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Since you're a newish DM I'll try to explain this in kind of a longform way: you have a problem because two separate little things that aren't inherently problematic unto themselves are rubbing up against each other - a very powerful ability that encourages a player to do one trivial (in that it has a menial near-term cost) but very specific thing, and a minmaxing player who's more interested in "winning" at D&D encounters than in what kind of story they're telling or how their behavior affects everyone else's fun. That kind of player will always seize on that kind of ability; if you give them a power that doubles their damage if they attack from ten feet or more in the air, they're going to dedicate every single skill choice, magical item, and in-character decision they make to gaining or creating high ground to the point of pathology. So you can fix it by fixing either or both of those component parts, to prevent this combo attack on your sanity; which you should pursue (or both) depends more on your individual players and your game, and information you have that we don't. 1. To deal with the ability, you just rip the band-aid off and nerf it. Make the new rules clear to everyone in advance of the next session if possible, give anyone affected the opportunity to change minor character stuff around if they don't like the new rule, and call it a day. There's already some suggestions itt on how to do that, but the most logical ones (imo) are either forcing a player who gets drunk enough to be super-powered to make a Con save and poisoning them (as in, the condition) if they fail, or just changing that bonus entirely because blanket advantage is crazy good and make it more like "being drunk or drugged doesn't negatively impact you at all, and you're immune to the poisoned condition". The former makes the decision to drink more of an interesting choice and can create mechanical interactions - expect players with that race to then pursue ways to beat back the drawback, with magic items and feat choices and poo poo - that result in a cooler, more balanced ability, and the latter puts it more in line with existing racial passives and makes it a much more situational advantage. Either way, the incentive to be blackout drunk 24 hours a day is diminished. 2. To deal with the player, you talk to them like an adult. It should be a one-on-one conversation, but also not an accusatory, threatening, or overly critical one; tell them that you understand why they're playing this way - it's a powerful ability and kind of funny - but that the way they're handling it is kind of disruptive. There's a chance *they don't even know they're annoying other people or loving up the story you're trying to tell*, and will immediately be like "oh, poo poo, I didn't realize, I'll cut it out". There's also a chance they'll get pissed and throw a tantrum. It really depends on who that player is, how mature they are, etc, which is information we don't have. The secret to making it go well, though, is to always frame things as "I'll work with you". That is "I'll help you find a way to make a nerfed version of this ability work", or "I'll help you rebuild your character as a different race in a way that isn't disruptive". This is basic negotiating stuff; find common ground with the player and make them feel like you're on their side, because (if you're the DM) you should be. Your goal is to facilitate everyone having a good time, including that player. Don't try to fix it by doing stuff like making whiskey bottles in your game randomly contain deadly poison for no reason. There's a lot of bad outcomes to that, but if nothing else, it could just mean they waste twice as much time (now they test the alcohol they steal!) Baku fucked around with this message at 20:48 on Sep 5, 2020 |
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Sep 5, 2020 20:44
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Playing as a rogue is often treated by new players as both an excuse and mandate to take everything that isn't nailed down. You can usually explain that isn't how it works and that rogues actually do a lot of other stuff and aren't all undersocialized kleptomaniacs.
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Sep 5, 2020 20:45
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One of my best friends always played a rogue when we played years and years ago and had a tendency to fall into the chaotic neutral murderhobo and steal everything cliche. Before we started the new campaign with me being the DM for the first time we had a couple of conversations, as you do when you're excited about finallyplaying again after a multi year break, and I told him quite frankly I didn't want him to play that kind of character again and explained why. It drags the game down for everyone else, basically. We explored how playing a totally different character could be fun but he really enjoys the rogue archetype, especially the sneaking and burst damage that's a part of it. Taking the lead in exploring new spaces, disarming traps, etc. We figured out a compromise that really works for all of us. He started out as a CN rogue as usual, but instead of the murderhobo "I'll do what I feel like in the moment" type he's now playing a character that grew up on the streets, getting involved with gangs, etc for survival but as he's matured he's starting to realise there's more to life than just fending for yourself. He's chaotic neutral not because he just wants to do what he wants, but because he genuinely doesn't have a moral compass. He's looking to his fellow adventurers for guidance to learn how to be a good person, and while he still makes mistakes and has a lot to learn his heart is in the right place. As a consequence he's taken levels in fighter, learning from the barbarian, and chosen the arcane archer archetype to emulate the bard and warlock somewhat. He really wanted to play a ranged character with magical poo poo while keeping the sneak attack mechanic, so that's a perfect solution. It's made for some awesome roleplay moments, not in small part because we actively discuss his choices out of game and openly talk about what we can do to make things the best for everyone. Communication is key, is what I'm saying.
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Sep 5, 2020 21:01
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Help, I need ideas for an NPC ork wizard that isn’t really a wizard. I know we did this once but I can’t find it. Hold person is just grappling, summon animals is tipping out a sack of badgers, fireball is a Molotov cocktail, etc.
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Sep 5, 2020 22:28
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please knock Mom! posted:believe me, they'll just use it for infinite mayo a guy in my group got an alchemist jug and just drank squid ink out of it the whole time over multiple sessions on one hand it was a rousing success as a character building tool, on the other hand super gross and distracting
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Sep 5, 2020 22:41
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Kaysette posted:Help, I need ideas for an NPC ork wizard that isn’t really a wizard. I know we did this once but I can’t find it. Hold person is just grappling, summon animals is tipping out a sack of badgers, fireball is a Molotov cocktail, etc. Misty Step is blowing a stogie cloud and walking through it.
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Sep 5, 2020 22:50
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Kaysette posted:Help, I need ideas for an NPC ork wizard that isn’t really a wizard. I know we did this once but I can’t find it. Hold person is just grappling, summon animals is tipping out a sack of badgers, fireball is a Molotov cocktail, etc. Mirror image is like four orcs kinda dressed like him. Shield is a goblin held in front of him. Stinking Cloud is self explanatory. Fear is him flashing you.
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Sep 5, 2020 23:37
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Tensers floating disc is six goblins carrying a shield.
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Sep 6, 2020 00:28
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Kaysette posted:Help, I need ideas for an NPC ork wizard that isn’t really a wizard. I know we did this once but I can’t find it. Hold person is just grappling, summon animals is tipping out a sack of badgers, fireball is a Molotov cocktail, etc. Shield is a shield.
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Sep 6, 2020 00:48
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For more serious suggestions: Mold Earth is just kicking a divot out of the ground. Poison spray is a belch. Infestation is just normal. Thunderclap is stomping on the ground once. Cause Fear WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGHH! Expeditious Retreat AUAUAUAUAAAAAGH! Jump, Longstrider: I am big and strong. Shield is a Shield. Blindness/Deafness: Pocket sand/Open palm slapping them on both ears at once. Dragon's Breath: Taking a tindertwig to your methane breath. Web: It's a net
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Sep 6, 2020 01:00
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Magic Missile is just some thrown daggers, but he screams "MAGIC MISSILE" when he throws them. Melf's Acid Arrow is the same thing, but the somatic and material components are that he elaborately dips the point in a jar of acid first. Alarm is a small dog. Time Stop's just ketamine.
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Sep 6, 2020 01:06
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However, if he has cause to make a melee basic attack he unceremoniously conjures a Mordenkainen's Sword to do it with, and makes no comment about it.
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Sep 6, 2020 01:08
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this is all extremely good poo poo, ty
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Sep 6, 2020 01:11
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Feather fall is a parachute Magic mouth is just his ventriloquist act
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Sep 6, 2020 01:18
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So if I become Large and then cast Spirit Guardians, is my aura unreasonably huge like I'd hope?
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Sep 6, 2020 01:24
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Mage Hand is just a very tiny goblin he throws around. Enemy NPCs ignore it because he's so tiny, maybe friendly NPCs mention it.
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Sep 6, 2020 01:26
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Dramij's Instant Summons is really just a set of complicated cargo pants with a bunch of neat stuff in the pockets. Hold Person is like four dudes who wrestle you to the ground. Haste is meth.
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Sep 6, 2020 01:27
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Friends / Charm Person are the orc shouting "WE FRIENDS NOW" and staring at someone until they smile sheepishly.
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Sep 6, 2020 01:35
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Banishment: he bashes you on the head, knocking you in to the ground some considerable depth. Faithful hound: the ork bites you and blames it on the invisible dog. Fire shield: Just covers himself in lamp oil and lights it. Intellect fortress: The Ork bonks himself on the head to keep the mean thoughts out.
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Sep 6, 2020 01:40
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Sleep, Confusion, and a bunch of other similar spells are just him being extra careful about exactly how hard he's hitting you in the head.
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Sep 6, 2020 01:44
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 Passwall Azza Bamboo fucked around with this message at 01:54 on Sep 6, 2020 |
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Sep 6, 2020 01:50
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Tasha’s Hideous Laughter is him slipping on a banana peel.
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Sep 6, 2020 02:59
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Need some advice on tinkering with a class. Some background. In my campaign Teiflings are from not-Egypt where necromancy is normal and accepted. Many people will sell their bodies to be used after they are dead. It’s just a body so no big deal. A player thought this was cool and wanted to be a noble who purchased a contract to have an undead be a bodyguard. This player was thinking of being a chain pact warlock with his undead bodyguard being in place of a familiar. I like the idea but am trying to brainstorm the mechanics of doing this. Also I’m trying to think of cool ways to connect the warlock pact with the contract he bought for the undead. Should I just take the chain pact rules and play as is, just substituting the stats in for an undead of my choice? He had said he thought it would be cool to upgrade his bodyguards equipment. Would gearing up his undead bodyguard be a bit too powerful? Any cool ideas in general would be welcome.
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Sep 6, 2020 03:02
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Nash posted:Need some advice on tinkering with a class. The undead bodyguard is actually just an orc pretending to be a mummy.
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Sep 6, 2020 03:13
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Nash posted:Need some advice on tinkering with a class. the next book coming soon is going to go into great detail on the rules for sidekicks for this exact situation op. you can probably use the ua for now and adjust the level down though
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Sep 6, 2020 03:36
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denimgorilla posted:The undead bodyguard is actually just an orc pretending to be a mummy. I would be incredibly ok with this.
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Sep 6, 2020 03:38
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Nash posted:Need some advice on tinkering with a class. Then just have it that he owns a corpse. Azza Bamboo fucked around with this message at 03:57 on Sep 6, 2020 |
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Sep 6, 2020 03:41
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Azza Bamboo posted:Allow him to take Animate Dead as a spell, and then offer the Wizard Necromancy school features as eldritch invocations at the same level requirements. Animate Dead on a short rest is a pretty big deal - I’d be very careful with that.
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Sep 6, 2020 03:45
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Arcsech posted:Animate Dead on a short rest is a pretty big deal - I’d be very careful with that. Fair point, it should be Animate Dead using a warlock spell slot once a long rest, perhaps as an eldritch invocation. That would follow the form of a lot of Invocations.
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Sep 6, 2020 03:48
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Arcsech posted:Animate Dead on a short rest is a pretty big deal - I’d be very careful with that. Maybe he can only target that one specific corpse with it.
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Sep 6, 2020 04:00
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denimgorilla posted:Maybe he can only target that one specific corpse with it. More of this. In my setting you don’t have to have any sort of magical ability to have an undead servant. You just paid the fee to get an undead worker/bodyguard/whatever. Mostly I don’t want to make it too powerful for him to essentially be playing two characters. I had though about having the bodyguard level up like a ranger pet but didn’t know how much that would work. I haven’t been DMing an incredibly long time so balance is something I will admit is not my strong suit.
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Sep 6, 2020 05:20
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Not really commenting on what others have said but I think chain pact supplying a zombie instead of an imp or whatever is fairly balanced on its own, before the question of gearing comes up. You're trading the recon capability of the imp for the zombies combat prowess. A pain-free solution COULD be to just copy the Artificer Steel Defender stats, but you can always come up with a more creative answer as you please.
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Sep 6, 2020 06:13
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Oh poo poo, I hadn’t thought of that. I’ll definitely have to look at steel defender.
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Sep 6, 2020 06:27
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For the preliminary one shot here's my spell selection for my (level 7 for the one shot) sorcerer using the psionic soul origin: Cantrips: Mage Hand (60' thanks to telekinetic feat) Mold Earth (I figure this is useful to creating obstacles/cover) Message Mind Sliver (from UA) quote:Enchantment cantrip and Fire Bolt Level 1: Mage Armor Shield Catapult (My DM has indicated he'll be flexible with this, so this is my main damage dealer in my mind with the right ammo) Level 2: Detect Thoughts Suggestion Mind Thrust (also UA) quote:Casting Time: 1 action Level 3: Clairvoyance Level 4: Confusion The same person who told me, "We're just going to ignore your character if you decide to switch" and "We shouldn't allow Mind Thrust because it's better than Hold Person" has also decided to say this (context being me talking about taking catapult): quote:me: If I want Catapult for the pure utility it'd be a clay jar of caltrops/ball bearings and later flasks of oil + fire bolt The purpose of the one shot, is to test drive our characters to make sure we'll have fun with them so we don't have anyone needing to radically revamp their concepts during the campaign. Is there something I'm not seeing here or is he being a munchkin valuing optimal min-maxing above all else? The DM did remark in surprise that I didn't take Firebolt OR Fireball for a 3rd level spell but I don't really see the point? Any group of enemies that fireball would be effective against I think the party should be able to handle just fine (iirc its going to be 1 warlock, 1 sorc, 1 cleric, 1 gish-wizard, 1 scholar, and a bard), and I don't really the damage being worth it when something like clairvoyance is probably more useful to know whats going on in the dungeon and I can always up cast suggestion or mind thrust as control spells. I could maybe swap Suggestion with Lightning Bolt and then use my Psionic ability to learn Suggestion if need be, but I feel like if I rely on damage spells for blasting I'll just run out, and I only have what, 5 sorcery points? That's 1 level 3 spell slot or 2 level 1 spell slots; I don't see blasting being effective when suggestion just might be better to disable an enemy instead. My thinking about the flavour of my character is being like a mind affecting psionicist so I'm generally thinking Control + Telekinesis tomfoolery for fun (i.e Catapult, Mage Hand and so on). e: I think that Blur and Mirror Image kinda eat up more of my very limited pool of spells known, only really help me for that one encounter and doesn't really guarantee my safety anyways. Although Expeditious Retreat does seem stronger in the "prevention is better than cure" department. But then it eats either Shield or Mage Armor. So the way I see it, either I prioritize my own safety above all else, and don't get to really act out my intended flavour/theme; or prioritize my safety and still not really be useful in encounters; or I can sacrifice some of my safety, stay to my theme, and be useful. Raenir Salazar fucked around with this message at 07:03 on Sep 6, 2020 |
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Sep 6, 2020 06:56
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I mean, if it's just a one shot, nbd, but either fireball or a fireball stand-in are ... pretty much mandatory for full casters. The utility behind taking fireball is not necessarily that you're *going* to use it that often, but that you *have it*. It's a panic button. I had to push my party's panic button tonight, as a matter of fact (Horn of Valhalla after half our party went down in three rounds - 3d4+3 CR2 berserkers is a great rearguard). Fire Bolt is also a Real Good Cantrip. Catapult is fun, but it's situational - lots of creatures have good dex saves, it's not something you should be relying on. To paraphrase an excellent set of strategic maxims: 1. Always have a backup plan. 2. If you have a fireball, you have a backup plan. "90% of a sorcerer's spells are to save themselves" is bullshit, and your friend is telling on themselves. Your party should be picking up the slack, defending the casters. Admittedly, it seems like you're running entirely without martials, if you don't count the Cleric (and I don't), which is a very unusual party composition - honestly, I *kind of* see your friend's point, in that your party composition means you're going to have to spend a lot more time in danger than any of you squishy fucks should be, and you're taking up a lot of your spell list with "clever" stuff that you may or may not ever get a chance to use. Out of your entire spell list at 2nd level or above, the only one I feel is a solid choice is Mind Thrust, and *maybe* Clairvoyance if the rest of your spells list wasn't, again, "clever".
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Sep 6, 2020 07:29
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I mean if lots of things have good dex saves that's an argument against Fireball/Lightning Bolt right? In terms of my own immediate defences either Suggestion or Mind Thrust could help extricate me from a potential big ugly with a pointy stick. I feel like the problem is there is a lack of options at 3rd level that fit the theme. Which is like being a psionicist/force user. Which Lightning Bolt could fit under to lean into the Sith force powers thing, but really I'd prefer something that was either force damage, psychic damage, or was an Enchantment/Divination spell. So like to me, the entire point of the build is clever options because I'm a psion in an D&D edition that doesn't have a full caster psionicist class. I could take Fear, but I need to drop either Confusion (potentially losing my most powerful save or lose spell) or drop one of my second level spells. I could maybe just drop mage armor or shield or both and take Expeditious Retreat and then take I think Fear? Fear seems like a good panic button option but the range seems bleh without taking Distant Spell to make up for it. With Expeditious Retreat instead of Mage Armor/Shield my strategy basically becomes "Don't get Hit" / "Keep my Distance" while using Fire Bolt and its 120' range or Catapult to snipe at enemies. e: Another issue I have I guess is a fundamental issue with the concept of a "panic button", because then I'm never using the spell until a moment arrives where I feel like its worth using. While I don't quite have the same value attached to the current spell slots as they are and could see using them whenever as the situation arises. Like if the party wants a full caster that can hit the panic button I kinda feel like I shouldn't be the one in the roll just because I'm a full caster. Raenir Salazar fucked around with this message at 07:54 on Sep 6, 2020 |
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Sep 6, 2020 07:44
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Correcting for spell slots, Catapult as a third-level spell does 5d8 bludgeoning (average: 22.5) to a single target within 90 feet (or 150, depending on how you interpret the spell and if you get lucky or prepare). On a successful dex save, they take no damage. Fireball does 8d6 fire damage (average: 28) to absolutely everything in a 20-foot sphere centered within 150 feet of you. On a successful dex save, they still take half damage. It's more damage, regardless of their save, to even a single target - and potentially to *many* targets if you pick your moment correctly. I get your commitment to theme, but suffice it to say I also get where your friend is coming from. From your comments above, I'm honestly not sure you have a really good grasp on 5e combat. Maybe talk with your GM about reflavoring some better spells to fit your theme. The fact of the matter is that psionics aren't *really* a thing in 5e, and that's a whole nother conversation.
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Sep 6, 2020 08:02
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I kind of wonder if - given your disinterest in splashy damage spells and desire to pick up a broad range of utility "psychic" powers - you might be happier playing this character as a Wizard or Lore Bard instead of a Sorcerer?
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Sep 6, 2020 08:40
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Raenir Salazar posted:For the preliminary one shot here's my spell selection for my (level 7 for the one shot) sorcerer using the psionic soul origin: I'd just like to point out- you're pretty much ignoring the "Psionic Discovery" class feature. Spells like detect thoughts are very in flavour for a psychic, but probably not so vital that you need it taking up your limited spells known. The psionic discovery feature is (in my reading of the design intent) meant to let you do that stuff on the fly while still taking a more powerful and universal standard loadout. Even still though, it will let you get those defensive buff spells like mirror image that you are worried about missing out on. EDIT: Sorry, for some reason I thought Psionic Discovery was Illusion, Enchantment and Divination- but it's just Enchantment and Divination. So no using it to snag Mirror Image on the fly. Undead Hippo fucked around with this message at 09:04 on Sep 6, 2020 |
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Sep 6, 2020 08:47
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Baku posted:I kind of wonder if - given your disinterest in splashy damage spells and desire to pick up a broad range of utility "psychic" powers - you might be happier playing this character as a Wizard or Lore Bard instead of a Sorcerer? I won't be able to shove people off buildings though. Or have the psionic talent die. There's a reason why I went Sorceror was because I was considering Wizard and picking only sufficiently Jedi/Sith appropriately spells and then I reread the Psionic Soul bit in Psionics Revisited and it clicked for me. Remora posted:Correcting for spell slots, Catapult as a third-level spell does 5d8 bludgeoning (average: 22.5) to a single target within 90 feet (or 150, depending on how you interpret the spell and if you get lucky or prepare). On a successful dex save, they take no damage. What you say about damage is true, but I question why I should be the one dealing that damage; and most importantly if I don't really have a good grasp in 5e combat, even more so because I'm clearly shouldn't be the one expected to contribute in that regard, because I don't feel like I'm really going to be able to accurately determine a good moment when to use an AoE damage dealing spell, especially since I'm going ham on "clever" utility spells I have even fewer slots available for them. Basically looking at it another way, by the time we get into combat, I will likely have only three level 1 slots, I will presumably have used Suggestion and Detect Thoughts once each for information gathering purposes leading up to an encounter, so that's only 1 level 2 slot remaining, from there I have three level 3 slots but I probably used Clairvoyance at least once to scout out what's behind the big door leading to the big encounter. So that's 2 slots at level 3, and then 1 slot at level 4. Although one thing I just realized is Clairvoyance has a casting time of 10 minutes, so while it fits the theme I am thinking Fear might actually be the better choice. And Fear would at least be AoE even if the Range leaves much to be desired without either investing in Spell Sniper or picking Distant Spell instead of either Heighten Spell or Quicken. At early levels I am suspecting that Quicken is a great way to burn out of all my resources a little too quickly as it is, so maybe it's better to pick Distant Spell and insure I am well out of range? 60' Cone of Fear seems pretty baller to me. But I'm not really interested to be the damage dealer, I just want to chuck swords at people and push them off buildings or into sufficiently deep holes and occasionally do the jedi hand swoosh to get them to bother someone else. As for reflavouring, I tried to go down that route, the DM while maybe willing to be flexible as to what a "mind themed" spell is for the purpose of Psionic Discovery is not going to make Fireball Force/Psychic damage. Undead Hippo posted:I'd just like to point out- you're pretty much ignoring the "Psionic Discovery" class feature. Spells like detect thoughts are very in flavour for a psychic, but probably not so vital that you need it taking up your limited spells known. The psionic discovery feature is (in my reading of the design intent) meant to let you do that stuff on the fly while still taking a more powerful and universal standard loadout. Right Psionic Discovery would be great. The only issue though is that in terms of flavour I want to grab detect thoughts until picking up the Telepathy feat because that's the background of my character that they suddenly started reading minds as a child and it scarred them, so I feel like for my theme I need Detect Thoughts and Suggestion up. The important limitation though is that Psionic Discovery only gives me one additional spell known for the duration, so while this gives me some flexibility, I feel like Detect Thoughts/Suggestion are going to be pretty much always useful, while in actuality combat spells like Fear, Sleep (and most importantly Clairvoyance since I just keyed into its less than stellar casting time) and so on I could take instead via Psionic Discovery. What I think I'll do is switch Clairvoyance for Lightning Bolt and then pick up Fear via Psionic Discovery unless the party decides we could really use a radar. And yeah looking at it again, as long as I have my psionic talent die available there seems like there's no limit to the number of times I use it, so that's really helpful even if in the end I do feel like I need to be locked into some of my choices due to how I am envisioning the character. e: To add, it's possible the DM might allow non-enchantment/non-divination. The first sentence is "You can unlock the ability to cast a mind-oriented sorcerer spell you don’t already know." and the DM has indicated they are willing to be flexible on this. So maybe they can let me pick up spells as long as there's a justifiable psionic/mind related flavour to the spell. Illusion spells seem likely plausible. e2: UA has a Psionic damage spell at 3rd level, Psionic Blast. I could see if they're willing to let me take this, it seems very slightly less damage (5d8 vs 8d6) than Fireball but it pushes people who fail their dex save (weird for a mind spell to affect dex instead of int) 20 feet back and knocks them prone. Which is exactly what I'm going for. It's also a 30' range though, so this again involves some investment to not put me in danger of people with sharp sticks. Raenir Salazar fucked around with this message at 09:24 on Sep 6, 2020 |
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Sep 6, 2020 09:10
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