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The prime directive makes more sense if it’s just we won’t get involved in a planets internal politics. Otherwise the federation seems like some fascist survival of the fittest death cult
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Aug 29, 2020 20:31
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If the Prime Directive's expiration for any given culture is based on "when they will find us" it should have way more contingencies in place for that. If a planet discovers subspace communication before being able to make a stable warp bubble, would the Federation just silence the phone when it rings because they don't recognize the number? Or would they realize that this culture evolved in a different direction, but is still SUPER aware of alien cultures? Just because they can't get to you doesn't mean they don't know you're there.
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Aug 29, 2020 22:32
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The Prime Directive is really vague and inconsistent. Later on they say it means "no contact whatsoever" but then earlier it means "contact however you like, but just don't mess around" back when they were trying to kill Wesley. Also, despite "prime" being in the name, it's way down there in the list of priorities for every Star Trek captain. It makes sense that if their goal in going out to explore is just to find novelty that they couldn't get otherwise, then they should do their best to preserve that novelty instead of spreading their culture and risk homogenizing the galaxy.
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Aug 29, 2020 23:01
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SlothfulCobra posted:The Prime Directive is really vague and inconsistent. Later on they say it means "no contact whatsoever" but then earlier it means "contact however you like, but just don't mess around" back when they were trying to kill Wesley. Hell, they've even occasionally used it as an excuse not to get involved in internal Klingon politics.
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Aug 29, 2020 23:13
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SlothfulCobra posted:The Prime Directive is really vague and inconsistent. Later on they say it means "no contact whatsoever" but then earlier it means "contact however you like, but just don't mess around" back when they were trying to kill Wesley. Also, despite "prime" being in the name, it's way down there in the list of priorities for every Star Trek captain. It's part of the Federation-paradox. You can't have "peace" and "unity" without homogenizing cultures to a certain extent. That obviously doesn't mean everyone has to behave the exact same way but you need some consensus on basic principles of how you organise your society. This obviously doesn't even start the discussion of whether or not "culture" has any inherent value. Is it "better" to have two different cultures than one? Does "more" matter in this context? Is there some sort of "quality" to culture? Isn't the concept of "culture" already misguided? Doesn't it restrict society to being static and something shouldn't be tempered with and has some sort of divine right not to be touched? etc.
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Aug 30, 2020 00:21
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In Star Trek Online the Prime Directive means 'we have an obligation to assist these warp-capable zombies in a war effort, because their culture is turning people into zombies and we can't let their culture die out'
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Aug 30, 2020 00:31
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ashpanash posted:In my mind, the Prime Directive was always kind of a compromise. Especially as presented in "First Contact" - the TNG episode, not the movie. It's basically, 'it's really best for everyone involved if we just stay the hell away from you until encountering us becomes absolutely inevitable.' That's why discovering warp drive was the demarcation point.  Warp travel should usually work relatively well as a demarcation point, because any society that can reliably produce warp vessels should (barring particularly stupid outliers like the Kazon) should also have the technological development to not end up inherently dependent on any other civilizations for basic necessities like food and energy production. This makes the Vulcan-Earth contact kind of a weird case, because you usually wouldn't expect literally the very first warp flight to be picked up on sensors by a ship coincidentally traveling nearby at exactly the right time. Normally it would take a while longer, by which time one would expect that kind of energy generation tech along with its other spinoffs to be more broadly distributed through society.
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Aug 30, 2020 00:44
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Didn't Enterprise establish that the Vulcans had been monitoring Earth for awhile?
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Aug 30, 2020 00:46
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FlamingLiberal posted:Didn't Enterprise establish that the Vulcans had been monitoring Earth for awhile?
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Aug 30, 2020 00:55
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CharlestheHammer posted:What’s funny is that the prime directive only makes sense in a we can’t decide who lives and dies but that only applies for who lives. If you let everyone die then your not making a choice but if you save everyone you are? Somehow? Most people will say there's a moral difference between not performing the Heimlich maneuver and actively choking a person to death with your hands. Sure, one is 'more passive', but you're saying they're morally equivalent? I like to think of the Prime Directive being the result of humanity taking a big old helping of humble pie and going: Well what the gently caress do we know anyway?
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Aug 30, 2020 00:56
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Animal-Mother posted:There's that one episode where this alien woman has people convinced she's the devil and the whole episode Picard refers to her as THAT WOMAN like he's a 17th century antagonist and she's trying to vote or have a job or something. I mean, she was an alien woman trying to get an entire planet to enslave themselves to her. So it's kind of understandable Picard wouldn't hold her in high regard, and his calling her 'that woman' is a way of refuting that she's some supernatural devil entity, that she's just a normal person like anybody else. But it does get kind of funny when he keeps doing it, yes.
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Aug 30, 2020 02:04
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it's about a woman's right to enslave a planet and if you have a problem with that you ARE the problem
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Aug 30, 2020 02:11
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Strong Convections posted:Here's a question though: do you make a judgement call on the people first? This isn't an ethically challenging problem, to be honest. TNG's version of the PD was pretty specifically about pre-warp civilizations that don't have contact with the rest of spacefaring society. When you intervene, you aren't making a decision that's going to have any immediate impact on anyone who doesn't live on the planet that you're saving. The timescales are just too large and there's just no way to know, so it's ethically dubious to do anything other than err on the side of preserving life. If you end up saving Space Hitlers then you didn't really do anything wrong or make an incorrect choice.
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Aug 30, 2020 03:40
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Strong Convections posted:It doesn't only apply to who lives - they don't go around murdering planets of "bad guys" either. Honestly yes? I hate that modern culture teaches you passivity absolves you of the effects it has.
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Aug 30, 2020 04:08
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Paradoxish posted:This isn't an ethically challenging problem, to be honest. Space-related disasters (suns exploding, asteroids)? Extreme volcanic activity that will wipe out civilisations? What about nuclear war that will leave the planet uninhabitable? Plague? Mass starvation? Ritualistic child murder? Surely educating them on farming techniques and away from sacrificing kids to bring the rain can only be a good thing? And educating them to do other things your way to preserve life is fine too? These are all 'easy' for you to solve. You're like a god to them and they are dependent on you. Leave it to each captain where the line is? Then you need to accept widely varying outcomes. CharlestheHammer posted:Honestly yes? I hate that modern culture teaches you passivity absolves you of the effects it has. There's billions of worlds out there - millions of causes of deaths, you going to fix them all? Or acknowledge that the universe is an unfair place, stop trying to have control over the whole thing, and try to build a system that helps people as best you can (the federation)?
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Aug 30, 2020 04:28
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Aug 30, 2020 04:38
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Strong Convections posted:Okay, you're interventionist - where's the line? There's a really clear dividing line on your list that starts right after "volcanic activity." Everything else requires directly intervening with a civilization's internal affairs. It's pretty straightforward to have a policy that says you do what you can to avert catastrophes when doing so isn't unduly risky and doesn't force you to reveal yourself to native populations or interact with them in any kind of meaningful way. But that's besides the point. The core of this is that you aren't morally responsible for bad things that someone else does just because you saved that person's life. The question of how much intervention is too much intervention is challenging and interesting. The question of whether or not it's okay to save a civilization that might turn out to be a bunch of Space Nazis isn't, really.
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Aug 30, 2020 04:38
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Paradoxish posted:There's a really clear dividing line on your list that starts right after "volcanic activity." Everything else requires directly intervening with a civilization's internal affairs. It's pretty straightforward to have a policy that says you do what you can to avert catastrophes when doing so isn't unduly risky and doesn't force you to reveal yourself to native populations or interact with them in any kind of meaningful way. Swap humans and dolphins with say, Earthians and advanced Martians (all pre-warp) - the Martians are gonna do something dumb and blow up the sun - does humanity get helped by a passing federation ship? I'm not saying they should or shouldn't, I'm saying there isn't an easy answer. Paradoxish posted:But that's besides the point. The core of this is that you aren't morally responsible for bad things that someone else does just because you saved that person's life. The question of how much intervention is too much intervention is challenging and interesting. The question of whether or not it's okay to save a civilization that might turn out to be a bunch of Space Nazis isn't, really. If you don't, and you're saving everyone (including space nazis), from that you might find there are unintended consequences - not least the crew may not feel so good about it. You've now started down the intervention road which, I agree is a challenging question. EDIT: I've said it before and I'll say it again: B'Elanna and Tom's relationship was incredibly toxic, and she'd have been better off hooking up with Vorik Strong Convections fucked around with this message at 05:31 on Aug 30, 2020 |
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Aug 30, 2020 05:18
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I really need to start re-watching Voyager to analyze it.
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Aug 30, 2020 06:43
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The drug planet episode pretty much demonstrates how fast and loose the whole thing is, as well as how the degree of inaction can be a conscious choice with intended consequences. Picard was perfectly willing to pick up some space hitchikers when their ship was exploding, and was even willing repair their ship and send them on their way. They didn't have warp, but whatever. It wasn't some paradigm-shifting level of assistance. But when he learned the whole thing where the dealer planet was exploiting the addict planet, he decided to intentionally withhold assistance (which would cause great physical suffering among the addicts as they struggle with their withdrawal) so that they could hopefully lose their dependency and have a fighting chance at freeing themselves from their parasites. There was also the implication that the reason why they couldn't manually cure all the addicts or synthesize more of the drug or tell them the truth was that would be too much meddling. Actively choosing one planet over another, invalidating the parasites' entire industry and culture all at once while making them a target for future retribution. Save a few people fine, patch up a starship fine, redefining an entire society no, allowing the decay that has already infested a society lead to its own demise fine.
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Aug 30, 2020 07:13
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I saw a cool idea for JJ Star Trek 4 the other day, which was to have a plot involving cooperating with the romulans and end up with Kirk becoming friends with the alt-Romluan-Commander from Balance of Terror. The "In a different reality, I could have called you friend." guy. Also there'd have to be a plot I guess MikeJF fucked around with this message at 08:02 on Aug 30, 2020 |
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Aug 30, 2020 07:51
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SlothfulCobra posted:The drug planet episode pretty much demonstrates how fast and loose the whole thing is, as well as how the degree of inaction can be a conscious choice with intended consequences. Picard was perfectly willing to pick up some space hitchikers when their ship was exploding, and was even willing repair their ship and send them on their way. They didn't have warp, but whatever. It wasn't some paradigm-shifting level of assistance. But when he learned the whole thing where the dealer planet was exploiting the addict planet, he decided to intentionally withhold assistance (which would cause great physical suffering among the addicts as they struggle with their withdrawal) so that they could hopefully lose their dependency and have a fighting chance at freeing themselves from their parasites. Picard drops off the last shipment of the drug on the addict planet, without telling them it's a drug and not a treatment for their disease, and without repairing the sole spaceship which both of their economies depend upon This is a perfect example of Picard choosing the worst possible option. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lQ1XIrXjls
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Aug 30, 2020 08:03
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MikeJF posted:I saw a cool idea for JJ Star Trek 4 the other day, which was to have a plot involving cooperating with the romulans and end up with Kirk becoming friends with the alt-Romluan-Commander from Balance of Terror. The "In a different reality, I could have called you friend." guy. Yeah, with that line it's almost tailor made for JJ Trek. Too bad Ben Cross died because having him play the role would have been 
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Aug 30, 2020 08:32
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its almost like she was trapped with a bunch of ineffective assholes its funny tho if you put her in TNG as a stand-in for worf she'd come across as the far more well rounded and diplomatic one probably lol
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Aug 30, 2020 12:20
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What would be a good B'elanna episode to watch?
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Aug 30, 2020 13:04
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END CHEMTRAILS NOW posted:What would be a good B'elanna episode to watch? Extreme Risk was pretty good.
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Aug 30, 2020 14:38
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zhElgEYMw8
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Aug 30, 2020 17:20
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJmXq5-b1Wo
Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 18:20 on Aug 30, 2020 |
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Aug 30, 2020 18:12
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Ok, that's the best one ever.
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Aug 30, 2020 18:52
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Aug 30, 2020 19:09
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That's how it really works on Klingon ships though
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Aug 30, 2020 19:23
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Censoring swears is without honor
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Aug 30, 2020 19:26
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Jeezy creezy Dorn is a treasure. And Frakes' loving reaction.
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Aug 30, 2020 19:51
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Aug 30, 2020 20:11
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I've never really seen TNG other than when it aired randomly or reruns, so I've been working my way though them. Everyone says Season 1 is not that great, but holy hell it has some hilarious moments:    No big deal, just hanging out in my private quarters watching some women play harps on the Hologram Space TV Harp Channel. The best episode so far is some computer repair guys tricking Riker and Picard into going on a date with a Holo-Girl so they could steal the Enterprise. How are you going to let your ship get lifted because you were at the holo bar? I hope that goes on their permanent space record.
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Aug 31, 2020 04:32
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Athanatos posted:The best episode so far is some computer repair guys tricking Riker and Picard into going on a date with a Holo-Girl so they could steal the Enterprise. How are you going to let your ship get lifted because you were at the holo bar? I hope that goes on their permanent space record. Yeah that's one of the good eps in S1.
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Aug 31, 2020 04:44
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Yeah it's definitely one I wouldn't recommend skipping which is maybe a third of that season
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Aug 31, 2020 04:46
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I really want to see the Bynars show up again someday. They look cool, they're a neat concept, and it'd be nice to contrast the Borg with a friendly cybernetic hive society.
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Aug 31, 2020 04:48
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Just  at the idea this was intentional.E: Oh, I misread it, never mind.
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Aug 31, 2020 14:50
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Just saw the gay Trill DS9 episode and was surprised they got away with that in the 90s, drat. I didn't realize all the psychic Trill hippies went to Bob Jones university.
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Aug 31, 2020 17:26
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