What adventures are good for showing the system? Should I keep it to PHB1 to start, or open up PHB2 for Bards and Druids? Is there a character creation software of some kind that still works? Any advice on running it is greatly appreciated.
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Nov 13, 2020 17:54
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