UKMT Autumn 2020 - Thou shalt have a Rishi act a little fishi

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Bobby Deluxe: May 9, 2004

I feel like survivor bias has a lot to do with the popular opinion that it's over and we can start getting back to normal. All the people wandering round saying they've never met anyone who got really sick with it. Yes, because they're all dead or dragging oxygen bottles round their flat, of course you haven't loving heard anything from them.

E: *extremely kratos voice* boy

Bobby Deluxe fucked around with this message at 14:27 on Sep 7, 2020

# ? Sep 7, 2020 14:21

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# ? May 20, 2024 19:21

Private Speech: Mar 30, 2011; I HAVE EVEN MORE WORTHLESS BEANIE BABIES IN MY COLLECTION THAN I HAVE WORTHLESS POSTS IN THE BEANIE BABY THREAD YET I STILL HAVE THE TEMERITY TO CRITICIZE OTHERS' COLLECTIONS

IF YOU SEE ME TALKING ABOUT BEANIE BABIES, PLEASE TELL ME TO

EAT. SHIT.

dispatch_async posted:

Important legal questions being asked on the r/LegalAdviceUK subreddit:

Shooting anti-social teens with an air rifle - theoretical (I hope)

Bit unrelated but on topic of legal issues, I've been reading about UK visa refusals on StackOverflow and it really boggles my mind how insane it is.

Here's a random example - a guy gets an invitation for an interview for a tech multinational in London, the interview expenses are fully covered by the company, they wrote him a sponsorship letter, he also shows that his family is filthy rich by third-world standards, and he gets denied with the following reasoning:

And no there's no right of appeal, the only thing to do is submit a new application which will be viewed with suspicion due to the previous refusal.

Here's a general summary of the issues which applicants face, with some choice bit quoted:

quote:

Many of the UK visa refusals we see here share a common pattern and the prevailing reasons refer to V 4.2 (a) and (c).

I do understand that, while the applicants may describe very different individual circumstances, there's a consistent pattern and, broadly, fall into specific categories:

Credibility (lifestyle, lack of ties, visit history, lies & omissions)

Funding (insufficient funds, provenance of funds, funds parking)

Sponsorship (family, friends, employer)

Question: What most commonly triggers a UK visa refusal where V 4.2 (a) and (c) are given as the grounds?

Secondarily: Given that there is a clear pattern, to what extent are these refusals predictable? Does sponsorship make a difference? Is there a set of personal circumstances, however abstract, where a refusal is all but guaranteed? For example, why do those we see here on TSE who sought entry for the PLAB or British Army appear to be refused with a common theme? Is there a uniform shortcoming or is it just discrimination?

PLAB: What is about applications for a visa, for the purpose of sitting the Professional and Linguistic Assessments Board (PLAB) exam, that seem to invite refusals. After all, the test is given so that international medical graduates can show that they qualify to practise medicine in the UK. The first part, PLAB 1, can be taken in centres outside of the UK. However, PLAB 2 can be taken only in the UK. Why can't you can't get a visa just to sit the exam, promising that you'll leave immediately after?

British Army: Since Commonwealth citizens are eligible to apply online to join, even those who don't reside in the UK, why is it so difficult to get a visa just to attend an interview to see whether you are suitable? Even with an invitation from the Army, such visa applications seem to be unsuccessful. Isn't a career in the British Army a valid reason?

Lastly: After such a refusal, what approaches would increase the chance of a successful application?

quote:

Appendix V, Paragraphs V 4.2 (a) and (c)

These refer respectively to:

(a) will leave the UK at the end of their visit; and
(c) is genuinely seeking entry for a purpose that is permitted by the visitor routes (these are listed in Appendices 3, 4 and 5).

To summarise, they have concluded that the applicant is not a genuine visitor and is likely to go underground and abuse their visa. We see this occur variously in articles like UK visitor visa refused due to length of prior stay:

They got you on V 4.2 (a) + (c), which is their way of saying that they think you might have a secondary agenda of absconding your visa and going underground. Your next application will need to use extra diligence to assure that their concerns are fully explained.

Another way of putting it shows up in UK Visit Visa refusal � need advice on next step:

The ECO concluded that you and your husband would go underground once you arrived in the UK, this is implicit from taking the refusal grounds in context (V 4.2 (a) & (c)).

They reach this conclusion from the items listed above in "Predictability." It's a serious refusal. The rest of this article explains how they reach this decision.

Funds Parking, Lifestyle, and Credibility

A starting point for understanding how bank statements affect the decision process is in the article: "Should I submit bank statements when applying for a UK Visa? What do they say about me?"

...

The article also explains one of the pitfalls where the applicant is fixated on presenting a final balance and is blind to the fact that bank statements provide a window into the applicant's lifestyle and social commitments. See Twice UK business visitor visa refusal because of large deposit, what next? where the answer says:

Showing a hefty bank balance is helpful, but it's only about 20% of what they are looking for. A much heavier weight, say 80%, is given to periodic, predictable flows in and out of the account that show a durable economic connection to your base, in your case Egypt... They got you on V 4.2 (a) and (c) on both applications. In this context it means they concluded that you were not a bona fide applicant and that would most likely go underground when you got here...

ECO's determine how much is needed by examining the applicant's premise and there is no specific amount needed to apply successfully. Even applicants with low balances can succeed when they exhibit a stable and connected lifestyle.

...

Provenance of Funds

Having a great set of bank statements is not enough to ensure success because the ECO needs to determine if the funds have been lawfully obtained and are lawfully in the applicant's possession. We call this 'provenance of funds' and it is explained in this article: are there hidden requirements for UK visa applications?

Where provenance is likely to be questioned, applicants should include their employment contract or their tax returns or some other convincing evidence. They will strenuously object to lame excuses like "I don't have those things because blah blah blah and (insert some lame excuse here)". Genuine visitors are able to establish provenance quite easily.

Having a sponsor does not eliminate the need to establish provenance and a lot of people seem to miss this point. The ECO is entitled to think that the sponsor is a drug dealer or an illicit importer or a criminal and it's the applicant's job to convince him otherwise. So the sponsor should submit his employment contract or tax returns in the same way the applicant does. This is a major single point-of-failure for many applicants relying on sponsorship.

...

Sponsorship Issues

Refused applicants have often made the assumption that having a sponsor eliminates the need to demonstrate that they qualify. This is not true and, in many cases, needing a sponsor actually increases the onus on the applicant to demonstrate that they qualify.

How can this be? To understand this paradox, return to Paragraphs (a) and (c) again and note that neither of them is contingent on having access to money. Indeed, having access to money is covered in Paragraph (e):

must have sufficient funds to cover all reasonable costs in relation to their visit without working or accessing public funds. This includes the cost of the return or onward journey, any costs relating to dependants, and the cost of planned activities such as private medical treatment.

...which is rarely mentioned at all in most refusals! So it's not about the money and it doesn't matter how wealthy the sponsor is or how much money they are willing to commit; the onus never leaves the applicant to demonstrate that they qualify. See UK visitor visa refused (multiple sponsors) for an example which says:

This refusal cites Paragraphs V 4.2 (a) and (c) of the rules... You can see that they did not challenge your daughter's capacity for sponsorship, they accepted her sponsorship without question. But having a credible sponsor does not alleviate the applicant's burden of meeting the rules.

The ECO is also entitled to be mindful of the sponsor's relationship to the applicant and why the sponsor is willing to undertake a large expenditure of no apparent benefit to them. This is especially true, for example, if the applicant has siblings who have never had sponsorship. When there is no history of a grandparent or parent sponsoring other family members and a single person is going to benefit, the motivation should be carefully explained.

ECO's are especially wary where there is a sudden appearance of a "long-lost uncle" who is making a disproportionately generous offer of sponsorship. "Long lost uncles" don't do things like that without very special circumstances and those circumstances need to be carefully explained. ECO's also worry about the relationship between the applicant and the sponsor and whether it is strong enough to lend credibility to the sponsor's claim. See also Will mention of a previously undisclosed relative, who will now invite me to the UK, help me to obtain a visa?

While it's true that sometimes long-lost relatives can suddenly appear and offer sponsorship for no apparent reason, it is an applicant pattern viewed with pronounced scepticism on the Sub-Saharan Desk. You would have to explain why a relative is willing to do this for you and yet you were unaware of them last year. That would be an awkward explanation and genuine visitors do not need to make awkward explanations like that.

Or another refusal on Paragraphs (a) + (c) where sponsorship appears to have been contrived:

Picture this: From out of the blue with no explanation, somebody gets an all expenses paid offer to attend an interview in the UK at a company where there is already a mature and abundant labour market locally. This offer is extended to someone who has been working in their current role for less than a year with no particular credentials to make a company do that. Moreover, their personal circumstances are such that they could easily drop everything and relocate.

And of course if the sponsor has previously been involved in a breach, it goes without saying that a refusal is in order.

Finally, attestations by the sponsor along the lines of "...my nephew very much respects UK law and would never overstay..." can damage the sponsor's credibility. Nobody is telepathic and telepathy is the only way such an attestation can be made. See Applied for Family Visit but refused under V4.2(a) and (c):

It doesn't cut any ice to assure them that you will return home after your visit, and assurances like that make for a particularly weak application anyway. Why should you return home?

This is stated more formally in My girlfriend was a refused a visa to visit me in the UK. What now?

A sponsor's responsibility is to demonstrate the capacity to maintain and accommodate the application. Nothing else. Your 'intentions' are irrelevant and attempting to assert them indicates that you do not understand what your role is and, by extension, that you do not understand the rules. This is a fair assumption on their part because, if your friend decided to go underground and disappeared inside the UK, there is nothing you could do to prevent it.

..

A Note on British Army Assessment Refusals

This is slight variant of the refusals already discussed. Briefly, midway through the recruitment process, candidates are required to report to a military installation in the UK for a two-day assessment. The variant is that the British Army will send an invitation letter (but does not participate as an economic sponsor).

Applicants from the less affluent Commonwealth nations, who are disadvantaged in the first instance, especially those in Africa, can get caught in a confusing 'catch 22' predicament. This occurs when their lifestyle and readiness to sever their homeland ties and 'ship out' for an assignment to a foreign post belie the very homeland ties that the ECO wants to see in order to qualify for the visa!

...

A Note on PLAB Refusals

When a person finishes medical school abroad they sometimes like to "top up" their qualification by taking the Professional and Linguistic Assessments Board test, or "PLAB" for short. Some portions of the PLAB are administered abroad, and some are available only in the UK.

Sitting the PLAB is an activity specifically mentioned in the rules; it is an approved activity within the scope of the Standard Visitor Visa.

The generic profile of a PLAB refusal is where the applicant's parents have funded their education and the applicant is just starting out in their medical career. Sometimes they are still living with their parents. Accordingly they have a strong premise (a medical degree) but a very weak application because they have not established an independent lifestyle.

If you fit that profile, consider putting off the PLAB until you are more settled in your career and have a credible pattern of being a medical practitioner in your own country.
A Note on Discrimination

By way of introduction, Entry Clearance Officers and staff are from a cross-section of society, so it's natural that some are gay or transexual, some are Muslim, some are black, and so on. With this sort of diversity, systemic discrimination is recognised and crushed early on.

Having said that, we can turn to this answer: Does the UK visa system discriminate against Muslims? which discusses a Ministerial Statement authorising discrimination for some nationalities.

The Minister for Immigration (Damian Green): I have made an authorisation under paragraph 17(4)(a) of schedule 3 to the Equality Act 2010, to enable the UK Border Agency to give greater scrutiny or priority to particular nationalities in carrying out entry clearance, border control and removals functions.

...

The answer goes on to explain that the government keeps a list of countries where historical performance has been problematic. Applicants in these countries will have a more difficult time. The list is classified, but it's common knowledge that countries with large-scale performance problems are in South Asia and Africa.

...

Now what?

There is a piece of boiler plate at the bottom of all refusal notices...

Any future UK visa applications you make will be considered on their individual merits, however you are likely to be refused unless the circumstances of your application change.

This is an advisory suggesting that fundamental changes are needed in order to apply successfully the next time. Caution is in order because once an individual enters a tail-spin of serial refusals, they can take on a life of their own by exposing the applicant's fixation on getting in to the UK (that's a bad thing). [ed:loving LMAO why else would they be paying thousands of pounds if they didn't have a good reason]

As a TL;DR, UK regularly prohibits entry to people who are coming to the UK to take a government sponsored test, which can only be taken in the UK. Among many other things.

Private Speech fucked around with this message at 14:34 on Sep 7, 2020

# ? Sep 7, 2020 14:28

Breath Ray: Nov 19, 2010

Bobby Deluxe posted:

It's designed to make him look like he's in charge to the kind of people who think all interpersonal conflict has to be solved by who can stick their chin out the furthest in a pub car park. Then when it all goes wrong he can disappear and live off brexiteer money in a tax haven where they shoot anyone poor enough to be mad at him.

Still, just think how much worse this would be under Corb oh will you gently caress OFF

Oh good, just before the schools go back. Still, it's not like Covid affects kids, right?

Post-COVID syndrome severely damages children’s hearts; ‘immense inflammation’ causing cardiac blood vessel dilation

Alright then.

this is worrrying news especially after bbc more or less last week found children under 10 were not at risk. but are the incident numbers not quite small? 'The team reviewed [the?] 662 MIS-C cases reported worldwide between Jan. 1 and July 25' - that includes a couple of months of schooling time

its also not clear if the 'seemingly healthy' set includes obese children who are later identified as being most at risk.

interesting to learn what number of dead primary school children the govt will consider permissible - and what antivaxxers will say

# ? Sep 7, 2020 14:30

BalloonFish: Jun 30, 2013; Fun Shoe

goddamnedtwisto posted:

This is one of the Nice Things we weren't allowed to have from the 2019 manifesto, a publicly-owned car sharing scheme....Obviously this is skewed by how good London public transport is, but of course I'd have trusted Corbyn Labour to sort that out for everyone else too.

Ah yes, the misty, vanished era of late 2019 when there was a slim prospect of having a government which would actively try to make life easier for people...

goddamnedtwisto posted:

Yes I know I don't technically "need" a motorbike either, certainly not the one I have compared to a smaller-capacity one, but we can start casting out the moto in my eye (geddit????) after we sort out the beam of private car ownership.

My gf has a 700cc Honda bike as well (because she's much cooler than me, basically) and that costs her even less. I can't say I'm doing much to coast out the beam of private car ownership when I have three of the things. But they're all old crocks (the one I still think of as boring and modern is 24 years old...!) and they're basically a hobby. While they cost me virtually nothing to run (�140 insurance for all three, one of them's tax and MoT exempt) because I can work on them myself and I don't do much non-work-related mileage*, I wouldn't really recommend that Jaeluni Asjil gets a Citroen 2CV as a practical personal transport system!

* I might have told this anecdote in a previous UKMT, but when I was a staffer for a motoring publisher I lived a 15 minute walk/5 minute cycle from the office, so I only ever drove in if I was delivering/collecting something unwieldy. Two of my colleagues (on a different publication) gave me endless stick for this and began a long-term project of 'banter' about how I wasn't really a car enthusiast because I didn't drive everywhere. One of them was a complete arse with loads of bad opinions, one of which was his strange cultural/personal attachment to cars as an expression of individuality. He angrily loathed public transport because it didn't go exactly where he wanted, when he wanted and you had to share. Car culture is really bad.

# ? Sep 7, 2020 14:33

peanut-: Feb 17, 2004; Fun Shoe

Bozza Legernd posted:

We are now entering the final phase of our negotiations with the EU.

The EU have been very clear about the timetable. I am too. There needs to be an agreement with our European friends by the time of the European Council on 15 October if it�s going to be in force by the end of the year. So there is no sense in thinking about timelines that go beyond that point. If we can�t agree by then, then I do not see that there will be a free trade agreement between us, and we should both accept that and move on.

We will then have a trading arrangement with the EU like Australia�s. I want to be absolutely clear that, as we have said right from the start, that would be a good outcome for the UK. As a Government we are preparing, at our borders and at our ports, to be ready for it. We will have full control over our laws, our rules, and our fishing waters. We will have the freedom to do trade deals with every country in the world. And we will prosper mightily as a result.

We will of course always be ready to talk to our EU friends even in these circumstances. We will be ready to find sensible accommodations on practical issues such as flights, lorry transport, or scientific cooperation, if the EU wants to do that. Our door will never be closed and we will trade as friends and partners � but without a free trade agreement.

There is still an agreement to be had. We will continue to work hard in September to achieve it. It is one based on our reasonable proposal for a standard free trade agreement like the one the EU has agreed with Canada and so many others. Even at this late stage, if the EU are ready to rethink their current positions and agree this I will be delighted. But we cannot and will not compromise on the fundamentals of what it means to be an independent country to get it.

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/prime-ministers-words-on-eu-negotiations-7-september-2020

Cool so we're hosed then. Can't complain I suppose, I remember all of that being on the side of the bus.

# ? Sep 7, 2020 14:33

Tsietisin: Jul 2, 2004; Time passes quickly on the weekend.

Car cost chat.

So for running my green piece of crap (an 800cc Chevrolet Matiz) the costs are as follows.

�145 road tax
�600 insurance (i got caught speeding, and ran a red light last year....)
�225 MOT and repairs
�1450 in petrol, except I'm no longer commuting, so thats down to about 1/10th.

I am also a member of this website.

https://www.co-wheels.org.uk/

which allows for hourly rental of a better car if I need one.

# ? Sep 7, 2020 14:33

forkboy84: Jun 13, 2012; Corgis love bread. And Puro

Breath Ray posted:

I wonder about German 'compliance' with this sort of thing given the emissions scandal

gently caress off already, nobody cares what you think

# ? Sep 7, 2020 14:34

Private Speech: Mar 30, 2011; I HAVE EVEN MORE WORTHLESS BEANIE BABIES IN MY COLLECTION THAN I HAVE WORTHLESS POSTS IN THE BEANIE BABY THREAD YET I STILL HAVE THE TEMERITY TO CRITICIZE OTHERS' COLLECTIONS

IF YOU SEE ME TALKING ABOUT BEANIE BABIES, PLEASE TELL ME TO

EAT. SHIT.

Another great UK visa thing that is frankly shocking looking in from the outside (much shorter this time, I promise):

quote:

Based on the refusal notice, the ECO in fact did look at your stuff, i.e., they acknowledge this in the notice. The refusal does not appear to be a documentation shortfall.

All applications submitted in India are ultimately sent to one of the hubs, New Delhi, Chennai, or Mumbai where an impressively large staff of assistants check them. The assistants annotate your transcript with their findings and these are made available to the decision-maker (an ECO, or Entry Clearance Officer).

When you see a phrase like "...from information available to me...", the ECO is telling you that their investigation turned up something that contradicts the stuff you sent. We don't know what it was, and they will never tell you what it was.

Imagine if UK citizens had to submit to anything approaching this level of bullshit when applying for JSA/UC or whatever. I mean that is bad enough already, but these visa refusals are on an entirely different level of fuckheadedry

# ? Sep 7, 2020 14:45

OwlFancier: Aug 22, 2013

I mean that doesn't actually sound enormously dissimilar from what people trying to claim long term UC are dealing with, where they just flat out ignore evidence and make things up entirely.

# ? Sep 7, 2020 14:47

Private Speech: Mar 30, 2011; I HAVE EVEN MORE WORTHLESS BEANIE BABIES IN MY COLLECTION THAN I HAVE WORTHLESS POSTS IN THE BEANIE BABY THREAD YET I STILL HAVE THE TEMERITY TO CRITICIZE OTHERS' COLLECTIONS

IF YOU SEE ME TALKING ABOUT BEANIE BABIES, PLEASE TELL ME TO

EAT. SHIT.

Yeah but at least then you can appeal, here a) there's no right of appeal whatsoever, and b) getting refused twice is all-but-certain to bar any future attempts.

# ? Sep 7, 2020 14:49

Jaeluni Asjil: Apr 18, 2018; Sorry I thought you were a landlord when I gave you your old avatar!

From what I remember, UK visa approvals moved from Egypt to Abu Dhabi (or other gulf state - pretty sure it was AD though) and there were suddenly heaps of refusals for business people who had been going back and forth for years without a problem!
It's an expensive business too because as I recall you had to buy the plane ticket and hotels (or wherever you were staying) before applying for the (likely to be turned down) visa as well as the �00s application cost (non-refundable).

How the news makes me feel:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nM4XTYcheCY

Now I know someone's going to inform me how awful these guys are in real life or something.

Jaeluni Asjil fucked around with this message at 14:52 on Sep 7, 2020

# ? Sep 7, 2020 14:49

Breath Ray: Nov 19, 2010

Private Speech posted:

Bit unrelated but on topic of legal issues, I've been reading about UK visa refusals on StackOverflow and it really boggles my mind how insane it is.

Here's a random example - a guy gets an invitation for an interview for a tech multinational in London, the interview expenses are fully covered by the company, they wrote him a sponsorship letter, he also shows that his family is filthy rich by third-world standards, and he gets denied with the following reasoning:

And no there's no right of appeal, the only thing to do is submit a new application which will be viewed with suspicion due to the previous refusal.

Here's a general summary of the issues which applicants face, with some choice bit quoted:

apparently there was a nakedly racist algorithm in use to consider medical school applications between 1979 and 1986 that accurately replicated a panel's prejudices, viz. candidates with non-european names were marked down and 60 missed out on the course as a result. but oddly, while it was used, the medical school admitted a greater proportion of non-europeans than others...

this was in LRB again - what an investment that trial turned out to be!

# ? Sep 7, 2020 14:49

BalloonFish: Jun 30, 2013; Fun Shoe

peanut- posted:

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/prime-ministers-words-on-eu-negotiations-7-september-2020

Cool so we're hosed then. Can't complain I suppose, I remember all of that being on the side of the bus.

It really is incredible (well, not literally in-credible, because we're all well aware of how the media in this country works, but y'know) how Leave.EU and Saint Nigel himself all standing up in early 2016 and talking about how they wanted the UK to have a relationship with Europe like Norway's and how leaving the EU would be a 'process, not an event' that would take 20+ years to do properly (which is actually the truth) has been completely memory-holed.

Or did I dream it?

# ? Sep 7, 2020 14:50

Bobby Deluxe: May 9, 2004

Private Speech posted:

Imagine if UK citizens had to submit to anything approaching this level of bullshit when applying for JSA/UC or whatever.

Ah, the lathe of heaven, friend to leftists everywhere.

E: A friend of mine went through this with their visa application many years ago. She sent her proof of student status and US birth certificate via courier to the address she was told to, and was sent proof of receipt by the courier. She was refused on the grounds that she never sent them the paperwork. She appealed on the grounds that she had proof she did send it, and their response to the appeal was basically 'it never made it to our actual office, so it's not our problem if things go missing in this building.'

Bobby Deluxe fucked around with this message at 14:59 on Sep 7, 2020

# ? Sep 7, 2020 14:52

Bobstar: Feb 8, 2006; KartooshFace, you are not responding efficiently!

Private Speech posted:

Another great UK visa thing that is frankly shocking looking in from the outside (much shorter this time, I promise):

Imagine if UK citizens had to submit to anything approaching this level of bullshit when applying for JSA/UC or whatever. I mean that is bad enough already, but these visa refusals are on an entirely different level of fuckheadedry

"Stop being so dramatic, of course Brits can still live and work in the EU after Brexit, you'll just need to get a visa, and if the company wants you enough it'll be easy"

# ? Sep 7, 2020 14:54

Private Speech: Mar 30, 2011; I HAVE EVEN MORE WORTHLESS BEANIE BABIES IN MY COLLECTION THAN I HAVE WORTHLESS POSTS IN THE BEANIE BABY THREAD YET I STILL HAVE THE TEMERITY TO CRITICIZE OTHERS' COLLECTIONS

IF YOU SEE ME TALKING ABOUT BEANIE BABIES, PLEASE TELL ME TO

EAT. SHIT.

Bobby Deluxe posted:

Ah, the lathe of heaven, friend to leftists everywhere.

I purposely chose the most bullshit thing you average UK citizen might have to deal with, but it's still nowhere near the insanity.

The impenetrable fortress Britain approach is one of the things that make me really suspicious of the promises that the government will open immigration for the non-white commonwealth once Brexit is done for.

# ? Sep 7, 2020 14:56

Jaeluni Asjil: Apr 18, 2018; Sorry I thought you were a landlord when I gave you your old avatar!

Private Speech posted:

I purposely chose the most bullshit thing you average UK citizen might have to deal with, but it's still nowhere near the insanity.

The impenetrable fortress Britain approach is one of the things that make me really suspicious of the promises that the government will open immigration for the non-white commonwealth once Brexit is done for.

I'm sure I read somewhere that India will insist on bucket loads of visas in exchange for contracting to buy any British stuff.

# ? Sep 7, 2020 14:58

OwlFancier: Aug 22, 2013

Though at this rate whether or not the government will care about selling anything to india, or anyone else, is debatable.

# ? Sep 7, 2020 15:00

The_Doctor: Mar 29, 2007; "The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."

You lot are hiding fudge in here?

# ? Sep 7, 2020 15:02

thespaceinvader: Mar 30, 2011; The slightest touch from a Gol-Shogeg will result in Instant Death!

Jaeluni Asjil posted:

Excluding fuel costs, how much do you reckon it costs to run a small car for a year?
(No, I can't drive and looking at driving test sites is giving me mild panic attacks - I was just wondering how many taxis I could take for the same cost!)

Depends HEAVILY on how much you drive (and hence, the maintenance costs), how reliable the car is (same), and how cheap insurance is both for you and the vehicle.

Minimum is going to be �55 per year for MOT, and probably a few hundred every few years for tyres, oil changes, screen wash, etc, plus some tax (unless you buy an exempt vehicle or are exempt for other reasons, commonly related to disability).

Insurance at least a few hundred, probably a lot more as a new driver without an established no claims bonus.

Maximum is ????? cars which need more maintenance and parts are gonna be more expensive, cars bought on hire purchase obviously have monthly costs attached, etc.

If your driving isn't all that common, though, you might be better off comparing the prices of local car club schemes and/or rentals, depending what you're using it for.

But honestly, if you're starting from the point of living in a reasonably built up area with half decent public transport and taxi services, and not having a license at all, and don't usually need to travel between cities/towns which aren't well connected by public transport, you're probably better off not bothering.

thespaceinvader fucked around with this message at 15:10 on Sep 7, 2020

# ? Sep 7, 2020 15:02

Mebh: May 10, 2010

feedmegin posted:

Jesus Christ that must be like 15 quid today, what was the bar, the American Bar at the Savoy?

It was a bar called Telfords in Chester. It's still there!

I think they just knew we were underage and marked the hell up out of the drinks.

# ? Sep 7, 2020 15:04

Nothingtoseehere: Nov 11, 2010

The Home Office is not fit for purpose, and the government itself knows this. There's a reason the new researcher visa boris announced as part of "Global Britain" isn't actually administered by the home office, but by UKRI - because they can't trust the home office to let people in that are wanted here.

Nothingtoseehere fucked around with this message at 15:14 on Sep 7, 2020

# ? Sep 7, 2020 15:06

Jaeluni Asjil: Apr 18, 2018; Sorry I thought you were a landlord when I gave you your old avatar!

thespaceinvader posted:

Depends HEAVILY on how much you drive (and hence, the maintenance costs), how reliable the care is (same), and how cheap insurance is both for you and the vehicle.

Minimum is going to be �55 per year for MOT, and probably a few hundred every few years for tyres, oil changes, screen wash, etc, plus some tax (unless you buy an exempt vehicle or are exempt for other reasons, commonly related to disability).

Insurance at least a few hundred, probably a lot more as a new driver without an established no claims bonus.

Maximum is ????? cars which need more maintenance and parts are gonna be more expensive, cars bought on hire purchase obviously have monthly costs attached, etc.

If your driving isn't all that common, though, you might be better off comparing the prices of local car club schemes and/or rentals, depending what you're using it for.

But honestly, if you're starting from the point of living in a reasonably built up area with half decent public transport and taxi services, and not having a license at all, and don't usually need to travel between cities/towns which aren't well connected by public transport, you're probably better off not bothering.

I used to live in London (zone 1 for a few years then zone 3) and that's why having a car and being a driver was something I never needed given the absolutely fantastic public transport system that London has (and which I did not fully appreciate at the time!). Now though living in the styx the bus services were poor before covid and now they're atrocious and it is becoming a big holdback to me. I can't go to Cardiff, Bristol or London without it having to involve an overnight stay!

# ? Sep 7, 2020 15:07

OwlFancier: Aug 22, 2013

I would think driving to london and back from north wales would involve an overnight stay regardless, at least.

# ? Sep 7, 2020 15:09

Guavanaut: Nov 27, 2009; Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998; Toilet Rascal

Private Speech posted:

I purposely chose the most bullshit thing you average UK citizen might have to deal with, but it's still nowhere near the insanity.

The impenetrable fortress Britain approach is one of the things that make me really suspicious of the promises that the government will open immigration for the non-white commonwealth once Brexit is done for.

"Non-EU migration highest for decades" is something that the right wing rags decided to be mad about last month (graph is from The Sun so may just be made up).

It's still too much of a pain, but I think the government genuinely is opening up a bit, if only for the Bad Reasons (makes businesses and landlords money).

# ? Sep 7, 2020 15:09

thespaceinvader: Mar 30, 2011; The slightest touch from a Gol-Shogeg will result in Instant Death!

Jaeluni Asjil posted:

I used to live in London (zone 1 for a few years then zone 3) and that's why having a car and being a driver was something I never needed given the absolutely fantastic public transport system that London has (and which I did not fully appreciate at the time!). Now though living in the styx the bus services were poor before covid and now they're atrocious and it is becoming a big holdback to me. I can't go to Cardiff, Bristol or London without it having to involve an overnight stay!

If you wanna do inter-city without using public transport, you're likely to be better off finding some way to drive it, doing long distance private hire vehicles is gonna be prohibitively expensive quickly, and I doubt that it'll be cheaper than a car unless you're only doign it a few times a year.

# ? Sep 7, 2020 15:12

Jaeluni Asjil: Apr 18, 2018; Sorry I thought you were a landlord when I gave you your old avatar!

OwlFancier posted:

I would think driving to london and back from north wales would involve an overnight stay regardless, at least.

I'm in South wales and I used to be able to get from where I lived (2 miles out of town - same town I now live in) into town, a bus connection to Newport and a train to London and be there by around 10am AND come back again in a day entirely by public transport.
Impossible these days.

thespaceinvader posted:

If you wanna do inter-city without using public transport, you're likely to be better off finding some way to drive it, doing long distance private hire vehicles is gonna be prohibitively expensive quickly, and I doubt that it'll be cheaper than a car unless you're only doign it a few times a year.

I have no driving licence. I failed my test 4x in the 1990s and decided there were better things to waste my money on - living in London made driving unnecessary. So I couldn't drive intercity even if I wanted to!

Jaeluni Asjil fucked around with this message at 15:16 on Sep 7, 2020

# ? Sep 7, 2020 15:13

Microplastics: Jul 6, 2007; It's what's for dinner.

Guavanaut posted:

"Non-EU migration highest for decades" is something that the right wing rags decided to be mad about last month (graph is from The Sun so may just be made up).

It's still too much of a pain, but I think the government genuinely is opening up a bit, if only for the Bad Reasons (makes businesses and landlords money).

right wingers: "too many europeans migrating here!"

*the racist monkey's paw curls, and white european migrants are replaced by black migrants*

right wingers (sobbing): n..no!!

# ? Sep 7, 2020 15:15

Nothingtoseehere: Nov 11, 2010

Guavanaut posted:

"Non-EU migration highest for decades" is something that the right wing rags decided to be mad about last month (graph is from The Sun so may just be made up).

It's still too much of a pain, but I think the government genuinely is opening up a bit, if only for the Bad Reasons (makes businesses and landlords money).

Like, the government announced opening up to 2.7 million Hong Kong residents recently. While I don't think the details have been announced yet and how many will actually leave isn't yet clear, it's still going to be big bump in numbers next year if even 50,000 decide to leave.

# ? Sep 7, 2020 15:16

Jose: Jul 24, 2007; Adrian Chiles is a broadcaster and writer

Whatever you think of assange this is hosed

https://twitter.com/kgosztola/status/1302901406450372609?s=19

# ? Sep 7, 2020 15:23

Guavanaut: Nov 27, 2009; Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998; Toilet Rascal

JeremoudCorbynejad posted:

right wingers: "too many europeans migrating here!"

*the racist monkey's paw curls, and white european migrants are replaced by black migrants*

right wingers (sobbing): n..no!!

I'm convinced that the big reason Blair was so keen to expand the EU east was to get access to pools of cheap workers, but white ones so that the racists wouldn't be as mad.

Massively underestimating the racism powers of British hams to get upset about a shop with a flag on.

# ? Sep 7, 2020 15:26

Jaeluni Asjil: Apr 18, 2018; Sorry I thought you were a landlord when I gave you your old avatar!

Quelle surprise!
And we're only on the 2nd day back here!

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/07/teachers-at-suffolk-school-test-positive-for-coronavirus

quote:

Coronavirus: dozens of schools in England and Wales report outbreaks
Five teachers in Suffolk test positive, with cases in Cardiff, Yorkshire and elsewhere

Sarah Marsh and Amy Walker

Mon 7 Sep 2020 13.11 BSTFirst published on Mon 7 Sep 2020 08.11 BST

Dozens of schools across England and Wales have reported coronavirus outbreaks, prompting some to shut their doors while others send warnings home to parents about infections.

Five teachers at a school in Suffolk have tested positive for coronavirus, leading the school to close. In Cardiff, 30 pupils in year 7 at Ysgol Bro Edern have been asked to self-isolate for 14 days after a student tested positive.

A week after children began returning to classrooms for the first time since lockdown in March, a number of schools have also been battling outbreaks, from West Yorkshire to the Midlands.

Two staff members and one student tested positive for the virus across three schools in Bradford run by Dixons Academies Trust. A small number of staff and students have been asked to self-isolate, according to the Yorkshire Examiner.

In Leeds, Bardsey primary school was forced to delay its plans to fully reopen on Tuesday after a staff member tested positive. Only years 5 and 6 will return this week, while other pupils will return next week.

In Lancashire, an asymptomatic year 7 pupil at Unity College in Burnley received a positive test result on 2 September � the day the school reopened. All 25 students in the boy�s �bubble� were sent home on the same day and asked to self-isolate for two weeks.

In Manchester, three students who were within 2 metres of a sixth-form student at the King David high school in Crumpsall who developed coronavirus symptoms on 28 August were asked to self-isolate for 14 days.

The Winstanley school in Leicester has advised parents to monitor their children for symptoms after a pupil was confirmed to have Covid-19.

In Nottingham, Mellers primary school was forced to close to year 1 and year 3 pupils until 21 September after two of its teachers tested positive for Covid-19. Children affected by the closure have been advised to self-isolate.

In the West Midlands the return to school for year 3 and 4 pupils has been delayed at Yardley Wood community primary school in Birmingham after a teacher had the virus. A total of 100 pupils were asked to self-isolate for 14 days at the JCB academy in Rocester, Staffordshire, on Friday, after a pupil tested positive.

Five members of the teaching staff at Samuel Ward academy in Haverhill, Suffolk, tested positive, with the school shut on Monday following advice from Public Health England. Two other members of staff are awaiting results. The school said in a statement that the closure was a �precautionary measure� and it hoped to reopen on Tuesday.

The school�s headteacher, Andy Hunter, said the safety of pupils was his �biggest priority� and there was a sense of �huge disappointment after working so hard to get the school back up and running�. He said the school had �taken very extensive precautions�. A deep clean is to take place at the premises.

Stuart Keeble, the director of public health at Suffolk county council, said: �Understandably, this news may worry parents across Suffolk, but it is important to remember that the risk of children contracting Covid-19 is still very small. Evidence suggests that children are more likely to contract Covid-19 at home.�

Anyone who had been in close contact with the infected staff had been contacted and asked to self-isolate for 14 days, the school said. Further contact tracing will continue and other pupils and staff may be asked to self-isolate.

In Cardiff, Iwan Pritchard, the headteacher of Ysgol Bro Edern, said: �Due to the procedures we have in place, restricting contact between different classes and logging seating plans of all lessons, we have been able to limit the numbers of pupils needing to self-isolate and there is no need for parents or pupils that have not been contacted to self-isolate or be unduly concerned.

�Having kept to the 2-metre social distancing rule, or worn a face covering if this hasn�t been possible, no school staff need to self-isolate.�

Coronavirus cases have also been confirmed at three schools in the area around Middlesbrough, although they will not be closing. Redcar and Cleveland borough council said on Sunday that a positive case had been recorded at St Benedict�s RC primary school.

St Aidan�s CE primary school in Hartlepool said in a Facebook post to parents it also had a confirmed Covid-19 case, while Outwood Academy Ormesby in Middlesbrough said in a short statement that a confirmed case had been found �within the school community�.

In a statement to parents on Sunday, the St Aidan�s headteacher, Lynn Chambers, said the individual who tested positive had been sent home after they showed symptoms.

She said: �Public Health England advised that as no child had been in close contact with the individual there was no need for any child to stay at home or self-isolate as a result.�

Outwood Academy Ormesby said the person who tested positive did not contract the virus at the secondary school.

# ? Sep 7, 2020 15:27

Ratjaculation: Aug 3, 2007

"But I thought kids were immune!!!!!!"

# ? Sep 7, 2020 15:47

Doctor_Fruitbat: Jun 2, 2013

Tsietisin posted:

I am also a member of this website.

https://www.co-wheels.org.uk/

which allows for hourly rental of a better car if I need one.

I've seen their cars about ten minute's walk from me, so I'll have to check them out. Insurance was £700 for me regardless of what car I fed into comparison sites, and I love train travel for long distance, so hourly car usage would be great for me.

I don't really like driving anyway, cruising on empty roads at night is wonderful, but dealing with traffic crushes my soul.

# ? Sep 7, 2020 15:48

big scary monsters: Sep 2, 2011; -~Ｓｋｕｌｌｗａｖｅ~-

peanut- posted:

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/prime-ministers-words-on-eu-negotiations-7-september-2020

quote:
We will then have a trading arrangement with the EU like Australia�s. I want to be absolutely clear that, as we have said right from the start, that would be a good outcome for the UK.

Extremely normal to have the same relationship with your next door neighbours and largest trade partners as a country on the complete opposite side of the planet. Entirely standard state of affairs between friendly, allied nations.

# ? Sep 7, 2020 15:57

Julio Cruz: May 19, 2006

Guavanaut posted:

ah-gently caress-curve dot png

the govt are already going all-out to blame this rise on the young for going out and having fun _{which the government told them they could when they opened the pubs back up}

20 people drinking together in a single building is bad, unless they're paying for their drinks in which case it's fine and good, actually

# ? Sep 7, 2020 15:59

SpaceCommie: Oct 2, 2008; I'm escaping to the one place that hasn't been corrupted by Capitalism ...

SPACE!

forkboy84 posted:

Yeah, but then it's an effort question. I have a Morrisons & Tesco on the way home, I have to go walk 30 minutes from the town centre to get to Lidl. Does Lidl do just the one malt or do they have a Speyside, Highland, Islay etc? Coz I like them all but sometimes you're in the mood for something that tastes like an ashtray & sometimes you want something almost like water (hyperbole but Dalwhinnie is really smooth).

Ok, i answered my own question, they have a malt from each of the major styles/regions, & their Islay is apparently a delight. So I guess maybe I should be less lazy & actually go to Lidl one of these days.

Yeah, fair, the flat I'm buying has a Lidl about ten minutes walk away, across a level crossing (I am super stocked about living near a level crossing) so my liver is going to hate me. I've had their Speyside and their Islay. I think they're both excellent, and probably taste better than a lot of mid range single malts. They also do pretty good 500ml bottles of beer for �1.09.

My Dad stopped drinking a while back but people keep buying him bottles so he's gonna offload them all on me next time I'm in Oxford.

# ? Sep 7, 2020 16:00

The Question IRL: Jun 8, 2013; Only two contestants left! Here is Doom's chance for revenge...

Yeah so the Brexit stuff has been the top story on the news over here all day. I think one thing that Bojo fails to understand at all (or is willingly ignoring) is that even if reneging on your deal as part of some super high risk negotiating strategy and it does work....

You've completely killed your credibility. Like why should anyone trust you with future trade deals, when you have shown that you are willing to break deals to try and get what you want.

Whenever I have to give lectures on Ethics, I go to the Tony Montoya school of thought.

"All I have in this world is my balls and my word, and I don't break them for no one."

# ? Sep 7, 2020 16:02

sinky: Feb 22, 2011; Slippery Tilde

Julio Cruz posted:

20 people drinking together in a single building is bad, unless they're paying for their drinks in which case it's fine and good, actually

Getting on a plane with 200 other people is also good, unlike being in a field with 200 dancing people.

# ? Sep 7, 2020 16:02

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# ? May 20, 2024 19:21

thespaceinvader: Mar 30, 2011; The slightest touch from a Gol-Shogeg will result in Instant Death!

Jaeluni Asjil posted:

I have no driving licence. I failed my test 4x in the 1990s and decided there were better things to waste my money on - living in London made driving unnecessary. So I couldn't drive intercity even if I wanted to!

I know, you said. Finding a friend with a license or learning yourself was implied.

# ? Sep 7, 2020 16:10

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > UKMT Autumn 2020 - Thou shalt have a Rishi act a little fishi

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