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Well, that just about wraps up episode 4, short of teatimes. Boy, I have to say, aside from making me extremely sad in that one spot, this chapter sure dragged on. I found myself actively skipping text I hadn't read because of how predictable and repetitive it was, and I'm not sure if we got a lot of revelations at the end, either... but I'm the sort who loves to speculate and solve things ahead of time, so if I may, I'd like to ask the people who've read Umineko before to (without spoiling anything, obviously): Is it possible at the end of episode 4 to accurately work out the major mysteries of the VN (who killed everyone, who is Beatrice, what is the solution to the epitaph, is Kinzo alive or dead etc.) without making extraordinary leaps in logic, or is there knowledge from the solution arcs that is essential to doing so? Basically I guess I'm wondering if it's realistic for me to try and work out the details of what just happened before starting on the next part. Also, I think this is the first time I got legitimately annoyed with Battler. The way he just implodes whenever his assumptions are wrecked by the red rather than working around even simple word tricks like "you're not Asumu's son" with the obvious answer "so what, I'm Rudolf's son right?". He truly is incompetent. Hyper Crab Tank fucked around with this message at 09:11 on Aug 26, 2020 |
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Aug 26, 2020 09:03
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Hyper Crab Tank posted:Is it possible at the end of episode 4 to accurately work out the major mysteries of the VN [...] without making extraordinary leaps in logic [...]? That is certainly the intention. As to the reality, I would say yes, but not verifiably. That is to say it is definitely possible to arrive at a correct theory, and even reasonable to reach a point where you consider it more likely than all other theories, but I don't feel there's enough there to confirm that theory to the exclusion of others. Of course you could say that about any mystery novel, so that's not necessarily a problem. You are not going to solve the epitaph, though. edit: And yeah, you're far from the first person to feel that EP4 drags in the middle. I would say it's the low point of the series for that. NRVNQSR fucked around with this message at 09:50 on Aug 26, 2020 |
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Aug 26, 2020 09:47
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I feel like the series drags in general over explaining things so if it gets worse, oh boy
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Aug 26, 2020 09:51
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Hyper Crab Tank posted:Is it possible at the end of episode 4 to accurately work out the major mysteries of the VN Back then some people worked it out by episode 3 so yes. Everything in your spoiler can be worked out, including the epitaph (for that one, granted, it'll help to be japanese, despite the fair translation). And after episode 4 you can work out a wider framework for it all, too, the context in which those tales are happening and maybe even what the stakes are. However, it's kind of a mechanistic solution? Like, you can work out a guilty party, how they did it and what their motive was, but not really why they were the sort of person that'd consider doing it for that motive even though you understand why they did it. And, like you'll get revelations out of future episodes that flesh out characters a lot and make it easier to get what happened, but it's not necessary fleshing out from the purely mechanistic point of view, yet without it it's not quite the same idea. The magician pulled a sea cat out of their hat! You understand where the sea cat was really hidden and the magician's motive was to entertain and be paid for it! But do you understand why the magician chose to be a magician? That last one is something you can maybe have a feeling that you know, but you cannot explain yet. Chev fucked around with this message at 10:28 on Aug 26, 2020 |
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Aug 26, 2020 10:23
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Yeah you can definitely answer the 'key questions' (epitaph aside, which I regard as more of a sideshow). Gaining the full understanding required for everything to click into place is hard though even after episode 8
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Aug 26, 2020 10:34
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With that said when it comes to Umineko there are some thematic ideas you need to grasp before you can solve it. Without those you can read all 8 episodes and still be completely wrong
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Aug 26, 2020 10:47
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Hyper Crab Tank posted:Well, that just about wraps up episode 4, short of teatimes. Boy, I have to say, aside from making me extremely sad in that one spot, this chapter sure dragged on. I found myself actively skipping text I hadn't read because of how predictable and repetitive it was, and I'm not sure if we got a lot of revelations at the end, either... but I'm the sort who loves to speculate and solve things ahead of time, so if I may, I'd like to ask the people who've read Umineko before to (without spoiling anything, obviously): Is it possible at the end of episode 4 to accurately work out the major mysteries of the VN (who killed everyone, who is Beatrice, what is the solution to the epitaph, is Kinzo alive or dead etc.) without making extraordinary leaps in logic, or is there knowledge from the solution arcs that is essential to doing so? Basically I guess I'm wondering if it's realistic for me to try and work out the details of what just happened before starting on the next part. This is also a point where having 6 months between each episode to give the fandom time to really pick stuff apart helps with solving it now rather than later. There definitely were a lot of correct theories getting thrown around by this point but they weren't more or less permanently verified until a few episodes later.
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Aug 26, 2020 12:20
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Hyper Crab Tank posted:Well, that just about wraps up episode 4, short of teatimes. Boy, I have to say, aside from making me extremely sad in that one spot, this chapter sure dragged on. I found myself actively skipping text I hadn't read because of how predictable and repetitive it was, and I'm not sure if we got a lot of revelations at the end, either... but I'm the sort who loves to speculate and solve things ahead of time, so if I may, I'd like to ask the people who've read Umineko before to (without spoiling anything, obviously): Is it possible at the end of episode 4 to accurately work out the major mysteries of the VN (who killed everyone, who is Beatrice, what is the solution to the epitaph, is Kinzo alive or dead etc.) without making extraordinary leaps in logic, or is there knowledge from the solution arcs that is essential to doing so? Basically I guess I'm wondering if it's realistic for me to try and work out the details of what just happened before starting on the next part. No Wave fucked around with this message at 13:00 on Aug 26, 2020 |
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Aug 26, 2020 12:57
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Yeah, it's worth mentioning everything I said was with the assuption you include the tea party and ??? of episode 4 but that should go without saying.
Chev fucked around with this message at 14:09 on Aug 26, 2020 |
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Aug 26, 2020 13:24
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Chapter 4 is still my favorite thus far (I'm still in the middle of chapter 7). I felt that the answer arcs dragged on more so far honestly, though I don't think that is a commonly held opinion. But yeah, as everyone said, Tea Time and ??? are no longer bonuses at this point. They are the actual climaxes of the chapter.
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Aug 26, 2020 14:35
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MegaZeroX posted:Chapter 4 is still my favorite thus far (I'm still in the middle of chapter 7). I felt that the answer arcs dragged on more so far honestly, though I don't think that is a commonly held opinion. But yeah, as everyone said, Tea Time and ??? are no longer bonuses at this point. They are the actual climaxes of the chapter. Chapter 7 is good but it definitely drags. Chapter 8 feels a lot better paced. Chev posted:The magician pulled a sea cat out of their hat! You understand where the sea cat was really hidden and the magician's motive was to entertain and be paid for it! But do you understand why the magician chose to be a magician? That last one is something you can maybe have a feeling that you know, but you cannot explain yet. This is a really good way to frame it.
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Aug 26, 2020 15:00
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I think I'd in general disagree with EP7 dragging, I think if anything it's the best paced episode in terms of what it covers and how it gets through it. Pretty much every major beat is impactful and necessary. EP2 and EP4 are probably what I'd consider the slowest chapters, with EP1 being maybe in that conversation even though I think in retrospect I look back on its more deliberate pace with nostalgia given that it's the most "traditional" portrayal of the murders.
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Aug 26, 2020 15:05
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Nate RFB posted:I think I'd in general disagree with EP7 dragging, I think if anything it's the best paced episode in terms of what it covers and how it gets through it. Pretty much every major beat is impactful and necessary. EP2 and EP4 are probably what I'd consider the slowest chapters, with EP1 being maybe in that conversation even though I think in retrospect I look back on its more deliberate pace with nostalgia given that it's the most "traditional" portrayal of the murders. I think someone's earlier point about the difference in Japanese vs Western story structure makes the perceived pacing issues with EP 1 make a lot of sense (and maybe it's especially jarring considering the purposefully western setting and allusions). Re EP7: I thought most of it was fine and engaging, but god I dreaded every time Claire popped up for those sections. I felt like those in particular dragged too long and killed the momentum, and I'm also not sure how necessary some of the exposition there was. Parts of it were absolutely necessary to fully understand the character, but parts of it really felt like the writer beating us over the head with 'so did you understand the point of Chapter 6? Did you understand why there's only 16 people?' Granted, looking up stuff online, a lot of people STILL don't get it so maybe even the Claire segments weren't explicit enough...
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Aug 26, 2020 15:26
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PhysicsFrenzy posted:Re EP7: I thought most of it was fine and engaging, but god I dreaded every time Claire popped up for those sections. I felt like those in particular dragged too long and killed the momentum, and I'm also not sure how necessary some of the exposition there was. Parts of it were absolutely necessary to fully understand the character, but parts of it really felt like the writer beating us over the head with 'so did you understand the point of Chapter 6? Did you understand why there's only 16 people?' Granted, looking up stuff online, a lot of people STILL don't get it so maybe even the Claire segments weren't explicit enough... Also it helps that they, along with the rest of the chapter, is paired with probably the best music in the whole VN.
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Aug 26, 2020 15:47
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Nate RFB posted:Those parts are the main reason I like that EP so much. Thinking about them as "beating you over the head" or whether they were "necessary exposition" I feel is not only missing the point, but something that Ryukishi more or less mocked via Hachijo in earlier chapters. After so many chapters saying "without heart, it cannot be seen" we finally have the WHY. Claire's narration is what really gets into Yasu's despair with their gender, relationships, and history, and how they do or do not cope with them all. It's the most emotional Umineko probably ever gets. It's probably the most interesting the metaphysical aspects of Umineko ever get, where they are somehow a meta layer even more abstract and removed than usual. All fair points, and I get where you're coming from. I'm not saying the Claire segments aren't important to the heart of the character or work, of course. Just that they, well, drag-- and I don't think it's missing the point to feel that way. A lot of Umineko is very purposeful in what scenes it shows us and their greater meaning, but some of the parts in the Claire segments feel like they retread ground in a way that isn't characteristic of the rest of the VN. I also think that Ryukishi often takes 20 words to say what could be said with 5, and the segments we're discussing are some of the worst offenders. Though I don't know how much of that is the translation versus the original writing. Also the best music is in the Kinzo section 
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Aug 26, 2020 16:21
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Right; teatime is over. Let's see if I can gather my thoughts on this. Umineko episode 4 spoilers below. Let's see how much of this stuff I end up being dead wrong on later. So, Kinzo was dead all along. I suspected as much once the subject was brought up - everything else that happened in that episode is clearly embellished. That includes descriptions of golden threads and whatnot given to ingame Battler by Kyrie and others as they died. And Kinzo's death was confirmed in red, so it's definitely true. Battler's blue statements were obviously weak (and it's like Beatrice wasn't even trying to counter some of them) even before ???? confirmed that they were. At least some of the solutions to what's going on have to be in the parts of the story that have not been sufficiently explored yet. In particular, the orphanage that Shannon and Kanon came from sticks out like a sore thumb. What was the name, Fukuin? It has been brought up several times but never explored in detail. Battler's sin from the past goes completely unaddressed and worries me a fair bit. We still know very little about Battler's not-actual-mother, Asumu, even though she's been mentioned a lot. What did Ange see in that room full of futons? * I believe most of what we've seen that isn't in red is unreliable information, particularly anything supernatural-looking but probably other stuff too. In fact, there's a red text to the effect that anything not in red cannot be trusted. * In general, the novel seems to run on the rule that the actions people are shown to take are unreliable narration, but the end results are real, insofar as they can be properly detected and evaluated after the fact. George didn't have an anime street fight with Gaap that ended with her kicking him in the forehead with her heel after he and Jessica punched each other out - but he died with a wound to the forehead nevertheless. * I don't believe there is any real connection between the epitaph and the murders. At most, someone is using the epitaph as cover or as some kind of ironic echo, but Kinzo never had any bizarre ritual murder in mind when he wrote it. Most likely reason for it is that he left it as a clue to his fortune that only the person he wanted to be his successor would be able to find. * I do believe the epitaph is some kind of word puzzle and is not meant to be taken literally. Fortunately, I speak enough Japanese to read the epitaph in its original form. Unfortunately, that doesn't mean I feel particularly helped by it. * I believe the theory as presented by Rudolf et al. is pretty much correct - Kinzo died of natural causes well over a year ago (sometime between commissioning the painting/epitaph and last year's family meeting) and Krauss has been embezzling the family funds since. Natsuhi is aware of this fact. It's a pretty simple theory, so by Occam's Razor I'm inclined to believe it. * However, if this is true, then that instantly drags at the very least Nanjo and Genji, and possibly the rest of the servants with the exception of Gohda into a conspiracy to keep this fact quiet. * I believe magic, and witches, is a coping mechanism used by broken, powerless people. At the same time, it's a metaphor for the cruel outpouring of unresolved anguish in the form of violence against others, real or imagined; as seen in Eva killing her siblings after solving the epitaph, Ange's daydreaming about killing her schoolmates, Kasumi becoming who she is, Maria fantasizing about killing Rosa over and over, etc. Without love, it cannot be seen - we have to have empathy and willingness to understand the past tragedy that drives people to violent actions. This, of course, raises several big questions, perhaps the most important being who are we trying to understand? In whose mind does this concoction of witches - Beatrice, in particular - exist? * Speaking of, there sure are a lot of people going around using pseudonyms. Beatrice is a name passed around left and right. Shannon and Kanon are pseudonyms, and we don't know Kanon's real name. Hell, we don't know if Sayo is really Shannon's real name either for that matter. The idea that Kinzo is a name being passed around was not denied in red, though that's not a clear reason to accept it, either. At this stage I'm even willing to believe Battler is a pseudonym (after all, it's the only name where the pronunciation is derived from the meaning of kanji rather than their phonetics). * Ronove is probably someone's magical representation of Ronoue Genji, and it's likely Virgilia is a representation of Kumasawa. In other words, the true identity of Beatrice is someone who knows and looks up to both of them. Unfortunately, that doesn't really narrow anything down. * The Chiester Sisters probably represent Kinzo's Winchester rifles. * The Stakes of Purgatory are probably... actually, it wouldn't surprise me if Kinzo simply had a set of weird occult stakes lying around. Their waifu versions are representations of those stakes, then. They could also just be representations of generic sharp, stabby objects or even handguns, or merely the concept of using a weapon on another person. I wonder - is the manifestation of Mammon in Ange's sections a representation of her bringing a weapon to school, but in the end finding herself unwilling to use it? In the final scene between Ange and Kasumi, they represent her assistant finally showing up with what I'm guessing is a sniper rifle and taking out the goons. * I have no clue who Gaap represents. Given that she spends most of her appearances moving things around and cleaning up messes, she might represent Shannon, Kanon, or any of the other servants. * Kinzo all but held hostage a woman at Kuwadorian for many years - this is the Beatrice shown in flashbacks, who eventually dies after her encounter with Rosa. The boat deliveries stopping right about this time is further supporting evidence. The way she seems very sheltered and naive makes me think she lived there for a long time, possibly as a child, even. That implies all kinds of nasty poo poo about Kinzo. * At one point, Kinzo exclaims that each of his children has only managed to produce a single heir of their own. But... that's not correct, is it? Rudolf has both Battler and Ange. I don't know if this is significant. It could be a translation issue, it could be unreliable narration, but it stuck in my mind when he said it. * The passcode to the vault sent to the survivors' children was 07151129. We can assume this is the Ushiromiya family bank vault, and that the code was ultimately chosen by Kinzo. This raises a question: why would Kinzo choose Battler's birthday as half of the passcode to his fortune, and what is the other half? Battler was born July 15th; who was born November 29th? Or does it refer to 11:29 in the day? Unfortunately Showa 29 is 1954, so that doesn't really help. Or is it a red herring and the numbers mean something else and it's just a coincidence? * Asumu is not Battler's mother, that much was stated in red. The obvious way around it is to say that it doesn't matter, because Rudolf is his father and some unknown woman is the mother - Kyrie, perhaps, as she was to give birth on the same day as Asumu and there may have been a switcharoo. The only thing preventing me from thinking Rudolf might have had an affair with the young "Beatrice" kept in Kuwadorian is that Battler is 18 and that Beatrice died 19 years ago... right? * The worst part about all this is that the meta-parts of the game reek of a situation in which someone is trying to come to terms with a series of murders that they witnessed (or committed) and is failing badly, thus the proliferation of witches as a means to explain (or absolve oneself of) horrifying deeds. At this point I'm not even convinced Battler is real - he, too, could be a representation of this person's desire to accept what happened and dispel the magic, so to speak. Oh, and I guess Chiester 556 is an easter egg I just stumbled upon? Finally, I wish there was a list of all the red statements somewhere. I really don't dare to google anything about this for risk of spoilers. Hyper Crab Tank fucked around with this message at 22:17 on Aug 26, 2020 |
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Aug 26, 2020 21:39
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Regarding 556, yeah, it's a post-original release addition. It's true that a post-game list of red text, kinda like how the Higurashi tips were available after each chapter, would've been a handy thing to have, but at the same time, they're a lot more unbalanced than the tips, some episodes offer none at all. Chev fucked around with this message at 22:15 on Aug 26, 2020 |
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Aug 26, 2020 22:11
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Hyper Crab Tank posted:Also, I think this is the first time I got legitimately annoyed with Battler. The way he just implodes whenever his assumptions are wrecked by the red rather than working around even simple word tricks like "you're not Asumu's son" with the obvious answer "so what, I'm Rudolf's son right?". He truly is incompetent. In all fairness that'd be a hell of a way to find out that your mom isn't your mom
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Aug 27, 2020 03:25
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Hyper Crab Tank posted:Finally, I wish there was a list of all the red statements somewhere. I really don't dare to google anything about this for risk of spoilers. Here's a list that was created around the time of the LP, adapted for your current location. (End of ep 4 spoilers, obviously)
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Aug 27, 2020 04:46
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Cyouni posted:Here's a list that was created around the time of the LP, adapted for your current location. (End of ep 4 spoilers, obviously) Oh, sweet! Thanks a lot. Time to dig in and figure this out. Raiad posted:In all fairness that'd be a hell of a way to find out that your mom isn't your mom Sure, it's just the way he completely forgets that he had another goal he was pursuing at the time (proving he was Kinzo's grandson). And that isn't the first time he's completely folded over the instant a theory of his is directly contradicted by red. He does get better though. The episode 4 teatime was what I've been waiting for all this time.
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Aug 27, 2020 08:28
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I'm still trying to put my thoughts together - I have a hypothesis for episode 1 at the very least. But while reading character tips, I had a weird idea about... well. There are four Chiester sisters. I'm still pretty sure they're representations of guns, but they're also rabbits. And 556's profile states she died, unluckily, in battle with a black witch... and her "resurrected" profile states she played the trumpet. Just like the one ceramic rabbit out of four that Rosa broke in that very sad scene. I have no idea what the hell that means though.  Best theory: Whoever Beatrice truly is, it's a person who knew Maria well and shared the magic with her - I mean, that much we kinda know. But what I'm starting to wonder is how much of that flowed in which direction, so to speak. We've been made to believe Beatrice introduced Maria to magic, but what if it's the other way around? Whoever is really telling this story got all of it, all the witch business, from Maria, and thus has incorporated the things that were important to her. Such as rabbits.I'm tempted to just start on the next episode. But I'll at least post my theories about episode 1: (technically spoilers include up to Umineko episode 4) General premise: Kinzo has been dead for more than a year, either from natural causes or murder. At the very least Krauss, Natsuhi, Genji and Nanjo are aware of this, and possibly murdered him; there's a high chance Shannon, Kanon and Kumasawa do as well, but Gohda does not. If he was murdered, I'm guessing the epitaph ultimately caused it indirectly - I suspect someone solved it in the months between Kinzo unveiling it and his death, and in doing so learned something that impelled them both to do away with Kinzo and, ultimately, set in motion the events of 1986. It's never stated, but since we never see the mansion in 1998 and there are many references to the deplorable state of corpses shortly after the incident, I'm guessing something like a fire breaks out at midnight on the final day of every episode, killing anyone still alive (and not at Kuwadorian), and erasing any remaining evidence. Episode 1: This hinges on a conspiracy between at the very least Genji, Nanjo, and Kanon, although I don't know their motives. The first six murders could've been done by any of the servants - I suspect Genji and Kanon. At any rate, it's not a locked room to begin with. Eva and Hideyoshi were killed in their rooms, Kanon cut the chain before closing the door, and the rest is just stagecraft between him and Genji to mislead the rest into thinking it was a locked room murder. Between red text stating that no one could've killed Kanon, he didn't commit suicide and didn't die of an accident, my conclusion is that Kanon was not killed in the boiler room to begin with - he is faking the whole thing. Genji and Nanjo carry him away visibly still living and, being part of the conspiracy, gloomily announce Kanon's death. But no one else ever sees his body. Of course, Kinzo was dead all along and is merely chucked into the incinerator. The rest of the deaths are then easily explained by Kanon unlocking the parlor with the master key and killing everyone except Maria, then facing off with Natsuhi and shooting her in the forehead with his own gun. It's a theory with holes, particularly on the motive end, but I don't think it contradicts anything. Edit: Addenda a few days later: At the beginning of episode 3, we are shown a child breaking a vase in Kuwadorian, then getting bailed out by Virgilia. We are later in the same episode shown a young human Beatrice in Kuwadorian. The game misleads us into thinking these events happened to the same person, but I believe they didn't. The vase-breaker refers to it as belonging to "Grandfather", but human Beatrice calls Kinzo her best friend and "like a father". The truth of the Beatrice in Kuwadorian: Kinzo returns from World War II with a woman called Beatrice, a mistress. He keeps her hidden from his official wife (who he doesn't love - it was an arranged marriage) in Kuwadorian. Thanks to her good head for business and/or family connections (ten tons of gold), the Ushiromiya family prospers. This is also when the legend of the witch of Rokkenjima begins to take shape. Kinzo fathers an illegitimate child with her - any time between 1945 and about 1950 puts the child in the right age range. Unfortunately, Beatrice dies in childbirth. The child - who Kinzo also names Beatrice after her mother - is raised in secret in Kuwadorian, until one fateful day in 1967 she is led outside by Rosa and falls to her death. If Kinzo's mind hasn't already snapped by this point, it certainly does now. The truth of the vase-breaking incident: One of Kinzo's grandchildren breaks a vase. Skilled liar Kumasawa takes pity on the child and convinces the other servants a cat knocked the vase over, and thus magic is performed. The only question is why this child was at Kuwadorian. From here on, it's some crazy speculation. I mentioned previously that I think the epitaph might be intended as a puzzle for the true successor of the family to solve. This lines up far too neatly with the idea that Beatrice the Younger may have had a child of her own with a currently unknown father. If that's true, the child must be in the age range of about 17-20 depending on when exactly Beatrice the Younger died (Rosa seems unsure), which lines up far too well with Battler's age. Yeah, I'm fearing Battler might actually not be Rudolf's son either - but he is nevertheless Kinzo's grandson, via a different parent. We already know he's not Asumu's son, so some kind of switcheroo or clandestine agreement happened around the time of his birth. Now. If that is true, that leaves with a detail we need to account for: what happened to the other child? It's certainly possible Asumu and Kyrie miscarried at the same time. But if that's not the case, then that leaves us with a spare child - or even two spare children, if in truth neither miscarried. And... here's where Fukuin House comes into the picture. I have no evidence for this theory and it straight up flies in the face of certain supposed facts, but: could Shannon and/or Kanon be those children? Kanon is stated to be 16, so that's a bit young, but I don't remember anything about Shannon's age, and she's described as "kind of an elder sister" to him, so that could put her in the right age range. At first, I figured the vase-breaking child at Kuwadorian might logically be the child of Beatrice the Younger. That's absolutely a possibility. But Virgilia refers to her as "princess", so it must be a girl, thus it couldn't be Battler. Or maybe it can and the title itself is just magic obfuscation. Bah, I've argued myself in circles. I think it's time to just play the next part. Double-crazy speculation: I've been bothered by Battler's name all this time. Everyone else in the family has a weird western name written as ateji, but Battler has a western name drawn from the meaning of the kanji 戦人. Why the break in the pattern? That makes me wonder if 戦人 isn't how his name is supposed to be spelled. Perhaps for whatever reason, he has forgotten or doesn't know the real spelling? The only time it's ever brought up to us is in his own mind, so no independent party has ever verified the spelling. It's such a weird and tiny detail, but I can't stop wondering about it. Hyper Crab Tank fucked around with this message at 16:04 on Aug 29, 2020 |
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Aug 27, 2020 21:54
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I also just started Umineko, just started episode 2, and wow. I'm not really in love with all of this, a lot of the family/relationship stuff is pretty sappy without much depth (so far), but I'm intrigued enough to continue. I particularly liked the first Tea Party being this weird greek choir with the characters semi-detachedly commenting on their fates. While I liked the drama of the episode 1 ending, I had the exact same thoughts as the characters: Wasn't this supposed to be a murder mystery, not just "a witch did it"? It gave me hope to see that the game was completely aware of this. Hoping for a little more mystery solving and a little less people talking about love and caring about your cousins.
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Aug 30, 2020 12:46
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You're taking this from the wrong end. If this is a mystery, but it seems focused on establishing the whole family relationship thing, then the family relationships must be an integral part of the mystery solving framework in some way. The tea party, on the other hand, well. It's one of those things where if you played Higurashi as soon as you click on it you'll get it, because that's how it was in Higurashi, and that's not even some kind of spoilery twist. You just had those bonus segments after each of the question episodes where the cast would gather in a restaurant for an after party and talk about stuff like "gee, I wonder who killed me" or "I didn't get to appear as much as I'd like" or "X's sprite still isn't drawn so they're not attending today, the artist's such a lazy rear end". It was a funny little bonus, but also used by the author to clarify some of the themes, establish some basic literacy and even shoot down some early guesses. So in Umineko you get that again. But then things go horribly off the rails.
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Aug 30, 2020 13:12
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Elswyyr posted:Wasn't this supposed to be a murder mystery, not just "a witch did it"? Indeed. Wasn't it? Read on. I'm now reading chapter 5 and things... have come a long way since chapter 2, let me tell you. Midway through Umineko ch. 5 spoilers: Looks like I was spot on about Kinzo, at least, though it was getting pretty obvious. I'm concerned about that atlas Original Character Do Not Steal just pulled out of the library, though. It makes me worried there's an actual tiresome geographical puzzle involved here in addition to wordplay, which would be saddening. Edit: This "Beatrice has nothing to gain from having someone solve the epitaph" red text is full of holes. Current guess: It's not the solution that matters to Beatrice, it's what people learn and how they change as they work their way there. Whether they actually solve anything in the end or not is immaterial. All this seems to connect back to Battler's sin somehow. The goal might be to make him remember or reconcile something. Edit 2: Loli Father Knox, what are you doing here? Hyper Crab Tank fucked around with this message at 18:52 on Aug 30, 2020 |
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Aug 30, 2020 14:03
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Hyper Crab Tank posted:Edit 2: Loli Father Knox, what are you doing here?
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Sep 1, 2020 03:02
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My sister is thinking about getting into visual novels, does anybody have a recommendation for a decent entry point? She likes horror, magic, and cute anime boys swooning over each other. She has expressed that she's ambivalent towards puzzles, so I'm probably going to avoid recommending Ace Attorney or Umineko type games (I'm a huge fan of AA, I bounced off of Umineko maybe Episode 5 or 6). We also tried out Somnium, but the main character was a bit too much of a creepy sex-pest. I've been listening to the Visual Novel Book Club Podcast, and Raging Loop sounded pretty promising, but the Layton twist about most of the magic being fake would probably irritate her. House in Fata Morgana sounds like a maybe, but she'd probably like something with a bit more adventure. A bit of googling best-of Otome games lists gave the titles Hakuoki, Nightshade, and Psychadelica of the Ashen Hawk. Looks like they hit at least two of three of the requested notes, but I have no idea what they're actually like and sometimes you can't really get a feel for a VN within the usual Steam refund window. I'd rather not recommend something that ends up being super-creepy 30 hours in. Any thoughts?
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Sep 5, 2020 05:35
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avoraciopoctules posted:My sister is thinking about getting into visual novels, does anybody have a recommendation for a decent entry point? She likes horror, magic, and cute anime boys swooning over each other. She has expressed that she's ambivalent towards puzzles, so I'm probably going to avoid recommending Ace Attorney or Umineko type games (I'm a huge fan of AA, I bounced off of Umineko maybe Episode 5 or 6). We also tried out Somnium, but the main character was a bit too much of a creepy sex-pest. Your Turn to Die, that has horror, an actual decent female MC who isn't objectified that I can remember. It does have puzzles but they aren't super hard and aren't really the point of the game. It's not romantic tho. It's also free but not fiinished. My wife just played Nightshade and said all most of the routes were very depressing if that matters at all. I heard Code:Realize was a decent Otome, along with Sweet Fuse, but I have not played them I mean if she is ok with a male main character Stein's Gate is my favorite VN and that has no puzzles at all
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Sep 5, 2020 05:57
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avoraciopoctules posted:My sister is thinking about getting into visual novels, does anybody have a recommendation for a decent entry point? She likes horror, magic, and cute anime boys swooning over each other. She has expressed that she's ambivalent towards puzzles, so I'm probably going to avoid recommending Ace Attorney or Umineko type games (I'm a huge fan of AA, I bounced off of Umineko maybe Episode 5 or 6). We also tried out Somnium, but the main character was a bit too much of a creepy sex-pest.
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Sep 5, 2020 12:28
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Obviously Fata Morgana is great but I'm not sure it's a great *entry* point. Ashen Hawk - It wasn't super creepy but I regret the time I spent playing it. It wasn't very good at being romantic and it eventually boils down to a lot of characters being terrible people, and a bit of incest iirc. I far, far preferred Psychedelica of the Black Butterfly. But I'm still not sure it's what I would suggest to a beginner, because it's kind of long and if you're not used to otome protagonists being treated like helpless fluffheads, you might get fed up long before it starts being revealed that there's more going on. quote:She likes horror, magic, and cute anime boys swooning over each other. And yet no one is suggesting BL games? It's not my specialist subject so I haven't actually played them, but some things worth checking out: When the Night Comes https://lunarisgames.itch.io/wtnc Gay vampires and werewolves has to qualify for horror, magic, and pretty boys, right? Royal Alchemist https://store.steampowered.com/app/939790/Royal_Alchemist/ Fantasy setting, very pretty boys, you can play as either male or female, magic and... well, death, though not technically horror. Demon Kiss https://foleso.itch.io/demonkiss This one's free so she could just sample it. It's probably not very long or memorable, but it's at least a taster. The Crown And The Flame https://vndb.org/v24362 Only if she's into phone games. I know a couple other yaoi-focused producers on Steam but from what I can see they tend to dip their feet more into the edgy side of yaoi, so I'd only list them if she's okay with potentially-abusive fantasy relationships.
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Sep 5, 2020 13:05
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I remember Higurashi's french translator/publisher recommending Blazblue (not sure which one specifically, depending on when the skipping feature debuted) as a good entry point for VNs some years ago, since you can skip the fights and it's got appealing characters. What was the Ace Attorney-like one with french birds called again? It's nice, not too long and with multiple routes. Chev fucked around with this message at 18:48 on Sep 5, 2020 |
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Sep 5, 2020 18:06
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I believe that was Blaz blue central fiction. there are three that the visual novel database list the other two being calamity trigger and continuum shift.
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Sep 5, 2020 18:12
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Can't be that one because that recommendation was made in 2014, two years before the non-arcade version Central Fiction came out.
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Sep 5, 2020 18:48
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Long Live the Queen is a cute little VN that is a hybrid raising sim and VN that can be pretty fun. Magical Diary as well, which is set in magic high school. The art in the first is bad though.
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Sep 5, 2020 20:44
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I think Fata Morgana should be a good entry point, it's mostly a weird gothic horror.
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Sep 5, 2020 20:45
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woodenchicken posted:Steins Gate's protagonist is the most pure, innocent soul, even in the "sexy" spin-off they made. Plus, you know, S;G rules. i would say there's a fairly um problematic scene with Lukako but I guess that's about as bad as it ever gets which isn't too bad for VNs
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Sep 6, 2020 01:09
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Thanks for the recommendations, everyone! Definitely some stuff I hadn't heard about, I'll probably end up recommending a couple once she's finished re-watching The Untamed on Youtube.Stefan Prodan posted:i would say there's a fairly um problematic scene with Lukako but I guess that's about as bad as it ever gets which isn't too bad for VNs I have not played Stein's Gate, but I definitely remember that scene getting called out as uncomfortable on VNBC. MegaZeroX posted:Long Live the Queen is a cute little VN that is a hybrid raising sim and VN that can be pretty fun. Magical Diary as well, which is set in magic high school. The art in the first is bad though. I remember there were some pretty good LPs for both of those. Amazing how much things could diverge based on what you focused on. gegi posted:Obviously Fata Morgana is great but I'm not sure it's a great *entry* point. gegi posted:And yet no one is suggesting BL games? It's not my specialist subject so I haven't actually played them, but some things worth checking out: Thanks! I'll email her steam links for Royal Alchemist and Hakuoki, the itch page for When the Night Comes, and I'll throw in the vgperson library page so she can pick out whatever looks most interesting in the horror subsection there.
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Sep 6, 2020 05:47
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avoraciopoctules posted:I remember there were some pretty good LPs for both of those. Amazing how much things could diverge based on what you focused on. If you are talking about SA, then the LLtQ one was mine actually 
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Sep 6, 2020 18:07
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woodenchicken posted:Steins Gate's protagonist is the most pure, innocent soul, even in the "sexy" spin-off they made. Plus, you know, S;G rules. I think he might be the cringiest VN protag I've ever seen. Especially early on, just seeing him interacting with other people was awkward to sit through. He DOES get better, I can say that much at least.
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Sep 6, 2020 18:22
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Heroic Yoshimitsu posted:I think he might be the cringiest VN protag I've ever seen. Especially early on, just seeing him interacting with other people was awkward to sit through. He DOES get better, I can say that much at least. Never read chaos; head
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Sep 6, 2020 19:14
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Heroic Yoshimitsu posted:I think he might be the cringiest VN protag I've ever seen. Especially early on, just seeing him interacting with other people was awkward to sit through. He DOES get better, I can say that much at least. yeah I mean I think a big appeal of stein's gate is okarin's character progression and like who he shows himself to be when things get real hosed, he certainly does not start out as what you would call a cool guy that's for sure
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Sep 6, 2020 20:23
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