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Son of Rodney
Feb 22, 2006

ohmygodohmygodohmygod

RareAcumen posted:

They had another update recently that adds all kinds of old school options that're basically cheats like invincibility, one-hit kills, damage reduction, faster energy gain, snap aim tracking and such so if you're really just interested in the story, fire it up again and tweak it till you literally cant die and steamroll everything at your leisure.

That is actually exactly what I needed, Thanks for the Info!

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Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised.
I feel one of the more underrated styles of games is ones which take an established series with its own distinctive genre trappings and traits, and then explore that setting faithfully depicted from the perspective of a different genre. Command and Conquer Renegade is rather beloved for that, I think, and it helps that a RTS setting is defined by distinct kinds of units, vehicles and buildings. Apparently Halo was originally designed as a RTS, which explains a lot. (and came full circle with Halo Wars) Tales from the Borderlands is quite liked because while the Borderlands games have their own problems, there's something interestingly meta about exploring that setting with its trappings and equipment from the perspective of characters inhabiting a different genre and solving problems in a different way.

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010


Ignore my posts!
I'm aggressively wrong about everything!

Ghost Leviathan posted:

I feel one of the more underrated styles of games is ones which take an established series with its own distinctive genre trappings and traits, and then explore that setting faithfully depicted from the perspective of a different genre. Command and Conquer Renegade is rather beloved for that, I think, and it helps that a RTS setting is defined by distinct kinds of units, vehicles and buildings. Apparently Halo was originally designed as a RTS, which explains a lot. (and came full circle with Halo Wars) Tales from the Borderlands is quite liked because while the Borderlands games have their own problems, there's something interestingly meta about exploring that setting with its trappings and equipment from the perspective of characters inhabiting a different genre and solving problems in a different way.

This only works if the series is still active at the time, though. If it's not, then you just piss people off with stuff like Banjo-Kazooie: Nuts & Bolts, Left Behind (which was a Front Mission game, not that you'd know), Metroid Prime Federation Force, or The Bureau: XCOM Declassified (although they announced Enemy Unknown soon after).

It doesn't even matter if the game is good--I think Nuts & Bolts' gameplay has been redeemed by history. If you revive a dormant franchise with a totally different genre, it doesn't go down well.

Lunchmeat Larry
Nov 3, 2012

Ghost Leviathan posted:

I feel one of the more underrated styles of games is ones which take an established series with its own distinctive genre trappings and traits, and then explore that setting faithfully depicted from the perspective of a different genre. Command and Conquer Renegade is rather beloved for that, I think, and it helps that a RTS setting is defined by distinct kinds of units, vehicles and buildings. Apparently Halo was originally designed as a RTS, which explains a lot. (and came full circle with Halo Wars) Tales from the Borderlands is quite liked because while the Borderlands games have their own problems, there's something interestingly meta about exploring that setting with its trappings and equipment from the perspective of characters inhabiting a different genre and solving problems in a different way.
Always reminds me that Baldur's Gate was originally going to be an RTS

OutOfPrint
Apr 9, 2009

Fun Shoe

Lunchmeat Larry posted:

Always reminds me that Baldur's Gate was originally going to be an RTS

That's oddly close to how D&D came to be. The premise was to take the larger scale wargames Gygax and crew were playing and reduce them down to one character per person.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised.

Cleretic posted:

This only works if the series is still active at the time, though. If it's not, then you just piss people off with stuff like Banjo-Kazooie: Nuts & Bolts, Left Behind (which was a Front Mission game, not that you'd know), Metroid Prime Federation Force, or The Bureau: XCOM Declassified (although they announced Enemy Unknown soon after).

It doesn't even matter if the game is good--I think Nuts & Bolts' gameplay has been redeemed by history. If you revive a dormant franchise with a totally different genre, it doesn't go down well.

Oh, yeah, that's definitely a key thing. I loved Nuts and Bolts but that's because it was basically the best Lego game ever made, and had a janky enough physics engine to be the best kinds of exploitable.

I mean more like, settings where you play as what might be a NPC in the 'main' series with your own set of rules and genre trappings, it becomes all kinds of fun to solve problems from a completely different perspective while other characters still play by theirs. I think one of the best bits is that when you meet Zer0 you can choose to identify as a fellow Vault Hunter, which actually has a meaningful effect down the line.

OutOfPrint posted:

That's oddly close to how D&D came to be. The premise was to take the larger scale wargames Gygax and crew were playing and reduce them down to one character per person.

Yeah, a lot makes sense about D&D when you keep that in mind, including that 'wizards' were reskinned siege weapons.

Captain Hygiene
Sep 17, 2007

You mess with the crabbo...



Ghost Leviathan posted:

Yeah, a lot makes sense about D&D when you keep that in mind, including that 'wizards' were reskinned siege weapons.

:lmao: I knew the general history but not that detail. Anthropomorphized trebuchet waifu coming up in my next campaign :swoon:

Preem Palver
Jul 5, 2007

OutOfPrint posted:

That's oddly close to how D&D came to be. The premise was to take the larger scale wargames Gygax and crew were playing and reduce them down to one character per person.

And then Warhammer 40k did the opposite, going from a pseudo-rpg solely about small scale battles to a more standard wargame over the years. The first edition used a GM to administer the game, had far more character customization, tons of weird alien people, beasts, and plants unrelated to the major factions, and much more in-depth psyker powers, chaos mutations, and scenario setups. It was a way to put all their various scifi minis under the umbrella of one game as Games Workshop continued their shift from being a UK distributor of D&D and other properties towards having their own flagship games, IP, and visually distinct model lines.
Over the years most of that was dropped as the game was updated, army sizes increased, and the hodgepodge of single metal miniatures created on a whim were replaced by multi-model plastic kits and more unified miniature design to fit into the various factions. It's a lot easier to keep track of tons of variables when there's a third person whose role is to keep track of everything and armies consist of 10-15 dudes and a tank or other big thing, less so when each side has dozens of bodies and there's not a third person whose job is to look up/roll everything on a variety of massive charts and keep the players informed.

Tangentially related: GW actually designed their own D&D monsters back in their early days when they were a distributor, and some ended up being added to subsequent official D&D books.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7qQpyRfHiU&t=384s

Sally
Jan 9, 2007


Don't post Small Dash!

Ghost Leviathan posted:

I feel one of the more underrated styles of games is ones which take an established series with its own distinctive genre trappings and traits, and then explore that setting faithfully depicted from the perspective of a different genre. Command and Conquer Renegade is rather beloved for that, I think, and it helps that a RTS setting is defined by distinct kinds of units, vehicles and buildings. Apparently Halo was originally designed as a RTS, which explains a lot. (and came full circle with Halo Wars) Tales from the Borderlands is quite liked because while the Borderlands games have their own problems, there's something interestingly meta about exploring that setting with its trappings and equipment from the perspective of characters inhabiting a different genre and solving problems in a different way.

Killzone did this with KZ: Liberation... a top-down shooter adventure that bridged the story of the big budget FPS console exclusives. it was a lot of fun!

John Murdoch
May 19, 2009

I can tune a fish.
Oh yeah in my book this transcends little thing, but in Control when you shoot enemies they...actually react! They stumble, they fall over, it's great. The more armor they have the less it happens from basic shooting, but gently caress me do too many games not bother with the concept at all.

It also helps the pistol feel nice and punchy. You also don't see a lot of games bother to keep their "basic" weapon relevant, let alone have it be a pistol.

Smirking_Serpent
Aug 27, 2009

Grip (the pistol) definitely feels really lame when the game starts out, but as I played more and more I grew to appreciate it. It's certainly not flashy, but it reliably and efficiently deals damage at almost any range. It's easy enough to hit ground enemies with any weapon form, but the flying enemies really require grip or pierce, and pierce has to charge and only has two shots. Grip is a workhorse through the whole campaign and the DLCs.

Captain Hygiene
Sep 17, 2007

You mess with the crabbo...



Smirking_Serpent posted:

Grip (the pistol) definitely feels really lame when the game starts out, but as I played more and more I grew to appreciate it. It's certainly not flashy, but it reliably and efficiently deals damage at almost any range. It's easy enough to hit ground enemies with any weapon form, but the flying enemies really require grip or pierce, and pierce has to charge and only has two shots. Grip is a workhorse through the whole campaign and the DLCs.

Yeah, pretty much this. It's a really good solid standby while you pick the other weapon based on circumstance. My little thing is how the weapons are just the same piece of equipment reforming itself and its projectiles, I still sit there swapping weapons sometimes just to see the transform animation, even after beating the game a couple times.

Mamkute
Sep 2, 2018
I like it when people leave diary pages lying around so that the player can learn details about their characters.

pray for my aunt
Feb 13, 2012

14980c8b8a96fd9e279796a61cf82c9c
Pierce was my workhorse for the entire game. Just use throw or shield when it's reloading and you'll be sleepwalking through random enemy encounters.

Sandwich Anarchist
Sep 12, 2008
I wish that Control opened up the cooler mods for powers earlier in the game, like shield rushing and such. Once you are late game, combat is a fuckin blast and you feel like a God damned super hero.

Push El Burrito
May 9, 2006

Soiled Meat
In Avengers when you get Captain America back every room he goes to he puts his hand on the scanner and walks on in. Except Kamala's, he knocks on her door :3:

John Murdoch
May 19, 2009

I can tune a fish.

Sandwich Anarchist posted:

I wish that Control opened up the cooler mods for powers earlier in the game, like shield rushing and such. Once you are late game, combat is a fuckin blast and you feel like a God damned super hero.

Yeah my overall feeling is that some of the early complaints about mechanical cruft were overblown, but just barely. Everything could've stood to be streamlined and some design choices have me scratching my head.

Weird Pumpkin
Oct 7, 2007

Push El Burrito posted:

In Avengers when you get Captain America back every room he goes to he puts his hand on the scanner and walks on in. Except Kamala's, he knocks on her door :3:

Is that game good? I seem to remember all the advanced press seeming kind of weak, but I love me a good super hero romp

Len
Jan 21, 2008

Pouches, bandages, shoulderpad, cyber-eye...

Bitchin'!


Elvis_Maximus posted:

Is that game good? I seem to remember all the advanced press seeming kind of weak, but I love me a good super hero romp

I got it free from Verizon so I'm biased since it cost me no money, but yes it's good if you want a mindless bash em up

Captain Hygiene
Sep 17, 2007

You mess with the crabbo...



Already in love with the new Control DLC. (I'm not even sure it's spoiler-worthy, but whatever) I like that darkness becomes a mechanic again soon after you start hearing from Alan Wake, and it really points out how much more interesting the gameplay is compared to that game. I liked it, but flashlight+gun wasn't enough to sustain a whole game - now, when you need a light, you just telekinetically grab a worklamp and float it along beside you (e: while it makes little ghosty noises :3:) for a while as part of your standard god-tier moveset. Feels so good to get back into it :hellyeah:

Captain Hygiene has a new favorite as of 22:00 on Sep 7, 2020

yook
Mar 11, 2001

YES, CLIFFORD THE BIG RED DOG IS ABSOLUTELY A KAIJU
One of the passengers you can find in Spiritfarer is a D&D nerd. When you build his house his bed is just a pile of laundry

Necrothatcher
Mar 26, 2005




I just remembered that the final boss in Sekiro pulls a glock out of nowhere. What a game... :allears:

Al Cu Ad Solte
Nov 30, 2005
Searching for
a righteous cause
I've been on a major stealth game kick and have pretty much been playing them non stop for the past two months, which of course led me through the Splinter Cell series. They're all poo poo except for Chaos Theory, which just might be the best stealth game ever made.

It is chock full of little things, and does a great job of building up the characters that you barely see just by the casual conversations they have, not just between Sam and his support back at HQ but the guards.

But my fav convo has to be in the Displace offices after you plant backdoors for Grim in each of the servers. After the last one, Grim goes "Thanks Sam, now I'll be able to poke around Displace's dirty laundry all I want."

Sam: "Awwww."

Grim: "What's wrong?"

Sam: "My laundry....I totally forgot...."

Just brilliant tiny character moments like that to make them feel three dimensional. Like yes, Sam is a super spy, but he also has laundry to do. :allears:

Philippe
Aug 9, 2013

(she/her)
I remember Conviction being alright in its ridiculousness, but maybe that's just nostalgia goggles.

Something about, "the villain wants to become president by killing the old one"?

Philippe has a new favorite as of 11:51 on Sep 8, 2020

A Worrying Warlock
Sep 21, 2009

Al Cu Ad Solte posted:

I've been on a major stealth game kick and have pretty much been playing them non stop for the past two months, which of course led me through the Splinter Cell series. They're all poo poo except for Chaos Theory, which just might be the best stealth game ever made.

It is chock full of little things, and does a great job of building up the characters that you barely see just by the casual conversations they have, not just between Sam and his support back at HQ but the guards.

But my fav convo has to be in the Displace offices after you plant backdoors for Grim in each of the servers. After the last one, Grim goes "Thanks Sam, now I'll be able to poke around Displace's dirty laundry all I want."

Sam: "Awwww."

Grim: "What's wrong?"

Sam: "My laundry....I totally forgot...."

Just brilliant tiny character moments like that to make them feel three dimensional. Like yes, Sam is a super spy, but he also has laundry to do. :allears:

A lot of that can be explained with two words: Clint Hocking. Dude is both a great designer and critic who manages to put insane amounts of thought into the way his game's systems reinforce the setting and story he's trying to tell. He wrote massive parts of the script for the first two SC games, and Chaos Theory put him in the seat of lead designer.

He then went on to make Far Cry 2, which IMHO is one of the best fps games of it's decade due to the way it really tied it's systems and story together. It's definitely a better adaptation of Heart of Darkness than the rather hamfisted Spec Ops: The Line was, letting the player's transformation into a Kurtz-like figure happen naturally rather than through scripted set pieces and windowdressing. Afterwards, Hocking kind of disappeared of the earth as a designer, doing time as an indie and employee of everything from Lucas Arts to Valve but never designing any of his own games.

Watch Dogs Legion is set to be his first title in over a decade, and that alone has me interested in a series that I never picked up before.

Neddy Seagoon
Oct 12, 2012

"Hi Everybody!"

Sobatchja Morda posted:

Watch Dogs Legion is set to be his first title in over a decade, and that alone has me interested in a series that I never picked up before.

I was looking forward to Legion as I enjoyed WD2, but learning that makes me a lot more excited for it :stwoon:.

Also go play Watch Dogs 2 in the meantime. It's a great game in its own right, and you don't need to know anything about the first game to get into it. Also the first game is baaaad.

Ruffian Price
Sep 17, 2016

Sobatchja Morda posted:

Watch Dogs Legion is set to be his first title in over a decade
:piss:

I expected it to be another open world district liberation simulator with semi-procedural cutscenes but now I'm stoked

Did he do work on Conviction? Because "game's systems reinforce the setting and story" immediately made me think of the part where the projected objective markers and mark&execute mechanic change to reflect Sam's mental state

Ruffian Price has a new favorite as of 12:21 on Sep 8, 2020

A Worrying Warlock
Sep 21, 2009

Neddy Seagoon posted:

I was looking forward to Legion as I enjoyed WD2, but learning that makes me a lot more excited for it :stwoon:.

Also go play Watch Dogs 2 in the meantime. It's a great game in its own right, and you don't need to know anything about the first game to get into it. Also the first game is baaaad.

Definitely going to try that. I saw that I had the first game in my library from a giveaway years ago and decided to try it. I know I gave it one short try a long time ago, but bounced off super hard because it just seemed grim and joyless.

This time, my expectations low, I am enjoying it more. There's some fun mechanics in there, even though they're underutilized, and Chicago is a fun setting when it's raining and thundering. It's a throwback to older Assassin's Creed games, but way more cluttered and chaotic. I think it would be more fondley remembered...

...if its story and protagonist weren't utter crap. Aiden Pearce is a serious contender for the most unlikeable protagonist in recent history, no matter how much the game tries to characterize him as some cool vigilante superhero. When we meet him, he's robbing people blind and acts surprised when he makes a few enemies. Okay, fair enough - that's a cyberpunk cliché. But then, when it comes back to bite him in the rear end and his niece gets killed, he decides to go full psychopath. His actions get his sister kidnapped, his nephew traumatized and countless others hurt.
When we first take control of him, he's torturing the man who executed the hit on his family. Again, fair enough. Then we cut to him brooding at his computer, deciding he has to relax a little bit and stepping outside to spy on all of his neighbours before selecting some small fry criminals to violently beat-up/murder. Meanwhile, he'll suck dry the bank account of anyone with the misfortune to stand in his general vicinity.

We are now five minutes into this game, and Pearce has already shown he's ethically inferior to the bloody Punisher.

Skip ahead half an hour, and our 'hero' learns that someone has been calling in vague threats to his sister. To find out who's behind this, he decides to track down the caller by hacking into a transmissiontower owned by a shady big tech company. As players, we already know that these guys are going to be the eventual bad guys - but from Pearce perspective, this is like breaking into the local AT&T building. So how does he react when he's told that the company doubled its supply of rent-a-cops? Does he decide on a brilliant technological approach, some scheme worthy of the Batman himself? Well, in his own words:

:jihad::"They doubled their security, so I better double my firepower."

He then proceeds to buy an assault rifle, fully intent on causing a massacre in a mission that is more easily finished without firing a single shot.

The game reaches the one hour mark and we must conclude that this game wants us to root for someone who's an utter psychopath.

If you think this would make the game unfun, you are absolutely right. But it does bring me to my favourite little thing...the ability to install mods that change the main character's model.

I changed my character model to that of Clara wearing Adrian's coat and pretend I'm playing Molly Millions. Just a hired gun doing jobs for a potentially insane client. The voices stay the same, but everytime Adrian starts speaking I get to imagine it's just my character's handler providing instructions or speaking to people using my character as a proxy. It's insane how much this improves the experience of the game. Pearce is still a psychopath, but the type of rich psychopath who doesn't like to get his hands dirty and doesn't always know what he's actually sending you into. Meanwhile, when things get bloody, it is because you're a hired gun that only cares about getting the job done and is free to determine a own course of actions. It removes the blatant hypocrisy that is embroided in the writing and turns it into a more interesting shade of grey. Pearce is still a self-rightious nutter, but he's not the one who steals and fights his way throughout Chicago. And you're still a murderer, but your also just a mercenary doing her job and not a superhero. Even the side-quests make more sense this way. There is little reason for Adrian Pearce to stop rescuing his sister and just gently caress off to play poker or get black-out drunk playing drinking games, but those activities make perfect sense if you look at them as things a hired operator does in their spare time between missions. And the money you get for doing missions? All part of the job, of course.

This little thing has made turned the game from depressing nonsense into a very fun amoral timewaster, like playing a lowkey prequel to Syndicate. And I can't be the only one to think that, because Legion's entire set-up seems to be leaning into a similiar lane of thought.

Ruffian Price posted:

:piss:

I expected it to be another open world district liberation simulator with semi-procedural cutscenes but now I'm stoked

Did he do work on Conviction? Because "game's systems reinforce the setting and story" immediately made me think of the part where the projected objective markers and mark&execute mechanic change to reflect Sam's mental state

He didn't work on Conviction, but I think a lot of people that worked with him in the past did. So there could definitely be some cross-contamination there.

The Moon Monster
Dec 30, 2005

Sobatchja Morda posted:

I changed my character model to that of Clara wearing Adrian's coat and pretend I'm playing Molly Millions. Just a hired gun doing jobs for a potentially insane client. The voices stay the same, but everytime Adrian starts speaking I get to imagine it's just my character's handler providing instructions or speaking to people using my character as a proxy. It's insane how much this improves the experience of the game. Pearce is still a psychopath, but the type of rich psychopath who doesn't like to get his hands dirty and doesn't always know what he's actually sending you into. Meanwhile, when things get bloody, it is because you're a hired gun that only cares about getting the job done and is free to determine a own course of actions.

It's weird that you think being a hired gun murdering scores of people for flimsy reasons on behalf of someone else makes you less of a psychopath tbh.

Neddy Seagoon
Oct 12, 2012

"Hi Everybody!"

Sobatchja Morda posted:

Definitely going to try that. I saw that I had the first game in my library from a giveaway years ago and decided to try it. I know I gave it one short try a long time ago, but bounced off super hard because it just seemed grim and joyless.

This time, my expectations low, I am enjoying it more. There's some fun mechanics in there, even though they're underutilized, and Chicago is a fun setting when it's raining and thundering. It's a throwback to older Assassin's Creed games, but way more cluttered and chaotic. I think it would be more fondley remembered...

...if its story and protagonist weren't utter crap. Aiden Pearce is a serious contender for the most unlikeable protagonist in recent history, no matter how much the game tries to characterize him as some cool vigilante superhero. When we meet him, he's robbing people blind and acts surprised when he makes a few enemies. Okay, fair enough - that's a cyberpunk cliché. But then, when it comes back to bite him in the rear end and his niece gets killed, he decides to go full psychopath. His actions get his sister kidnapped, his nephew traumatized and countless others hurt.
When we first take control of him, he's torturing the man who executed the hit on his family. Again, fair enough. Then we cut to him brooding at his computer, deciding he has to relax a little bit and stepping outside to spy on all of his neighbours before selecting some small fry criminals to violently beat-up/murder. Meanwhile, he'll suck dry the bank account of anyone with the misfortune to stand in his general vicinity.

We are now five minutes into this game, and Pearce has already shown he's ethically inferior to the bloody Punisher.

Skip ahead half an hour, and our 'hero' learns that someone has been calling in vague threats to his sister. To find out who's behind this, he decides to track down the caller by hacking into a transmissiontower owned by a shady big tech company. As players, we already know that these guys are going to be the eventual bad guys - but from Pearce perspective, this is like breaking into the local AT&T building. So how does he react when he's told that the company doubled its supply of rent-a-cops? Does he decide on a brilliant technological approach, some scheme worthy of the Batman himself? Well, in his own words:

:jihad::"They doubled their security, so I better double my firepower."

He then proceeds to buy an assault rifle, fully intent on causing a massacre in a mission that is more easily finished without firing a single shot.

The game reaches the one hour mark and we must conclude that this game wants us to root for someone who's an utter psychopath.

If you think this would make the game unfun, you are absolutely right. But it does bring me to my favourite little thing...the ability to install mods that change the main character's model.

I changed my character model to that of Clara wearing Adrian's coat and pretend I'm playing Molly Millions. Just a hired gun doing jobs for a potentially insane client. The voices stay the same, but everytime Adrian starts speaking I get to imagine it's just my character's handler providing instructions or speaking to people using my character as a proxy. It's insane how much this improves the experience of the game. Pearce is still a psychopath, but the type of rich psychopath who doesn't like to get his hands dirty and doesn't always know what he's actually sending you into. Meanwhile, when things get bloody, it is because you're a hired gun that only cares about getting the job done and is free to determine a own course of actions. It removes the blatant hypocrisy that is embroided in the writing and turns it into a more interesting shade of grey. Pearce is still a self-rightious nutter, but he's not the one who steals and fights his way throughout Chicago. And you're still a murderer, but your also just a mercenary doing her job and not a superhero. Even the side-quests make more sense this way. There is little reason for Adrian Pearce to stop rescuing his sister and just gently caress off to play poker or get black-out drunk playing drinking games, but those activities make perfect sense if you look at them as things a hired operator does in their spare time between missions. And the money you get for doing missions? All part of the job, of course.

This little thing has made turned the game from depressing nonsense into a very fun amoral timewaster, like playing a lowkey prequel to Syndicate. And I can't be the only one to think that, because Legion's entire set-up seems to be leaning into a similiar lane of thought.


He didn't work on Conviction, but I think a lot of people that worked with him in the past did. So there could definitely be some cross-contamination there.

2 I said play Watch Dogs 2 :stonklol:. The first game is utter garbage.

flatluigi
Apr 23, 2008

here come the planes

The Moon Monster posted:

It's weird that you think being a hired gun murdering scores of people for flimsy reasons on behalf of someone else makes you less of a psychopath tbh.

that's capitalism!

tight aspirations
Jul 13, 2009

Sobatchja Morda posted:

Far Cry 2, which IMHO is one of the best fps games of it's decade due to the way it really tied it's systems and story together. It's definitely a better adaptation of Heart of Darkness than the rather hamfisted Spec Ops: The Line was, letting the player's transformation into a Kurtz-like figure happen naturally rather than through scripted set pieces and windowdressing.

:psyduck:

Ruffian Price
Sep 17, 2016

maybe they're too edgy but I still listen to Jackal's tapes occasionally :shobon:

A Worrying Warlock
Sep 21, 2009
Moon Monster" post="507900837"]
It's weird that you think being a hired gun murdering scores of people for flimsy reasons on behalf of someone else makes you less of a psychopath tbh.
[/quote]

Eh, it's still bad, but there's a reason most cyberpunk stories will choose hired gun over delusional spreekiller. It makes for a better narrative, at least. Like playing Hitman instead of Postal.

Neddy Seagoon posted:

2 I said play Watch Dogs 2 :stonklol:. The first game is utter garbage.

The depths a lockdown and low-key depression will bring a man to are truly unfathomable...Also, waiting for the next paycheck before I can justify buying any new games and a morbid curiosity.


Phoneposting, so can't dive too deep into this now, but when I think of both games I feel like Spec Ops mainly makes sense in the context of it's time, those years when almost every shooter would be an overly nationalistic military parade. It's good commentary, but it doesn't get around a certain tension between the textual narrative and the experience of gameplay. For all it's deconstruction of military heroism, you still play the entire game as a squad of soldiers with revives and regenerating health. You kill scores of people because your a video game protagonist, and the big moment that everyone remembers (bombing civilians with phosphor) only happens because the story DEMANDS it happens now. We feel empathy for the madness our protagonist experiences, but mainly as an outside audience that is implicated in the horror because we have to follow a script.

Far Cry 2, by comparison, has you start off weak and let's you remain in that state for the rest of the game. This forces you to adapt and improvise. You discover that it's better to be sneaky and shoot first. You are always outnumbered, so you learn to snipe enemies in no vital places and draw out their compatriots. You learn to place IEDS by bushes and parked cars so you have a clear indication of when to detonate them, the same tactic the Taliban used. The game makes no secret of the fact that it hates you, so you have to do everything in your power to survive. And when you commit monstrous acts, it is because you thought them necessary. And that's not even going into the side missions, which are outright warcrimes. You don't have to do them, but good luck surviving without the resources they give you.

The game uses Heart of Darkness to set up the idea that you are going towards Kurtz, represented by the Jackal. But that's a total lie.
By the end of the game, you are done with all of it. You don't care for the stupid factions anymore -hell, you can hardly pick them apart as is- and you don't care about this country. The game wears you down and that's a good thing. By the end, you don't care about anything except for getting the job done - even if the purpose of that job is something you now find ridiculous as well. You are a monster because you have become the very best at what you do without any attempt to hide it's ugliness behind false pretense, and may God have mercy on your soul.

You haven't found Kurtz. You have become him, without ever knowing for sure where you crossed the line. This experience is the heart of Far Cry 2, and it is told entirely through gameplay. Spec Ops has a good story that it tells very well, but FC2 is the game I'll never forget.

Punished Chuck
Dec 27, 2010

I liked that Watch Dogs 1 used the little bio it gives you for each NPC to make all the security guards insanely evil, presumably so you can still be the good guy because the rent-a-cops aren’t just random Average Joes working for the paycheck, your little phone thing helpfully tells you that every single one of them is a violent criminal who’s been convicted of or is wanted for murder, rape, domestic abuse, everything else under the sun.

Once it told me a random guard was an escaped Serbian war criminal

Al Cu Ad Solte
Nov 30, 2005
Searching for
a righteous cause
Chiming in to say yes to all of Far Cry 2 being brilliant.

Another Chaos Theory thing I loved; in the penthouse mission you find a set of old vacuum tube computers that form work as an infinite state machine. On your first playthrough Sam is bewildered and is tasked with talking to this old scientist, who then helps him initialize a sequence on the tubes to get an output stack for analysis back at HQ.

If you know what to do ahead of time, however, you can just do the input sequence yourself, and the dialogue changes. Sam knows what the machine is, and is like "Oh yeah I've seen one of these before it's a finite state machine I'm gonna initialize the sequence to get an output stack for analysis."

God I love this game. :allears:

Except for the bathhouse mission. Ugh the bathhouse mission. Maybe they ran out of development time or something...

tight aspirations
Jul 13, 2009

Sobatchja Morda posted:

the heart of Far Cry 2

I appreciate your full response to my one emote post, and I think you make a fail amount of good points, but the thing is I never really cared for huge swathes of FC2. I can appreciate what is does well - the moment to moment shooting is good, there are a bunch of weapons, the fire physics is good, the way you use the map is brilliant and I really like how it teaches you to go by river and, er, bus to avoid trouble, but I never cared for the plot, or your dumb companions, or how the weapon trucks just drive in endless circles for no reason, or how the weapons break, how malaria does nothing at all, and the ending is just transcendent levels of stupid. I mean you say you didn't care by the end of it, but I never even really started.

Spec Ops, though, I really got into. I don't think the Wiley Pete scene was that great because, as you say, you're forced into it. The titular "the line" scene where the natives have had enough of your poo poo and string Lugo up and you have to decide, while they're throwing stones at you, mimicking bullet impacts, what to do is much better. I mean, there's no prompts, nothing to tell you what you can do, there's just you, a gun and a bunch or people killing the guy who's been with you the whole time and you feel very rushed into a decision. It's personal on a level that was just abstract when you killed the civilians. I just can't think of anything in FC2 that was that memorable, really.

A Worrying Warlock
Sep 21, 2009

tight aspirations posted:

I appreciate your full response to my one emote post, and I think you make a fail amount of good points, but the thing is I never really cared for huge swathes of FC2. I can appreciate what is does well - the moment to moment shooting is good, there are a bunch of weapons, the fire physics is good, the way you use the map is brilliant and I really like how it teaches you to go by river and, er, bus to avoid trouble, but I never cared for the plot, or your dumb companions, or how the weapon trucks just drive in endless circles for no reason, or how the weapons break, how malaria does nothing at all, and the ending is just transcendent levels of stupid. I mean you say you didn't care by the end of it, but I never even really started.

Spec Ops, though, I really got into. I don't think the Wiley Pete scene was that great because, as you say, you're forced into it. The titular "the line" scene where the natives have had enough of your poo poo and string Lugo up and you have to decide, while they're throwing stones at you, mimicking bullet impacts, what to do is much better. I mean, there's no prompts, nothing to tell you what you can do, there's just you, a gun and a bunch or people killing the guy who's been with you the whole time and you feel very rushed into a decision. It's personal on a level that was just abstract when you killed the civilians. I just can't think of anything in FC2 that was that memorable, really.

Fair. And that scene is brilliant, especiallyif you figure out that you don't have to kill anyone, just scare them off. I fired off a few warningshots into the air because that seemed like a normal thing to do, and was floored when it actually worked.

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010
Pillbug

Sobatchja Morda posted:

Fair. And that scene is brilliant, especiallyif you figure out that you don't have to kill anyone, just scare them off. I fired off a few warningshots into the air because that seemed like a normal thing to do, and was floored when it actually worked.

IMO, that bit works for the same reason the stuff in Far Cry 2 works- just like the game never tells you to use cars or bushes as IED markers, or gutshooting people to get their buddies to expose themselves trying to save them, the spec ops scene is something you have to come up with on your own. Moral choices like that are way more effective when they aren’t signposted to hell and back.

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Punished Chuck
Dec 27, 2010

Sobatchja Morda posted:

Fair. And that scene is brilliant, especiallyif you figure out that you don't have to kill anyone, just scare them off. I fired off a few warningshots into the air because that seemed like a normal thing to do, and was floored when it actually worked.

For some reason it didn’t occur to me to fire unto the air, so instead I did it the stupidest way possible. I was still annoyed by the game forcing you to drop WP on what was very clearly a big crowd of civilians earlier so I figured it was doing the same thing where it just wouldn’t let me progress until I shot them, so I fired one round into one guy’s leg and then stood directly in front of the other teammate so he couldn’t shoot through me and none of the crowd actually died. The dialogue still assumed that I massacred them all because I guess they didn’t anticipate someone saving the crowd in the dumbest way imaginable, but I was still pretty amused that it worked, for a certain definition of the word “worked.”

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