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marchantia
Nov 5, 2009

WHAT IS THIS
No one here posts about the very very good stuff involved in being a parent. This thread in particular is very complainy which is totally fine! Everyone needs a place to vent! But it's not an accurate description of parenthood, at least in my experience. Schedules are important but you just sort of find a rhythm for your family. I swear it's not rocket science. You'll do great!

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nwin
Feb 25, 2002

make's u think

Yeah I’m negative by nature and I vent to my wife, but with COVID and working from home, this is my only other place to vent and complain. Plus my wife is dealing with the same poo poo I do, so I don’t want to continue to bring her down all the time with my poo poo.

There’s lots of amazing things. He’s saying “hug” right now and randomly gives me a hug or a kiss and it’s amazing. His little fits of laughter are adorable. There’s plenty of great things that happen, but since this is my first kid and I was the youngest in my family I have no idea what to expect so the hard times can be really loving tough and confusing at times.

cowboy beepboop
Feb 24, 2001

remigious posted:

This thread is legit terrifying to read sometimes as someone expecting their first child. My big takeaway is stick to a schedule no matter what!

Yes, but not at first. Just roll with the newborn's needs. Some days they're going to feed 15 times and sleep 20 hours and some days they're going to barely be interesting in feeding or sleeping. We didn't worry too much about a 'routine' until about 6 months. even then it was only doing a bath, feed and then bed. naps were all over the place at all times :) the baby was going to sleep when the baby wanted to and there was nothing we could do about it

calandryll
Apr 25, 2003

Ask me where I do my best drinking!



Pillbug
Our daughter started doing the Naruto run this afternoon. Not sure where she learned it since I nor my wife have ever watched it. I'm assuming she saw one of the older kids at daycare doing it. It was quite amusing to see her run down the hallway.

BadSamaritan
May 2, 2008

crumb by crumb in this big black forest


Yeah, lil tiny babies absolutely just get their own rhythm. We found our kid actually settled into a night routine pretty easily from a fairly young age, and it’s held although the times have changed a bit. We still struggle with her waking up earlier than we’d like but ehhh.

Kiddo is trying to learn how to use a fork and it’s hilarious, plus she looks so happy when she manages to actually do it. It’s the little things :)

grenada
Apr 20, 2013
Relax.

calandryll posted:

Our daughter started doing the Naruto run this afternoon. Not sure where she learned it since I nor my wife have ever watched it. I'm assuming she saw one of the older kids at daycare doing it. It was quite amusing to see her run down the hallway.

My daughter did it too at around 18 months old. I'm sure she saw it at daycare somewhere, but I like to think that all kids do it and the show creator based on it on something they saw their kid do.

remigious
May 13, 2009

Destruction comes inevitably :rip:

Hell Gem
I didn’t mean to be a downer. I’m glad y’all have this space to vent and I look forward to joining you early next year :)

life is killing me
Oct 28, 2007

Is it actually normal around 2 to be so adamant that you get a certain parent (Mom) that you refuse to be consoled in the middle of the night but you don’t actually need anything? And you do it multiple times a week?

Just getting kind of old going in there and he just gets more pissed off and basically just forces Mom to come in. He woke up at 3 and was asleep ten minutes later with her, then he woke back up ten minutes after that even more pissed and my wife said he didn’t seem to need anything (yep, this is a frequent thing now). He was even more pissed the second time around and wanted nothing to do with me so she had to come in and take over.

I keep wondering when that stuff is going to wane. He knows drat well by now he doesn’t always get to choose what parent he gets; but it’s also getting insanely old to keep having to go in there night after night for literally nothing? Sleep already ain’t coming easy for me, I go in there frequently and I think he’s just wanting someone other than me but come on. Just sleep through the night for fucks sake

Thwomp
Apr 10, 2003

BA-DUHHH

Grimey Drawer
It’s 30 minutes into the first day of school over Zoom and I’m already over it. It’s gonna be a long school year.

Discussion Quorum
Dec 5, 2002
Armchair Philistine
My upstairs neighbors and their friends are having a good time. lovely club music, loud stomping, and WOOOOOs are coming through the ceiling and windows. It is after midnight on a Tuesday (e: Wednesday! :eng101:).

Mercifully my 1 year-old is sleeping through this so far, even though it would be just as loud in his room. I am having pre-emptive revenge fantasies. I have speakers, an amp, a mic, and maybe soon a wailing, inconsolable baby. I'll do it, motherfuckers.

(Not really, but only because it would probably scare my kid too)

TV Zombie
Sep 6, 2011

Burying all the trauma from past nights
Burying my anger in the past

We tried zoom art classes over the summer and it worked well except for the fact that we needed time and space to have the class which is hard with a younger sibling. I can't imagine what remote learning will be like when the classes are going to be longer and she'll need someone (me) to sit with her.

Renegret
May 26, 2007

THANK YOU FOR CALLING HELP DOG, INC.

YOUR POSITION IN THE QUEUE IS *pbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbt*


Cat Army Sworn Enemy

life is killing me posted:

Is it actually normal around 2 to be so adamant that you get a certain parent (Mom) that you refuse to be consoled in the middle of the night but you don’t actually need anything? And you do it multiple times a week?

Just getting kind of old going in there and he just gets more pissed off and basically just forces Mom to come in. He woke up at 3 and was asleep ten minutes later with her, then he woke back up ten minutes after that even more pissed and my wife said he didn’t seem to need anything (yep, this is a frequent thing now). He was even more pissed the second time around and wanted nothing to do with me so she had to come in and take over.

I keep wondering when that stuff is going to wane. He knows drat well by now he doesn’t always get to choose what parent he gets; but it’s also getting insanely old to keep having to go in there night after night for literally nothing? Sleep already ain’t coming easy for me, I go in there frequently and I think he’s just wanting someone other than me but come on. Just sleep through the night for fucks sake

My kid does the same thing. He's 19 months old and a gigantic motherfucker.

Daddy is for fun but mommy is for comfort. Which basically means mommy has to do everything except the fun stuff, which just makes me feel really guilty about the already uneven workload.

The one good thing about me switching to nights is that, since I'm already up, when he wakes up in the middle of the night and cries for his mommy, I have the time and energy to rock him back into submission. As a result, his sleep is slowly getting better. There's still crying involved, but he's starting to get that mommy's no longer an option, isn't fighting so hard, and is calming down and going back down for me faster.

Hippie Hedgehog
Feb 19, 2007

Ever cuddled a hedgehog?
OK, double bill amateur child psychologist bullshit advice incoming:

life is killing me posted:

Is it actually normal around 2 to be so adamant that you get a certain parent (Mom) that you refuse to be consoled in the middle of the night but you don’t actually need anything?
[...] my wife said he didn’t seem to need anything (yep, this is a frequent thing now).

Two questions in one, here. Yes it's normal that one parent gets to be the "important" parent (the comfort one). It really sucks to be the other parent, at times! In our family it's me (dad) who she absolutely needs for no reason and mommy won't do. I attribute it to me being on parental leave during some particularly formative month of her first year. It's been like this since she was 9 months or so, when I'd been on leave for three months. This can be extremely stressful on a relationship if it goes too far, so don't be afraid to talk to outsiders if you feel it threatens to poison the relationship between you as parents + spouses.

Other question, it's normal to have night time wake-ups "without needing anything". You're just making the (common) mistake of thinking that "wanting the physical comfort of a parent" is not, from a child's perspective, something reasonable to cry over at night. Lucky you, you get to lose lots of sleep to hug/comfort your kid at night for no apparent reason. If I may give some tough love: This is part of having children, and nothing good will ever come from withholding physical comfort in these situations. Some parents luck out and don't have this problem, which is not fair but you can't change it. You can't "convince" a 2-year-old of anything, you'll just have to ride it out. (I have heard of no "solution" to this problem that does not border on child abuse. Prove me wrong.)

On the plus side, this (like all annoying things about children) will pass eventually.

Renegret posted:

Daddy is for fun but mommy is for comfort. Which basically means mommy has to do everything except the fun stuff, which just makes me feel really guilty about the already uneven workload.

The one good thing about me switching to nights is that, since I'm already up, when he wakes up in the middle of the night and cries for his mommy, I have the time and energy to rock him back into submission. As a result, his sleep is slowly getting better. There's still crying involved, but he's starting to get that mommy's no longer an option, isn't fighting so hard, and is calming down and going back down for me faster.

See question one, above. You're clearly in the right mindset already, and making concrete progress towards solving your problem. By being the parent who shows up at night, you're letting him build his trust in you and strengthening your relationship.

Hippie Hedgehog fucked around with this message at 14:29 on Sep 2, 2020

life is killing me
Oct 28, 2007

Hippie Hedgehog posted:

OK, double bill amateur child psychologist bullshit advice incoming:


Two questions in one, here. Yes it's normal that one parent gets to be the "important" parent (the comfort one). It really sucks to be the other parent, at times! In our family it's me (dad) who she absolutely needs for no reason and mommy won't do. I attribute it to me being on parental leave during some particularly formative month of her first year. It's been like this since she was 9 months or so, when I'd been on leave for three months. This can be extremely stressful on a relationship if it goes too far, so don't be afraid to talk to outsiders if you feel it threatens to poison the relationship between you as parents + spouses.

Other question, it's normal to have night time wake-ups "without needing anything". You're just making the (common) mistake of thinking that "wanting the physical comfort of a parent" is not, from a child's perspective, something reasonable to cry over at night. Lucky you, you get to lose lots of sleep to hug/comfort your kid at night for no apparent reason. If I may give some tough love: This is part of having children, and nothing good will ever come from withholding physical comfort in these situations. Some parents luck out and don't have this problem, which is not fair but you can't change it. You can't "convince" a 2-year-old of anything, you'll just have to ride it out. (I have heard of no "solution" to this problem that does not border on child abuse. Prove me wrong.)

On the plus side, this (like all annoying things about children) will pass eventually.


See question one, above. You're clearly in the right mindset already, and making concrete progress towards solving your problem. By being the parent who shows up at night, you're letting him build his trust in you and strengthening your relationship.

Yeah I mean this is kind of the thing—I’m always the one in there. My wife has early mornings and sometimes late nights, so for many months I’m the primary parent who is designated as the first responder. Yes wake ups are going to happen and I get that—but when it’s every night there’s something else going on. We think he’s going through a regression and he also seems to be going through a cognitive milestone causing the regression or is a symptom of it. Lots more tantrums, battles of will, lots of changing his mind on the fly about what he wants. But yeah it’s usually me in there comforting him and I have him at home all day twice a week by myself while my wife works in the office so I am kind of the fun and sometimes comfort guy. I’m sure this is partly why he wants Mom frequently (he doesn’t get her as often as he or Mom would both like) and if he gets a boo boo or is scared he will run right past me and go to her. I get that. There’ve been many nights where I couldn’t console him and needed help, and felt guilt over this, but I’m starting to think I’m gonna need to let him cry it out until he gets that he got me and it’s time to go back to sleep.

And of course I don’t withhold comfort—typically we are “scoop ‘em up” and the idea is that if he’s having a tantrum or being challenging we cool it on the firm voices and just try to redirect and be understanding. At night I feel as though I’m very soothing and calm also—just wears you down after awhile. Lately it’s him that doesn’t want to be rocked, he just climbs back into bed as soon as he sees us but insists I remain near him, and he constantly checks to make sure I’m still there.

marchantia
Nov 5, 2009

WHAT IS THIS

Hippie Hedgehog posted:

I have heard of no "solution" to this problem that does not border on child abuse. Prove me wrong.

Oh hi, that's pretty inflammatory!

I think that there are definitely ways to try and encourage lack of dependence on one parent or the other for night wakings as well as learning to sleep independently at night that are not just leaving your child to cry. Sleep training methods are implemented mostly at bedtime but often help with the amount of night wakings as well. We still have night wakings with our kiddo but if it started to be every night, then I would want to consider options for schedule/bedtime changes as well as consider if I wanted to change up how respond to night wakings in general.

This study done (with admittedly younger kids) shows "both graduated extinction and bedtime fading provide significant sleep benefits above control, yet convey no adverse stress responses or long-term effects on parent-child attachment or child emotions and behavior."

Duke University's thoughts

I don't think sleep training is right for every family, clearly, nor does it eliminate all night wakings, but considering sleep habits and schedule can make a big difference in night wakings overall. The AAP supports sleep training and it's okay to disagree with that personally but to say it's basically child abuse when it's recommended as a safe and healthy option by medical professionals is some BS.

DaveSauce
Feb 15, 2004

Oh, how awkward.

Hippie Hedgehog posted:

(I have heard of no "solution" to this problem that does not border on child abuse. Prove me wrong.)

What? No, prove yourself right. This isn't some anti-vaxx mommy blog. You can't just make wild statements like, "letting your kid cry = child abuse" and claim to be infallible until someone proves you wrong. That's not how it works. The burden of proof is on you.

Going back to sleep without being comforted is a critical skill that kids need to develop and learn. No, you don't just throw them in bed, walk away, and ignore them until the morning. But you seem to be suggesting that you always need to immediately attend to a crying toddler at night, which is not accurate by any medically accepted science.

Hippie Hedgehog
Feb 19, 2007

Ever cuddled a hedgehog?

DaveSauce posted:

What? No, prove yourself right. This isn't some anti-vaxx mommy blog. You can't just make wild statements like, "letting your kid cry = child abuse" and claim to be infallible until someone proves you wrong. That's not how it works. The burden of proof is on you.

Going back to sleep without being comforted is a critical skill that kids need to develop and learn. No, you don't just throw them in bed, walk away, and ignore them until the morning. But you seem to be suggesting that you always need to immediately attend to a crying toddler at night, which is not accurate by any medically accepted science.

Hey, hey, calm down there, buddy. Put the gun down. No one's here to take your kids away.

OK, so that parenthesis you quoted was really unnecessary. It was not my intention to step on anyone's toes and I suck at not doing that apparently. But, can we please have different opinions on "sleep training" without escalating things this quickly? I think my initial disclaimer was pretty clear, this is amateur psychology bullshit time on a web forum.

I'm trying to give advice to the poster who asked, and so is marchantia who disagrees with me but does it in a civil way without straw men and offers constructive advice from their own viewpoint.

marchantia posted:

to say it's basically child abuse when it's recommended as a safe and healthy option by medical professionals is some BS.

As for that, the fact that sleep training is recommended by a safe and healthy option by some medical professionals (in the US) does not mean there are not a ton of other medical professionals (mostly not from the US) who disagree.

The study you linked to is interesting and looks good but as usual for a behavioral study, I'd like to see it replicated before I take it at face value.

For anyone hesitant, and interested in the body of evidence, that Duke piece you linked is good. NPR also did a piece that seems to cover it pretty well. Summary agrees with Duke: It's mostly not very well studied, scientifically.
I recommend reading the whole thing, it's full of good advice for how to think about it when choosing an approach and gives room for a little more nuance than the Duke piece which is more "just the facts, ma'm".
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2019/07/15/730339536/sleep-training-truths-what-science-can-and-cant-tell-us-about-crying-it-out

The strongest opinions I've read against sleep training has mostly not been from doctors (of medicine) but from developmental psychologists. Unfortunately for my argument, they are not as big on doing large, well designed, replicable studies as practitioners of physical medicine are. Hence you'll see a lot of science made by paediatricians and less by psychologists.

Hippie Hedgehog fucked around with this message at 22:33 on Sep 2, 2020

nachos
Jun 27, 2004

Wario Chalmers! WAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
"Prove me wrong" is not a civil way to approach this, so don't be surprised when you get heated disagreement. Especially when you come to the table with "well some medical professionals disagree" as your strongest argument.

How about: Promoting independent sleep in children leads to better sleep for them and better sleep for the parents, which leads to more attentive parenting and better outcomes for the child in the short and long run. Prove me wrong.

Levitate
Sep 30, 2005

randy newman voice

YOU'VE GOT A LAFRENIÈRE IN ME

Hippie Hedgehog posted:

Hey, hey, calm down there, buddy. Put the gun down. No one's here to take your kids away.

OK, so that parenthesis you quoted was really unnecessary. It was not my intention to step on anyone's toes and I suck at not doing that apparently. But, can we please have different opinions on "sleep training" without escalating things this quickly? I think my initial disclaimer was pretty clear, this is amateur psychology bullshit time on a web forum.

You don't get to say all this when you're the one who first said this

quote:

(I have heard of no "solution" to this problem that does not border on child abuse. Prove me wrong.)

You escalated things from the start by implying anyone who did not agree with you on this is bordering on abusing their child.

If it was just a throwaway line then maybe pick your words better in the future.

Arkanomen
May 6, 2007

All he wants is a hug
In tantrums always assess via HALT. Is the subject hungry, angry lonely or tired. If its not one of these four then its something to work on. Works on adults too.

Renegret
May 26, 2007

THANK YOU FOR CALLING HELP DOG, INC.

YOUR POSITION IN THE QUEUE IS *pbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbt*


Cat Army Sworn Enemy

Arkanomen posted:

In tantrums always assess via HALT. Is the subject hungry, angry lonely or tired. If its not one of these four then its something to work on. Works on adults too.

You can stop at H if it's me

priznat
Jul 7, 2009

Let's get drunk and kiss each other all night.

Arkanomen posted:

In tantrums always assess via HALT. Is the subject hungry, angry lonely or tired. If its not one of these four then its something to work on. Works on adults too.

& G for Gassy (also me)

Sarah
Apr 4, 2005

I'm watching you.

Renegret posted:

You can stop at H if it's me

just combine the H and A for me. I'm usually hangry.

DaveSauce
Feb 15, 2004

Oh, how awkward.

Hippie Hedgehog posted:

Hey, hey, calm down there, buddy. Put the gun down. No one's here to take your kids away.

OK, so that parenthesis you quoted was really unnecessary. It was not my intention to step on anyone's toes and I suck at not doing that apparently. But, can we please have different opinions on "sleep training" without escalating things this quickly? I think my initial disclaimer was pretty clear, this is amateur psychology bullshit time on a web forum.

You're allowed to have an opinion.

You're allowed to have civil conversation regarding said opinion.

You're allowed to give advice based on your opinion.

You're NOT allowed to liken the counter-opinion to child abuse, particularly when it's more well studied than you want to give it credit for. And you're especially not allowed to play victim after you've done that.

There are various popular methods of sleep training that have shown evidence of being effective, but none are perfect, nor are they all appropriate for any given situation. More importantly, none of the currently popular methods have shown any evidence of short- or long-term harm to the child. Your argument is not only wrong, but presented in the worst way possible.

in_cahoots
Sep 12, 2011
If someone is throwing a tantrum aren’t they angry by definition? I’ve never been sure how the A part is supposed to be helpful.

marchantia
Nov 5, 2009

WHAT IS THIS

Hippie Hedgehog posted:

Hey, hey, calm down there, buddy. Put the gun down. No one's here to take your kids away.

OK, so that parenthesis you quoted was really unnecessary. It was not my intention to step on anyone's toes and I suck at not doing that apparently.

Yes, it turns out accusing people you disagree with of being borderline child abusers is stepping on people's toes, who knew.

Just in case anyone wanted more sources now that I'm off work. I wish I still had access to pubmed because I remember a bunch locked behind the paywall, but here's what I'm able to find in a 10 min search for interested parties with less time on their hands:

Five-Year Follow-up on Harms and Benefits of Behavioral Infant Sleep Intervention: Randomized Trial

Sleep disruption and decline in marital satisfaction across the transition to parenthood.

Infant sleep at 10 months of age as a window to cognitive development


Developmental Psych Expert on Infant Sleep

As for counter points:
this website lists some well credentialed medical professionals against the practice of sleep training, and they give their reasons (some of which I feel have been disproven by research already linked). I'll also mention one provider talks about the ills of "depriving" a baby from breast milk and how it plays a foundation for the rise of SIDS and another is the developer of "wonder weeks" which has been mostly found to be pseudoscience...so ymmv.

La Leche League also breaks down some critiques of studies I've linked, but I believe some of them to have been addressed by future studies after this had been published. La Leche also promotes bed sharing which I personally cannot allow in my home so again, ymmv.

All that said, I honestly agree that this has become a hot button issue, but it really doesn't have to be imo. We all make the best decisions we can for our family, and what works for some won't work for all. Everyone is certainly allowed different opinions and to give different advice but to post calling people who disagree with you child abusers, defiantly asking to be proven wrong, and then playing the victim when called on it...sucks.

DaveSauce
Feb 15, 2004

Oh, how awkward.

marchantia posted:

All that said, I honestly agree that this has become a hot button issue, but it really doesn't have to be imo. We all make the best decisions we can for our family, and what works for some won't work for all. Everyone is certainly allowed different opinions and to give different advice but to post calling people who disagree with you child abusers, defiantly asking to be proven wrong, and then playing the victim when called on it...sucks.

It's only hot button because the Facebook Mommy Group Echo Chamber has decided that vaccines, day care, formula, and cry-it-out sleep training all qualify you for a call to CPS.

However the current science does not back this up.

To be sure, there are evidence-based methods for sleep training that do not involve cry-it-out. They are slower to take hold but are still effective.

But just because they exist does not mean that cry-it-out methods are therefore harmful. They sure as gently caress don't even remotely qualify as child abuse.

edit:

some points:

1) no single sleep training method is the best for all circumstances.
2) scientifically "proven" methods for drat near anything when we all were kids would probably warrant an unpleasant visit from CPS today. Yes, things change, but relying on current science is the best you can do.

DaveSauce fucked around with this message at 01:56 on Sep 3, 2020

Slimy Hog
Apr 22, 2008

DaveSauce posted:

It's only hot button because the Facebook Mommy Group Echo Chamber has decided that vaccines, day care, formula, and cry-it-out sleep training all qualify you for a call to CPS.

However the current science does not back this up.

To be sure, there are evidence-based methods for sleep training that do not involve cry-it-out. They are slower to take hold but are still effective.

But just because they exist does not mean that cry-it-out methods are therefore harmful. They sure as gently caress don't even remotely qualify as child abuse.

edit:

some points:

1) no single sleep training method is the best for all circumstances.
2) scientifically "proven" methods for drat near anything when we all were kids would probably warrant an unpleasant visit from CPS today. Yes, things change, but relying on current science is the best you can do.

Adding another point:

3) don't be an argumentative rear end in a top hat

life is killing me
Oct 28, 2007

Yikes, I missed all this.

I kinda knew the answer before I asked it, and I know every child is different. But I also know kids at this age are capable of light manipulation to get what they want and so I need to be clear in my assertion that this is probably what my son is doing (he’s good on all his needs). Occasionally he’s even gotten up immediately and asked about his paci once we walk in, only for us to find it in his bed and easily located. This is about him wanting is, not needing us. When it’s a want vs need, I don’t believe it is always healthy (nor does it constitute withholding of affection) to give a toddler what they want. It’s also much more difficult to actually fulfill either need or want at 0200 after bloodcurdling cry-wolf screams, when it happens night after night after night after night.

So it was a genuine question but also it was venting. I spend enough time beating myself to a pulp over the way I handled a situation with my son so while I didn’t say this earlier, I’ll say now that our reactions to our kid constantly waking up at night are far more nuanced than, “let them cry it out who cares,” and more along the lines of, “Let’s see if he goes back to sleep so we can remain sane and pleasant to be around for him tomorrow. If he doesn’t, we will go in and see what he needs.” If anything I think we rush in too often and too quickly if, during any given week, he wakes up every night for five days straight and needs nothing he doesn’t have three out of those five days.

FE: if the result of our rushing in too often is a clear, “Ok now I know if I scream long and hard enough I will obtain their quick presence,” then that isn’t always good. If nothing else, perhaps I/we (me and my wife) need to come to better terms with letting him get up and play and fall asleep on the floor (if this didn’t make so much goddamn noise over his monitor). But the point is, he definitely knows how to take a “I’m hurt or scared” scream and apply it to a want at this point.

Renegret
May 26, 2007

THANK YOU FOR CALLING HELP DOG, INC.

YOUR POSITION IN THE QUEUE IS *pbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbt*


Cat Army Sworn Enemy

marchantia posted:

La Leche League also breaks down some critiques of studies I've linked, but I believe some of them to have been addressed by future studies after this had been published. La Leche also promotes bed sharing which I personally cannot allow in my home so again, ymmv.

I've gotten good mileage over doing the opposite of whatever La Leche says.

Renegret
May 26, 2007

THANK YOU FOR CALLING HELP DOG, INC.

YOUR POSITION IN THE QUEUE IS *pbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbt*


Cat Army Sworn Enemy

life is killing me posted:

But the point is, he definitely knows how to take a “I’m hurt or scared” scream and apply it to a want at this point.

Ours started doing the same thing. He goes beyond yelling and starts screeching and screaming in anger. It's something that pisses me off real bad and it's The Thing that will make me loose my poo poo instantly. Of course, he also learned that he can be impossible to carry when he lets his limbs go all noodly and limp, which is the thing that makes my wife lose her poo poo insantly. She calls it jelly legs.

Man, not even 2 yet and he's testing both of our patience real bad. Toddlers are assholes. There's a reason why daycare has such high turnover of toddler teachers.

Renegret
May 26, 2007

THANK YOU FOR CALLING HELP DOG, INC.

YOUR POSITION IN THE QUEUE IS *pbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbt*


Cat Army Sworn Enemy

DaveSauce posted:

It's only hot button because the Facebook Mommy Group Echo Chamber has decided that vaccines, day care, formula, and cry-it-out sleep training all qualify you for a call to CPS.

One day, one of these groups implanted the idea that washing our kid's penis is sexual assault and it took me far too long to finally get her to calm down and accept that he should have a clean dick. I'm going to do it every day until the day that he's old enough to do it himself.

Facebook mommy groups can be real dangerous.

DaveSauce
Feb 15, 2004

Oh, how awkward.

life is killing me posted:

But the point is, he definitely knows how to take a “I’m hurt or scared” scream and apply it to a want at this point.

Ours learned that "Mommy, I have to go potty!" got an instant reaction from us, as we were potty training at the time. Yeah.

To Hippy's point, they're not being malicious. They're learning that they can exert control over the outside world. This is a good thing, developmentally speaking, but challenging as hell for a parent.

Renegret posted:

Ours started doing the same thing. He goes beyond yelling and starts screeching and screaming in anger. It's something that pisses me off real bad and it's The Thing that will make me loose my poo poo instantly. Of course, he also learned that he can be impossible to carry when he lets his limbs go all noodly and limp, which is the thing that makes my wife lose her poo poo insantly. She calls it jelly legs.

Man, not even 2 yet and he's testing both of our patience real bad. Toddlers are assholes. There's a reason why daycare has such high turnover of toddler teachers.

Once, pre-Covid, I went to pick up my daughter from day care. She was around 2 I think. Maybe a tad older? Maybe younger. I can't loving remember.

I walked to the room she had been consolidated to (late in the day, so it was an older room) and nobody was there, so I assumed they were in the attached playground.

I opened the door and was met by kid laying prostrate on the grass, screaming and crying her head off in a massive tantrum. Not my problem, so I went to try to find my daughter, who was on a small play set going down a slide.

Happened to walk by my daughter's teacher, and I overheard her talking to another person (parent? teacher? I dunno), saying, "See?! This is why I refuse to do 3-year-olds!"

Toddlers are goddamn terrorists, and if the Geneva Convention applied to them they'd all be in jail.

life is killing me
Oct 28, 2007

Renegret posted:

Ours started doing the same thing. He goes beyond yelling and starts screeching and screaming in anger. It's something that pisses me off real bad and it's The Thing that will make me loose my poo poo instantly. Of course, he also learned that he can be impossible to carry when he lets his limbs go all noodly and limp, which is the thing that makes my wife lose her poo poo insantly. She calls it jelly legs.

Man, not even 2 yet and he's testing both of our patience real bad. Toddlers are assholes. There's a reason why daycare has such high turnover of toddler teachers.

Yes they still do all these things after 2, can confirm.

My son does the first thing and then when he doesn’t get the parent he wants (usually Mom) he goes limp to avoid being picked up. When he is picked up in spite of this he literally attempts to jump out of my arms.

Mostly I take issue with the manipulation that he knows will cause us to get up in the middle of the night. Can’t do that poo poo forever and be a pleasant person. I get so wound up about it because I know this loving kid knows how to put himself to sleep initially and back to sleep and thus I know that when he doesn’t, it’s because he won’t.

marchantia
Nov 5, 2009

WHAT IS THIS

DaveSauce posted:

It's only hot button because the Facebook Mommy Group Echo Chamber has decided that vaccines, day care, formula, and cry-it-out sleep training all qualify you for a call to CPS.

To be fair to HH, if I remember correctly they have been pro formula and pro vaxx in this thread so I don't think throwing them completely under the FB echo chamber bus is appropriate.

DaveSauce
Feb 15, 2004

Oh, how awkward.

marchantia posted:

To be fair to HH, if I remember correctly they have been pro formula and pro vaxx in this thread so I don't think throwing them completely under the FB echo chamber bus is appropriate.

Eh, my run-ins with HH have been less-than-stellar, and every time I see a post it seems to be running contrary to current science. Maybe not fringe-level stuff, but certainly on the side of "if you're not a stay at home parent who trusts your gut before a highly-educated expert then why are you even having kids" sort of stuff. But that could be selective bias. I'm not going to pretend that I've read each of their posts ITT, so I'm not going to hang my hat on it.

But that's not really the point. Regardless of HH's other opinions, from what I've seen in our own research of sleep training, the anti cry-it-out philosophy appears to have roots in, "how dare you let your little angel cry you monster." Again, there is little to no scientific evidence that it is harmful, yet the idea persists that if you let your child cry for longer than it takes to get to them, then you are doing irreparable psychological harm to them and you should be thrown in jail.

Tamarillo
Aug 6, 2009

Renegret posted:

One day, one of these groups implanted the idea that washing our kid's penis is sexual assault and it took me far too long to finally get her to calm down and accept that he should have a clean dick. I'm going to do it every day until the day that he's old enough to do it himself.

Facebook mommy groups can be real dangerous.

Well that's horrific. Body hygiene is top priority in our house, ain't no one got time for swamp rear end. When we're in the shower I talk our kid through how we are washing each body part including genitals. I feel like at worst we are going to predispose him to cleanliness OCD tendencies rather than a haunting history of daily assault.

Sarah
Apr 4, 2005

I'm watching you.

life is killing me posted:

Yikes, I missed all this.

I kinda knew the answer before I asked it, and I know every child is different. But I also know kids at this age are capable of light manipulation to get what they want and so I need to be clear in my assertion that this is probably what my son is doing (he’s good on all his needs). Occasionally he’s even gotten up immediately and asked about his paci once we walk in, only for us to find it in his bed and easily located. This is about him wanting is, not needing us. When it’s a want vs need, I don’t believe it is always healthy (nor does it constitute withholding of affection) to give a toddler what they want. It’s also much more difficult to actually fulfill either need or want at 0200 after bloodcurdling cry-wolf screams, when it happens night after night after night after night.

So it was a genuine question but also it was venting. I spend enough time beating myself to a pulp over the way I handled a situation with my son so while I didn’t say this earlier, I’ll say now that our reactions to our kid constantly waking up at night are far more nuanced than, “let them cry it out who cares,” and more along the lines of, “Let’s see if he goes back to sleep so we can remain sane and pleasant to be around for him tomorrow. If he doesn’t, we will go in and see what he needs.” If anything I think we rush in too often and too quickly if, during any given week, he wakes up every night for five days straight and needs nothing he doesn’t have three out of those five days.

FE: if the result of our rushing in too often is a clear, “Ok now I know if I scream long and hard enough I will obtain their quick presence,” then that isn’t always good. If nothing else, perhaps I/we (me and my wife) need to come to better terms with letting him get up and play and fall asleep on the floor (if this didn’t make so much goddamn noise over his monitor). But the point is, he definitely knows how to take a “I’m hurt or scared” scream and apply it to a want at this point.

One thing that helped me a lot was putting a camera in my daughters room. When she cries out now I look at her to see what her body language is. If she's still laying down I just sit and watch her. If she is crying while she's up I get up. I've learned through watching her that when she first cries out while she's still laying down she's waiting to hear me walking. When she hears me walking she will pop up. If I don't get up and just watch her laying there, she stops grumbling and goes back to sleep. Being able to see her when she has no clue is a huge advantage.

life is killing me
Oct 28, 2007

Sarah posted:

One thing that helped me a lot was putting a camera in my daughters room. When she cries out now I look at her to see what her body language is. If she's still laying down I just sit and watch her. If she is crying while she's up I get up. I've learned through watching her that when she first cries out while she's still laying down she's waiting to hear me walking. When she hears me walking she will pop up. If I don't get up and just watch her laying there, she stops grumbling and goes back to sleep. Being able to see her when she has no clue is a huge advantage.

We used to do this. He doesn’t seem to ever stop though. Even in bed. He is very stubborn!

We have a camera monitor (in fact we just got a new one to replace the garbage vtech one we had) and that works. I don’t know maybe we just usually fail to out-wait him. He can cry and scream for a loooong time, and he’s really committed to selling distress. The other night he screamed so loud and for so long he was almost hyperventilating. I did go in there eventually, fearing he was really needing us or that he’d get up and start to play and it’d take forever to get him back down or he just would refuse altogether.

He didn’t need poo poo. He got right back into bed when he saw me and stopped crying immediately.

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devmd01
Mar 7, 2006

Elektronik
Supersonik
Had a good conversation with my six year old this morning, my continuing talk about firearm safety is paying off. She understands the rule for her right now if she finds one is don’t touch and find an adult right away.

She also knows that I have guns of course and that they are all locked up for everyone’s safety. Additionally, we don’t talk about daddy’s guns with anyone.

Whether you approve of firearms or not, it’s still important to have those conversations at an appropriate age with your kids so they can handle a situation appropriately.

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