|
site posted:Well if he was just Peter he could be running a billion dollar tech lab that could advance mankind but he's too busy punching doc Ock again Spiderman is not a gentrifier. Uncle Ben taught him better than that.
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2020 20:22
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 2, 2024 00:18 |
|
|
Is that why he pissed away Parker labs, as a tribute to uncle Ben Couldn't he have used his fortune to buy up property and maintain low rents because how tough it is when you're poor
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2020 20:34
|
|
|
Also, Gotham is basically Batman's. No one would expect Spider-Man to eradicate crime in New York by himself when from day 1 he's never been the only hero in the city.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2020 20:50
|
|
|
site posted:Is that why he pissed away Parker labs, as a tribute to uncle Ben He had to invest in making a prison, because the problem with America is that there aren't enough people in prison. Generally I've come to feel like the worst part of superhero stories is where they're fighting common streetcrime, both because there's a lack of interpersonal drama and because the fear of crime like that is sort of a classist fantasy. At the very least it's better when they're taking down organized crime because then it's a larger threat than just some poor schlub with a gun. I think the fantasy of superheroes might've also been born of the power of organized crime and relative impotence of the police.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2020 21:09
|
|
|
FilthyImp posted:I don't think he's done goofy-almost-mid-atlantic Bruceman since, like, World's Finest. He did it in Injustice 2, I was shocked
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2020 22:45
|
|
|
Spider-Man's out there fighting tech bros or wealthy crime bosses while a lotta Batman villains get coded as mentally ill. It makes beating the brakes off them weekly look a lot worse.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2020 22:59
|
|
|
The only reason they get classified as mentally ill is so the writers don't have to explain why the Joker hasn't gotten the death penalty yet. Plus the idea that an asylum is easier to escape from than a prison.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2020 23:04
|
|
|
Gotta say, I think that makes it worse!
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2020 23:14
|
|
|
Honestly, at this point should make Gotham be like New York state and have the death penalty abolished Hell make it a big comic event thing.
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2020 23:24
|
|
|
Or better yet dial things back to Batman 66 levels so most of the villains are essentially harmless
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2020 23:31
|
|
|
SlothfulCobra posted:
But that's the thing. Like as much as we act like Batman is this Titan on Earth who could fix Gotham if he really wanted to, he just clearly loves punching the poor too much to do that, it's not the case. He's a human. A well trained human who is motivated and has tons of money. But that's it. At the end of the day he is just one man. Meanwhile Superman, even putting aside the godlike power he has that could let him do anything, he has an alien fortress full of Alien knowledge and technology. Green Lantern has a ring that can do nearly anything as well as data bases of who knows how many peaceful alien species to act as a blueprint for. Wonder Woman has a nation full of magic, technology that could heal all injuries and literal Gods on speed dial. I could go on, but it seems these guys all get less poo poo about why they haven't fixed their cities than the one person who is trying to maintain a secret identity and can't shrug off "reactionaries to your plan to improve the city show up at your house and shoot you."
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2020 23:35
|
|
|
The core problem is always that comic book are slaves to a status quo. Superman and Batman COULD make great changes to their world but that wouldn't totally ruin the story. As such, I mostly read AU/What-Ifs/etc.. One of the first comics I ever read was Superman: Red Son which suggests that, if he was motivated enough, Superman could make the entire planet into a Soviet-style "utopia." You'd have no freedom but, as somebody pointed out when I first read the comic and discussed whether Supes was a hero or not "I don't think starving people care much about freedom." Superman might be Big Brother but that comes with good consequences in addition to bad ones. But the point is, whenever people ask "why doesn't Batman just kill The Joker?" the answer will always be "because it's a comic book and the status quo reigns supreme." Also I just post this now 
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2020 23:50
|
|
|
TheHan posted:Spider-Man's out there fighting tech bros or wealthy crime bosses while a lotta Batman villains get coded as mentally ill. It makes beating the brakes off them weekly look a lot worse. Tbh I'm not a fan of how they tried to make (retcon?) Doc Ock into being a murderous psychopath because of a "mental defect" or whatever the writer of the week wanted to label it, maybe I'm off base but it felt kinda pretty ableist
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2020 23:53
|
|
|
But Daredevil, where do laws come from? What about the law that says you can't marry Foggy?
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2020 00:19
|
|
|
I think it would be a cool experiment to have some social analysts and futurists come in and give DC/Marvel a layout of ways superheroes could measurably fix the world if they existed and run with that for a while. Show us what could happen if Batman really did donate enough money. They’re gonna reboot the universe every two years anyway, why not try it.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2020 00:23
|
|
|
I really do think that there's a hard limit to the amount of social change you can do with just the power to lift things really well. Although there are a bunch of times when Superman does some small jobs for orphans or something. Also I think Superman doesn't really understand half the technology he has in the cave of solitude. It does kinda bug me how Marvel comics has basically made a lot of sci-fi impossible technology basically mundane between comicbook geniuses and alien technology. Every goddamn body has interactive holographic displays for everything. Davros1 posted:The only reason they get classified as mentally ill is so the writers don't have to explain why the Joker hasn't gotten the death penalty yet. Plus the idea that an asylum is easier to escape from than a prison. That kinda reminds me of how The Simpsons accidentally became one of the top pieces of anti-nuclear propaganda around the world because it liked the joke of Homer almost causing a meltdown and put in some radiation jokes based on literally nothing. It's very obvious why it was pragmatic to the writers to present supervillains as insane (especially with the dated ideas of mental illness) and depict treatment (or just incarceration) as futile, but it really sure presents a perspective that's not as comfortable now as the world has shifted around the original concept over 80 years. Although I think it actually got worse when there was some kind of phase when almost every Batman villain had to be established as a serial killer.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2020 00:31
|
|
|
site posted:Tbh I'm not a fan of how they tried to make (retcon?) Doc Ock into being a murderous psychopath because of a "mental defect" or whatever the writer of the week wanted to label it, maybe I'm off base but it felt kinda pretty ableist It would be a retcon to say it wasn't a physical problem. The explosion in his origin damaged his brain. And then much later they also added an abusive upbringing leading to anger and violence issues.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2020 00:36
|
|
|
Honestly Joker getting labeled as "criminally insane" works for me the same way it often worked in real life, as a reflection of a society not wanting to deal with the implications of a rational human being capable of such random and indiscriminate yet personal evil. Howard Unruh was America's first mass shooter, a guy who just walked around his neighborhood shooting anyone he came across with no real rhyme or reason until he ran out of bullets, walked back home, and waited for the cops to show up. He was very obviously legally culpable for his crimes, committing them because he wanted to instead of saying he was delusional or whatever, but ended up spending the rest of his life in a mental institution simply because the judge and jury could not imagine a world where someone perfectly sane would do that. Surely something was wrong with him.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2020 01:03
|
|
|
SlothfulCobra posted:I really do think that there's a hard limit to the amount of social change you can do with just the power to lift things really well. Although there are a bunch of times when Superman does some small jobs for orphans or something. Superman can build more low income housing in a day than construction crews can in months Superman can singlehandedly fix the water system in Flint Michigan Superman can make diamonds and distribute them to poor families, or sell them and then distribute the money to them Superman could use brainiac (does he still have a brainiac?) to liquidate the holdings of billionaires Superman can demilitarize police departments and strip them of their weapons Superman can beat up Bruce Wayne until he coughs up more money Lobok posted:It would be a retcon to say it wasn't a physical problem. The explosion in his origin damaged his brain. And then much later they also added an abusive upbringing leading to anger and violence issues. ah I didn't realize it went all the way back to the beginning, I just know every time he mentioned it in superior Spider-Man as the reason he "used to be" a bad guy I groaned out loud site fucked around with this message at 01:14 on Sep 4, 2020 |
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2020 01:07
|
|
|
Lobok posted:It would be a retcon to say it wasn't a physical problem. The explosion in his origin damaged his brain. And then much later they also added an abusive upbringing leading to anger and violence issues. I think after his origin story the brain damage aspect was totally dropped, until Mephisto had to bring it up again when he took Ock's hot new Peter Parker body and gave him his original loser body back.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2020 01:08
|
|
|
site posted:Superman can build more low income housing in a day than construction crews can in months The diamond one would just cause the diamond market to collapse, though eliminating diamond mines would in and of itself be a net good.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2020 01:12
|
|
|
Skwirl posted:The diamond one would just cause the diamond market to collapse, though eliminating diamond mines would in and of itself be a net good. True but people would buy his stock up until it's worthless which would still be a hefty sum of money
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2020 01:14
|
|
|
Skwirl posted:The diamond one would just cause the diamond market to collapse, though eliminating diamond mines would in and of itself be a net good. The new Commissioner Gordon would be pissed EDIT: wait he owns a gold mine https://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/19/magazine/jeffrey-wrights-gold-mine.html
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2020 01:29
|
|
|
Unmature posted:I think it would be a cool experiment to have some social analysts and futurists come in and give DC/Marvel a layout of ways superheroes could measurably fix the world if they existed and run with that for a while. Show us what could happen if Batman really did donate enough money. They’re gonna reboot the universe every two years anyway, why not try it. One of my favorite threads on another forum is about exploring a version of the DC universe where time moves continuously from Superman's debut in 1938 to the present day and generally treats Superheroes as having had a positive impact on the world at large
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2020 01:49
|
|
|
TheHan posted:I think after his origin story the brain damage aspect was totally dropped, until Mephisto had to bring it up again when he took Ock's hot new Peter Parker body and gave him his original loser body back. Not sure if it was dropped or just not repeatedly mentioned. The Amazing Spider-Man vs. The Brain-Damaged Doctor Octopus! Once he became Dr. Octopus the how and why was old news until they started fleshing out his backstory much later. Spider-Man villain development and histories were not fertile ground for stories for a long time. But it stopped being a thing for long enough that Slott was able to make a story about Ock's brain being damaged over the years by Spider-Man's fists.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2020 02:03
|
|
|
drrockso20 posted:One of my favorite threads on another forum is about exploring a version of the DC universe where time moves continuously from Superman's debut in 1938 to the present day and generally treats Superheroes as having had a positive impact on the world at large Read Secret Identity.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2020 02:08
|
|
|
In Superior Spider-Man you also kind of get the sense that Otto is trying to whitewash his past and reconcile his two identities by saying his villainy was solely the result of a brain injury. He's a little bit in denial both about how he's changed, and who he used to be. The ending of that series sucked, though. Really harsh way to reset the status quo.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2020 02:15
|
|
|
site posted:Superman can build more low income housing in a day than construction crews can in months These while doable would require Superman to basically declare war and do it by force, because it's not the inability to move heavy things holding these this back, it's the political will to defund the police and allocate land usage. He did do nuclear disarmament a few times, but that horribly backfired in ludicrously implausible ways. site posted:Superman can singlehandedly fix the water system in Flint Michigan I don't actually think he can do that. He's not a plumber, and even if he manually distributes water by hand, the problem isn't solved until they actually deal with the pipes. site posted:Superman could use brainiac (does he still have a brainiac?) to liquidate the holdings of billionaires Okay, this could work, but freeing Brainiac would end up putting the planet at risk of being blown up again. Also I think Superman isn't philosophically willing to consider that option. site posted:Superman can make diamonds and distribute them to poor families, or sell them and then distribute the money to them These I think he technically does. In a way. Like he does a lot of stuff for charity, and it's not like Bruce Wayne is lending money to The Flash.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2020 02:26
|
|
|
SlothfulCobra posted:These while doable would require Superman to basically declare war and do it by force, because it's not the inability to move heavy things holding these this back, it's the political will to defund the police and allocate land usage. Paul Dini and Alex Ross did a comic where he tried to solve world hunger and this was one of the reasons it didn’t work on top of the fact that even he can’t be everywhere every day at once AND beat up Parasite or whatever
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2020 02:36
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:Read Secret Identity. Especially egregious given the guy's a journalist.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2020 03:06
|
|
|
Drakyn posted:Wasn't that the one where USA black ops goes after Superman and he ends up cutting a deal with one of the agency's higher-ups where he does what they demand now and then and in return they don't go after him or his family? Because that doesn't strike me as the sort of positive impact he was looking for. He cuts a deal to help his family but refuses to do anything that would compromise his morality, to the point where when he finds out he was tricked at one point he gets furiously angry. He basically serves as a "there's a tornado, plz help" button rather than a "kill my enemies" button. However the fact he acted as a hero and did good was a major contributor to changes in perception so that the governments stopped pulling the same poo poo and by the end of the story they're living in a world of advanced technology where super speedsters deliver packages and the world is a genuinely better place, with his own children prepared to take over as genuine superheroes after he finally passes on. The ending of the story is basically "He was the first superhero and his example set the way for a world where people use their powers in constructive ways" not "and then Superman was a BLACK OPS MERCENARY."
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2020 03:16
|
|
|
Yeah, every Superman story where he fixes the world is one where he also has to declare himself emperor or whatever (edit: okay and Secret Identity I guess), and since status is king, and our world sucks, that'll never happen in mainstream comics.bunnyofdoom posted:Honestly, at this point should make Gotham be like New York state and have the death penalty abolished That would require them to pin down a location for Gotham which is something I think they'll never do. Like, I think it's generally agreed upon that it's in New Jersey, but the most they'll ever do is show it's on the east coast. TwoPair fucked around with this message at 03:19 on Sep 4, 2020 |
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2020 03:17
|
|
|
TwoPair posted:Yeah, every Superman story where he fixes the world is one where he also has to declare himself emperor or whatever (edit: okay and Secret Identity I guess), and since status is king, and our world sucks, that'll never happen in mainstream comics. I thought they'd been explicit about what state it was in in the comics before. For some reason I've got it in my head Metropolis is in Delaware.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2020 03:22
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:He cuts a deal to help his family but refuses to do anything that would compromise his morality, to the point where when he finds out he was tricked at one point he gets furiously angry. He basically serves as a "there's a tornado, plz help" button rather than a "kill my enemies" button. However the fact he acted as a hero and did good was a major contributor to changes in perception so that the governments stopped pulling the same poo poo and by the end of the story they're living in a world of advanced technology where super speedsters deliver packages and the world is a genuinely better place, with his own children prepared to take over as genuine superheroes after he finally passes on.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2020 03:25
|
|
|
Skwirl posted:I thought they'd been explicit about what state it was in in the comics before. For some reason I've got it in my head Metropolis is in Delaware. Yeah the same place where Gotham is declared to be in New Jersey stated Metropolis to be in Delaware(this would have been the old West End Games DC RPG I believe)
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2020 03:38
|
|
|
drrockso20 posted:Yeah the same place where Gotham is declared to be in New Jersey stated Metropolis to be in Delaware(this would have been the old West End Games DC RPG I believe) Well New Jersey officially abolished the death penalty in 2007, but prior to that hadn't executed anyone since 1963.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2020 03:52
|
|
|
The Question IRL posted:I was about to post a smart Alec post of "the way to solve the dichotomy of how being Batman is depressing and never has an upbeat ending is to just make him Spider-man. It's more fun to be a pedant about Batman because he's the popular guy. That's it. There is absolutely no difference otherwise. Nearly 100 years of cape comics and I'll still pass by "Um maybe Batman should donate some of his money instead of beating people up" on Twitter or what have you like it's a revelation.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2020 03:54
|
|
"
The Question IRL posted:I was about to post a smart Alec post of "the way to solve the dichotomy of how being Batman is depressing and never has an upbeat ending is to just make him Spider-man. Spider-man doesn't have much in the way of power to affect systemic change. I absolutely hold Superman in contempt for never trying to affect the status quo in a meaningful way and hiding behind the BS excuse that it'd "stifle humanity's growth" or "lead to dictatorship". If there was an armed insurrection of the USA, he'd absolutely put it down. But for some reason stopping CIA interference in foreign affairs is off the table. Superman's a collaborator.
|
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2020 04:11
|
|
|
I've said it before but superman could kickstart all kinds of poo poo just by flying things into orbit for free. No weight budget on space missions? No launch cost? We'd have all kinds of neat poo poo up there.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2020 05:32
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 2, 2024 00:18 |
|
Scaramouche posted:I've said it before but superman could kickstart all kinds of poo poo just by flying things into orbit for free. No weight budget on space missions? No launch cost? We'd have all kinds of neat poo poo up there. Yeah, he could do amazing things for the world without breaking any laws. But instead he stops bank robbers and the occasional space god/meteor strike. Which very conveniently never used to happen before he showed up.
|
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2020 07:37
|
|