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Some guy wrote about Disco Elysium in VICE and... kind of missed the point imo? 'Disco Elysium' Was Too Afraid of Sincerity to Be Revolutionary https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/7kpjzq/disco-elysium-was-too-afraid-of-sincerity-to-be-revolutionary Like he clearly engaged with the game on a fairly deep level but somehow mistook all the humour and self-awareness as irony and insincerity? It's really hard to pinpoint where he went wrong in my eyes but I just don't know how you can leave this game thinking it is insincere and hopeless. fake edit: all readings are valid actual edit: spoilers in the article do not read if you haven't finished the game Au Revoir Shosanna fucked around with this message at 22:57 on Sep 2, 2020 |
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Sep 2, 2020 22:48
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It seems like the whole thing is based on a negative reaction to the phasmid scene, thinking that putting the pro-communism fervor in its mouth is a copout because then the game doesn't have to commit to it being real, but, like... it seems way easier to argue that's the whole point, you're never getting that kind of confirmation, you have to believe in something.
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Sep 2, 2020 23:12
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Au Revoir Shosanna posted:Some guy wrote about Disco Elysium in VICE and... kind of missed the point imo? did this guy not see the whole "Failure. [Communism] is about failure." part and its brutal sincerity about the futility struggling against impossible odds, yet doing it anyway? utopia is eternally on the horizon no matter how long you walk, but you walk anyway, that sort of thing. he definitely misread the ending scene where ptolemy pryce and nix gottlieb are reviewing who they can count on in the coming uprising, considering that line about how "enduring change" is "localized." actually, now that I think about it, this kind of reads like the flipside of those early reviews complaining that you can't fix cuno's speed habit or convince measurehead to give up racism or whatever. he did his best to make an optimistic communist cop, and it feels like he expected the game to reward him with pats on the head and compliments about how good his choices were and how what he did is gonna help fix revachol. acknowledging difficulties and imperfections feels just like when kreia was mean to me 
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Sep 2, 2020 23:12
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Calling the phasmid encounter "the only vulnerable moment in the game" is pretty crazy
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Sep 2, 2020 23:22
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rideANDxORdie posted:Calling the phasmid encounter "the only vulnerable moment in the game" is pretty crazy The whole game is incredibly raw and sincere. The author just mistook somber and mournful yet hopeful to be ironic detachment.
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Sep 2, 2020 23:24
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World War Mammories posted:did this guy not see the whole "Failure. [Communism] is about failure." part and its brutal sincerity about the futility struggling against impossible odds, yet doing it anyway? utopia is eternally on the horizon no matter how long you walk, but you walk anyway, that sort of thing. he definitely misread the ending scene where ptolemy pryce and nix gottlieb are reviewing who they can count on in the coming uprising, considering that line about how "enduring change" is "localized." He noted that spoiler on twitter but said he wrote that plotline off because cops.
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Sep 2, 2020 23:24
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I never thought I'd see someone get so high off their own farts and personal irony poisoning that they missed the point when it was dangled right in front of their face, but here we are.
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Sep 2, 2020 23:47
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Motto posted:He noted that spoiler on twitter but said he wrote that plotline off because cops. 
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Sep 2, 2020 23:54
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Some people don't seem to get that something can be *both* funny/ironic/cynical AND sincere and raw at the same time. It's interesting that these people can somehow become Vice writers, writing media analysis articles no less. Also, there's a bit in there where the author somewhat dismissevly calls the church kids' music-related activities "hobbies". Maybe I'm wrong here but that's not how it seemed to me. I read that whole arc as a very poigant commentary on the topic of "following one's dream" (this theme crops up all over the place) - and it felt precisely like the kind of sincerity the author of the article was looking for and doesn't seem to notice for some reason. nurmie fucked around with this message at 00:08 on Sep 3, 2020 |
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Sep 3, 2020 00:04
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I think the tone of the game just works better for some people than others, and that's okay. I definitely found it very sincere for the most part. Early on it feels like it's going to be very cynical and irony-poisoned, but after the first day or so it really calms down and settles into a very different mood, which is sustains for the rest of the game. Tone is something really tricky to made declarative statements around, though, and it's totally valid for someone else to have a different experience of the game. That author also mentioned on twitter that he hates how confrontational the headline ended up, he wanted something more nuanced but they need it like that to drive traffic  https://twitter.com/spacetwinks/status/1301184912653983745
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Sep 3, 2020 00:16
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Begemot posted:I think the tone of the game just works better for some people than others, and that's okay. I definitely found it very sincere for the most part. Early on it feels like it's going to be very cynical and irony-poisoned, but after the first day or so it really calms down and settles into a very different mood, which is sustains for the rest of the game. The headline has nothing to do with the content of the article being kind of stupid and poorly thought through. I like colin but he's got a really....consistent habit of missing the forest for the trees any time anyone pushes back on anything he says (See the "JUST UNIONIZE" spat a few weeks back)
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Sep 3, 2020 00:34
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Yeah it's definitely a weird article. The author gets so close to understanding the game multiple times before veering off into completely wrong conclusions. It feels like the author didn't fully understand that you are playing a pre-established character when they talk about the skill dialogue and thought cabinet descriptions. They seem to think that the dialogue is the game's author directly talking to the player rather than something filtered through harry's mind. They also seemed unhappy that there is no real victory in the end where you go off to build a more hopeful, communist future which kind of misses the point that capital already won. This game takes place in the aftermath of that victory and is about how people are coping with it. This isn't some grand adventure about taking down the moralintern; it's about people finding hope in a hopeless world and how we must always strive towards a better future so that we don't give into despair.
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Sep 3, 2020 00:38
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:The headline has nothing to do with the content of the article being kind of stupid and poorly thought through. I like colin but he's got a really....consistent habit of missing the forest for the trees any time anyone pushes back on anything he says (See the "JUST UNIONIZE" spat a few weeks back) Yeah he definitely has a bad habit of latching onto a read and not letting go of it. He also basically came into this game expecting to hate it and have a million contrarian takes, so the fact that he ended up liking it a lot says something.
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Sep 3, 2020 00:38
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Judging by the last couple of paragraphs it seems like he didn't have enough Esprit de Corps to get the hints that something big is going to go off in Revachol, which fair enough. But it still feels like there's a massive disconnect between the writers feelings and my own experience on both the Phasmid scene and the broader discussion on sincerity. Brushing off the HARDCORE kids in a single sentence feels especially brash; you have a bunch of characters set up to be easy targets of contempt, and their aim of setting up a nightclub/druglab isn't exactly a noble commitment. But the game goes to great lengths to demonstrate their enthusiasm for dance music as incredibly worthwhile, to the point that its helping to save Revachol, if only in a small way Like, Disco Elysium has a rather large questline in which youth music is helping to save the world. I dunno what's more could be more sincere then that. Vagabong fucked around with this message at 00:57 on Sep 3, 2020 |
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Sep 3, 2020 00:53
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Also, unlike the dead end that is Mazovian Socio-Economics, getting an Actual Art Degree is one of the best ways to powerlevel? Conceptualization may not have a whole lot of use in advancing the progression of the mystery, but in a game about trying to rebuild yourself out of oblivion, it puts in some work. None of the political thoughts are real winners in your thought cabinet, but it's interesting to look at why. Fascism just makes you a meaner drunk as you frantically try to avoid saying any of the things you supposedly actually believe. Communism would eventually pay off, but in the time you have it's just a liability. Ultraliberalism makes you a little bit more out of touch but it does also get you money, and money's useful for solving all kinds of problems, like getting yourself pants that actually fit. Moralism is maybe actually the best of them, in that it's missing downsides and provides room for you to grow into better thinking about the world and holding yourself together? In terms of actual bonuses though, they don't stand up to the thoughts that are more personally relevant to Harry - having enough Conceptualization to remember a moment from your past that connected you to the world, or enough Logic to get an insight from the dance club that's saving Revachol, or resolving to actually go sober and get one step closer to how normal people are all the time.
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Sep 3, 2020 05:24
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JustaDamnFool posted:rushing off the HARDCORE kids in a single sentence feels especially brash; you have a bunch of characters set up to be easy targets of contempt, and their aim of setting up a nightclub/druglab isn't exactly a noble commitment. But the game goes to great lengths to demonstrate their enthusiasm for dance music as incredibly worthwhile, to the point that its helping to save Revachol, if only in a small way Doesn't Shivers suggest that the dance club is doomed to failure no matter what?
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Sep 3, 2020 05:41
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the moralist thought is very, very ominous and grim. ZA/UM delivers downright painful communist critique (it is the most scrutinized ideology in the game after all), goes hard after the fash, doesn't hold back with the liberals; but they hold the moralists in utter contempt. The Sunday Friend is the only character who has intentional typos to further emphasize how much of a dumbass figure when he talks about anything other than the investigation, because:Problem posted:Heartache is powerful, but democracy is *subtle*. Incrementally, you begin to notice a change in the weather. When it snows, the flakes are softer when they stick to your worry-worn forehead. When it rains, the rain is warmer. Democracy is coming to the Administrative Region. The ideals of Dolorian humanism are reinstating themselves. How can they not? These are the ideals of the Coalition and the Moralist International. Those guys are signal blue. And they're not only good -- they're also powerful. What will it be like, once their nuanced plans have been realized? Solution posted:The Kingdom of Conscience will be exactly as it is now. Moralists don't really *have* beliefs. Sometimes they stumble on one, like on a child's toy left on the carpet. The toy must be put away immediately. And the child reprimanded. Centrism isn't change -- not even incremental change. It is *control*. Over yourself and the world. Exercise it. Look up at the sky, at the dark shapes of Coalition airships hanging there. Ask yourself: is there something sinister in moralism? And then answer: no. God is in his heaven. Everything is normal on Earth. and yes, a major point is how Art is very important and extremely necessary to life, given that it is perhaps being the only human aspect that actually beats back and conquers the Pale, as the Insulindian Miracle describes and what Revachol herself tells you in the church therefore Art Cop is the opposite of Apocalypse Cop and Conceptualization becomes very important lol
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Sep 3, 2020 05:57
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Artpocalypse Cop
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Sep 3, 2020 06:12
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So I’ve been staring at the Kim portrait. First off I think the iconography commentary earlier in the thread is spot on. I mean that’s a thing is in Estonia you can buy orthodox icons, real ones, old ones. I mean I have (though it was almost twenty years ago now). That was absolutely intentional. But separate from that look at Kim. I mean look. If one were to list all the horrid racial characteristics from like a Dr. Seuss war cartoon like this one:  I mean they have made his portrait have many of those stereotypes. Stereotypes that most of us have been conditioned by images like the above to have in our heads and to dislike. But Kim is just the best. Everybody that plays this loves Kim. I can’t fathom playing this game and treating Kim poorly. I have to conclude that the breaking, shattering, of those racist stereotypes is intentional. It is really impressive.
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Sep 3, 2020 06:18
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Other than the round rim glasses there aren't any other similarities.
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Sep 3, 2020 06:36
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dead gay comedy forums posted:the moralist thought is very, very ominous and grim. Absolutely! But, on another level, the Coalition can blow you up from the sky if they want, and what are you going to do about that? It's not fair and it's not right but all that makes you is a righteous and maligned corpse. Kim's not, like, a hardcore Moralist who sees the world as an undifferentiated haze of macroeconomic statistics, but he probably has Kingdom of Conscience in his thought cabinet. Not only is he not currently a total wreck of a human being, but one of his primary contributions to the investigation is drawing logical connections, and there are several cases where you can throw yourself at a Logic check, fail, and have Kim pick up your failed line of thought and keep going. It's a grim thought driving people who can change the fate of nations, but if you want to solve the problems of the people in front of you, might as well just tuck Moralism away in your brain and keep on going.
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Sep 3, 2020 06:45
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Has anyone done a maximum alcoholic/piss-Kim-off/rear end in a top hat cop? I can’t bring myself to do it, but want to play the game again.
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Sep 3, 2020 06:57
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I've tried, twice, and it's hurt too much to go very far.
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Sep 3, 2020 07:53
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RudeCat posted:I've tried, twice, and it's hurt too much to go very far. I've played through Undertale's genocide route and was glad to have seen it. I murdered my friends and even all the cute dogs, and kept on going. But I am never even attempting to make Kim mad at me.
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Sep 3, 2020 08:10
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JustaDamnFool posted:Brushing off the HARDCORE kids in a single sentence feels especially brash; you have a bunch of characters set up to be easy targets of contempt, and their aim of setting up a nightclub/druglab isn't exactly a noble commitment. But the game goes to great lengths to demonstrate their enthusiasm for dance music as incredibly worthwhile, to the point that its helping to save Revachol, if only in a small way a lot of players seem rather dim in this regard - I’ve seen several on Reddit complain that they ran out of things to do because they arrested the kids straight away. After all, they’re just druggie kids and the lady in the church wants them out of the way, and I’m a cop! Surely the author’s whole thought pattern in positing some activities as meaningless “hobbies” - where “hobby” usually means “something you do that isn’t paid work” - is a capitalist positioning of things in the first place. Equally stupid is the amount of people who manage to form the two thoughts “Cops are bad” and “Evrart is mean to me, a cop” but never put two and two together, they just keep on hating Evrart
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Sep 3, 2020 08:20
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The piece has some valid points imo, but you can really tell that he chose the angle even before playing the game https://twitter.com/spacetwinks/status/1185535341261983744
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Sep 3, 2020 08:47
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A games journalist completely misses the point because he's up his own rear end? Nooooo, that never happens.
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Sep 3, 2020 09:51
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I mean, Disco Elysium is only a John Wick, not a Schindler's List after all. EDIT : Add joking emoji here for clarity. Something I find kind of telling about DE (and got that feels weird to say in this context after playing too much warframe) is how it feels relatively content to actually not be too crazy at times. It accepts a lot of limitations and railroading in the main plot to tell a strong story it wants to. On the run up I heard descriptions that made it sound like you could explore the sewers as a hobocop instead of actually investigating the murder (someday, cocaine skull, someday) and I'm pretty sure some of that scope is stuff they wanted. But they were willing to cut it and make something great. Or again, within the time frame of the game your political thoughts say a lot about you, but might not change much. Still wish we could have rolled with Lena for a bit. Also need to see if I can find my endgame save of my first high Motorics, hustler run. See what our lanky endgame pal has to say about our problems with women. I don't recall seeing the working class line. But so many people seem to think it's important?
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Sep 3, 2020 09:59
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Were you a communist?
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Sep 3, 2020 10:20
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chaosapiant posted:Has anyone done a maximum alcoholic/piss-Kim-off/rear end in a top hat cop? I can’t bring myself to do it, but want to play the game again. I did it once and the achievement popped early on the first day so I just restarted as an alcoholic dumbass who was best friends with Kim instead.
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Sep 3, 2020 10:25
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chaosapiant posted:Has anyone done a maximum alcoholic/piss-Kim-off/rear end in a top hat cop? I can’t bring myself to do it, but want to play the game again. If you do a lot of speed and anti-radiation drugs you get to have a pretty great conversation with Kim about whether they actually make you a super-cop. dead gay comedy forums posted:therefore Art Cop is the opposite of Apocalypse Cop and Conceptualization becomes very important lol Disco Elysium is a game that loves art, especially as a means for truly expressing the self, and I do think that attitude filters into the games politics in a way thay could come across as intensly sceptical if you don't buy into its belief in hope. Communism is often portrayed in incredibly romantic terms; it's 'girl-child revolution', it's Joyce's pining to have been alive during the momentous turn of the century, it's one of the games striking final images that often gets overlooked: the massive graffiti stating "ONE DAY I WILL RETURN TO YOUR SIDE" The other ideologies don't get much of a look-in on this front; Moralism especially is the cool expression of rationality, and the Wompty-Dompty Dom Centre is the only art that receives nothing but bile. This romantic attitude can be taken both ways. If you think Elysium is the cynics game, then Left-wing politics are the romantic but unachievable utopian notions that enchant wide-eyed idealists with a false hope that leads to countless atrocities. However, if you believe in the game's sincerity it becomes a much more positive depiction. Just like the rest of the game's art, Communism becomes another opportunity for honest self expression and human connection, the work towards a radically different society a worthwhile and meaningful act even if it fails.
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Sep 3, 2020 10:26
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Cnidaria posted:Yeah it's definitely a weird article. The author gets so close to understanding the game multiple times before veering off into completely wrong conclusions. To be honest its not far-fetched idea to get from just one playtrough that the game has diverting story which evolves as you play, and not that you are going on story and the question isn't what story unfolds but how and what parts of it unfold.
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Sep 3, 2020 10:38
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chaosapiant posted:Has anyone done a maximum alcoholic/piss-Kim-off/rear end in a top hat cop? I can’t bring myself to do it, but want to play the game again.
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Sep 3, 2020 11:20
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Au Revoir Shosanna posted:Some guy wrote about Disco Elysium in VICE and... kind of missed the point imo? That's rich coming from VICE. side_burned fucked around with this message at 11:33 on Sep 3, 2020 |
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Sep 3, 2020 11:29
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Same thing's been said about a lot of critics on Disco Elysium: it holds up a mirror to them and they don't like what they see.
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Sep 3, 2020 11:41
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Evidently they never invested into Rigorous Self-Critique.
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Sep 3, 2020 12:52
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Samovar posted:Evidently they never invested into Rigorous Self-Critique. It's not a useful thought if you never fail at anything important! Wait, I think I see a flaw in that. :P
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Sep 3, 2020 13:14
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game is incredible, better than i had even expected (and i had expected a lot) also the writers are definitely very Online, since Measurehead's dialogue is basically a cross between Bronze Age Pervert and Hakan Rotmwrt, two extremely esoteric alt-right dudes
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Sep 3, 2020 13:38
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There’s probably a big cultural difference in what sincerity looks like to the author vs the game studio based in the UK. By and large non-Americans just do not do the kind of sincerity the author wants. I gather he sees sincerity as, basically, ‘just liking things’. The game is not sincere because it doesn’t uncomplicatedly ‘like’ communism. But by framing it as the writers not being able to “resist a reflexive urge to ‘balance’ this by piping up to comment “This is stupid and pointless, isn’t it?””, they admit that the urge is in fact there - so surely the sincere thing to do is not to resist it? I also think he really screws up with his thoughts about the phasmid. Surely it’s there to show that yes, this creature is uncomplicated and ‘sincere’ and unthinking, but that’s NOT the point of life. Humans, not giant bugs, are the miracle.
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Sep 3, 2020 13:38
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DE definitely feels uniquely European in the same way that Fallout (at least 1, 2, and NV) is uniquely American, at least to my simple yankee brain.
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Sep 3, 2020 13:47
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