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I just feel like these are all surface readings at best. We really only see the warriors of the Seraphites despite I think the game mentioning that half of them being non-combatants. I don't think we are meant to hate them or for them to be outright antagonists, because despite all of what they do, Lev still believes in a lot of its teachings. Dr. Fishopolis posted:I'm not saying it isn't nuanced, it's just that if you're going to include that allegory, and also spend half the game hunting and killing them, and also never play from their perspective, I personally feel like maybe they're painted as the bad guys. Even when you play as the WLF, it actually makes them look even worst than what you probably initially thought.
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Sep 7, 2020 07:41
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that Vice article is excellent and more or less articulates my criticisms of the story. particular the part about centrist moral equivalency. gross neolib author politics tbh didn’t even connect that druckmann is Israeli and that makes a lot of things click together free the seraphites
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Sep 7, 2020 16:56
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The Neal! posted:Druckmann also said he threw out everything the consultant said so he could just focus on Lev as a character but it is my sincere hope he misspoke there. You raise a good point but I think the main conceit was that he could have had a story for a trans character and not made them suffer for being trans (so maybe made it more about running from the Scar community for another reason) and then possibly actually pleased everyone? Except Transphobes I suppose but gently caress those people. We've gone over this in the past, but the idea that when Neal says Neil Druckman in Eurogamer posted:We have actually quite a few transgender people on the team that we were constantly talking with, we read a lot of books, we watched interviews, we brought a consultant in to walk us through a lot of that stuff. And then, once we had filled our mind with that stuff, it's like OK, now we have to forget all that and just treat it like a character, like another person in the world. for you to interpret that as "we literally then took all of our notes and burned them and forced ourselves to completely ignore their input so that we could tell the story in a way that ignored all of their input" is at best an incredibly bad faith reading of the statement. It feels very clear to me, someone who writes a lot, that what he's saying is that they internalized what information and input they were given and then proceeded to sculpt the narrative around Lev as a person and a character in their world and how he would react to what was going on to him, his family, and his journey." They didn't wan't Lev to come off as just a series of bulletpoints about the Trans experience, or as a token nod to the budding LGBTQ culture that is slowly making room for itself in the bloated and lovely cis-heternormativity of modern gaming, I think, is the interpretation of this statement that makes the most sense, to me.
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Sep 7, 2020 17:16
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Bust Rodd posted:They didn't wan't Lev to come off as just a series of bulletpoints about the Trans experience, or as a token nod to the budding LGBTQ culture that is slowly making room for itself in the bloated and lovely cis-heternormativity of modern gaming, I think, is the interpretation of this statement that makes the most sense, to me. Well they should have given him some kind of conflict or personality that didn't revolve entirely around his transness then. I get that they were trying not to gently caress it up, but that doesn't change the fact they kind of hosed it up.
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Sep 7, 2020 18:29
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The Neal! posted:I didn't either until I read Druckmann's quote that the story was directly inspired by his own childhood prejudice growing up in Israel. I think this Vice article does a nice job of showcasing some of the parallels: https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/bv8da4/the-not-so-hidden-israeli-politics-of-the-last-of-us-part-ii I feel that way about his “universal hate” take. That poo poo is not in the game you made Druckmann! Abby hates the Joel monster she built up in her mind and Ellie hates Abby at the start for killing Joel before she could fully reconcile with him. Everyone else in the game is pretty ambivalent about it and has their own motivations and goals. I listened to the two part, 6 hour Waypoint podcast about TLOU2 (that has the author of that article, Emanuel Maiburg, on it) and normally I like Waypoint, but I found their discussion very disappointing for many reasons, one of which was their discussion focused a lot on Druckmann’s dumb takes about his own game. When you actually analyze what’s in the game itself, so much of it doesn’t support what Druckmann talks about that it sounds like he is talking about a different game.
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Sep 7, 2020 19:09
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looks like the druck man knows how to get under all y'all skin pretty easy, a job well done
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Sep 8, 2020 02:47
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BeanpolePeckerwood posted:looks like the druck man knows how to get under all y'all skin pretty easy, a job well done pshaw you guys like care about the world and other people and poo poo. that's like so gay you guys whatever you never wanna play warzone anyway gaywads
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Sep 8, 2020 04:22
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:Well they should have given him some kind of conflict or personality that didn't revolve entirely around his transness then. I get that they were trying not to gently caress it up, but that doesn't change the fact they kind of hosed it up. Lev did have a personality and storyline outside of just being trans, he’s a helpful nerd interested in learning about things outside his own culture but still very attached to his own. The whole bit about loving sharks while being scared of the ocean is a pretty good summary of who Lev is.
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Sep 8, 2020 04:34
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:pshaw you guys like care about the world and other people and poo poo. that's like so gay you guys whatever you never wanna play warzone anyway gaywads 
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Sep 8, 2020 04:37
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Dewgy posted:Lev did have a personality and storyline outside of just being trans, he’s a helpful nerd interested in learning about things outside his own culture but still very attached to his own. The whole bit about loving sharks while being scared of the ocean is a pretty good summary of who Lev is. Yeah, there's a nugget of a great character there but unfortunately, they've made it 60% about his trans existence and everything else has to fight for screen time. It sucks a lot for trans people. It's like if Henry and Sam had been around for longer in LoU 1 longer and every time you got into a firefight with actual humans and everyone immediately had a switch flip in their brain and wanted nothing more than to catch them to be slave labor. Dr. Fishopolis posted:pshaw you guys like care about the world and other people and poo poo. that's like so gay you guys whatever you never wanna play warzone anyway gaywads Well, this has definitely killed any further attempts to actually get points across anymore now that you've dug yourself into the ground this hard and reinforced this decision with cement on your feet.
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Sep 8, 2020 04:56
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I’ve genuinely seen more support for Lev than unease or upset feelings about LevRareAcumen posted:It sucks a lot for trans people. It's like if Henry and Sam had been around for longer in LoU 1 longer and every time you got into a firefight with actual humans and everyone immediately had a switch flip in their brain and wanted nothing more than to catch them to be slave labor. No, this is like an insane reach. The only people who bring up Lev’s gender are the serephites who dead name him or call him an apostate. None of the WLF ask anything about it and don’t bring it up and just treat them like a person. I’m almost positive it’s never brought up by Abby except the one line where she asks if he wants to talk about it and he just says “no”. Lev’s gender doesn’t factor into to any of the sky bridge sequence on the way to the hospital, it’s actually a really small part of Lev’s overall story, it’s just the most violent and dramatic part of the story and for certain members of the audience it’s far and away the most important part of the game and the only thing they seem to be able to focus on. TLDR; reducing all of Lev’s plot and character development to their trans plotline is an unfair and imbalanced reading of their character.
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Sep 8, 2020 05:20
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Dewgy posted:Lev did have a personality and storyline outside of just being trans, he’s a helpful nerd interested in learning about things outside his own culture but still very attached to his own. The whole bit about loving sharks while being scared of the ocean is a pretty good summary of who Lev is. That's fair, my comment was unnecessarily reductive. I liked the heck out of Lev, his story is good. my problem is entirely with the argument that his story is good representation of trans people in media, which it isn't, really. It's not terrible, it's just nothing to pat yourself on the back over. RareAcumen posted:Well, this has definitely killed any further attempts to actually get points across anymore now that you've dug yourself into the ground this hard and reinforced this decision with cement on your feet. what decision? the decision to post? listen, I don't know if you've taken a good hard look around these parts but postin's just about all we here got left. now some posts may be good and some may be bad but at the end of the day, it's the folks who buckle down and post who'll have stories to tell their grandkids. what'll you have, friend?
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Sep 8, 2020 05:36
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Abby and Yara do actually discuss his whole backstory in the aquarium shortly before he goes back to the island looking for his mom (In retrospect it is pretty weird how they expand on this without Lev’s input at all) Also besides Owen and Mel no member of the WLF knows or cares about who Lev is beyond wanting to murder him for being a Scar, which I wouldn’t characterize as a positive relation (though I guess in a different sort of prejudice) It’s true that Lev does show to be a more elaborate character, both before and particularly later on after him and Abby leave Seattle, but before that his main conflict - and his sister, by extension - is defined by him being a trans boy in a society that despises the very idea of it. The Unnamed One fucked around with this message at 05:43 on Sep 8, 2020 |
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Sep 8, 2020 05:37
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Bust Rodd posted:I’ve genuinely seen more support for Lev than unease or upset feelings about Lev I don't mean in game, I mean in a wider sense of him being a trans character whose life goes to hell because of that one fact. Him and Yara have to flee their island because everyone turns against him and is prepared to murder him because of that- it's literally nothing about his interests or actions beyond that that causes everyone to turn against the two of them. That's the part I'm talking about- I'm not trans but I'm going off what actual trans people have to say about it- how it sucks that Lev's a cool character on his own and his price of being so is endless suffering and yay he gets a happy ending at the end of it but at the price of his entire family and former community. Everyone's out for blood, they misgender him, you don't even get the classic trope of finding the one or two people that he's friends with that either A) Don't immediately call the guards on him to have him killed or B) Something along the lines of: Lev?! You can't be here, they'll kill you if they find you here! I'll do what I can to help you, I'm sorry about everything that's happened to the both of you. It's just a big arrow pointing at him labeled 'Trans suffering!' Hooray, we did representation!
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Sep 8, 2020 06:09
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It seems like Lev largely exists to give Abby a "save the cat" moment (Lev being the cat in this scenario).
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Sep 8, 2020 14:07
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General Dog posted:It seems like Lev largely exists to give Abby a "save the cat" moment (Lev being the cat in this scenario). Lev is the only reason Ellie & Dina survive Seattle, and that’s laid out clear as day. He has very significant roles in this game.
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Sep 8, 2020 14:08
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General Dog posted:It seems like Lev largely exists to give Abby a "save the cat" moment (Lev being the cat in this scenario). while I like Lev a lot and think he’s one of the high points of the story, this was my vibe as well. it’s effective but he never fully felt like his own character more than a plot device to me. i make fun of Abby but it was disappointing when I picked up Lev and realized her physical prowess was probably mostly a decision made to serve the TLOU1 Joel/Ellie gameplay parallel. she just plays like Joel. it bummed me out because I was hoping she’d be something new and distinct from Ellie or Joel, really lean into her size and strength, but instead she actually ends up feeling weaker and more limited than Ellie (with the return of the shivs and all). it’s like instead of her being this unique physically overpowering female lead all she is both mechanically is just the dude from the last game. combined with the obvious story parallels with Joel’s arc it felt like a wasted opportunity
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Sep 8, 2020 14:36
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Abby being a parallel of Joel is an intentional choice the game makes, mirroring Joel’s journey from “Murderous human trafficker” to “loving and devoted caretaker” in the first game. This adds narrative weight and dimension to Abby’s decision to murder him, as well as Ellie’s decision to threaten unconscious Lev in the boat. Ellie is essentially holding a knife to her own throat (it’s a death of innocence thing, Ellie threatening Lev is the exact moment she sold her soul to the devil)
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Sep 8, 2020 14:44
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Bust Rodd posted:Abby being a parallel of Joel is an intentional choice the game makes, mirroring Joel’s journey from “Murderous human trafficker” to “loving and devoted caretaker” in the first game. This adds narrative weight and dimension to Abby’s decision to murder him, as well as Ellie’s decision to threaten unconscious Lev in the boat. Ellie is essentially holding a knife to her own throat (it’s a death of innocence thing, Ellie threatening Lev is the exact moment she sold her soul to the devil) yeah dude I played the game
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Sep 8, 2020 15:10
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Mandrel posted:it bummed me out because I was hoping she’d be something new and distinct from Ellie or Joel, really lean into her size and strength, but instead she actually ends up feeling weaker and more limited than Ellie (with the return of the shivs and all). Uh oh, looks like someone did not skill into the Momentum ability.
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Sep 8, 2020 15:45
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mcbexx posted:Uh oh, looks like someone did not skill into the Momentum ability. Wall to reset aggro plus momentum is how you eat any seraphite fight alive in Abby sections
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Sep 8, 2020 15:50
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Chaining momentum into hunting pistol shots is a chunky, brutal machine of murder that is super fun
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Sep 8, 2020 19:36
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But violence is bad, remember. Just look at how bad the violence is as you combo into the sickest action shots we can produce. It still makes me laugh, to be honest.
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Sep 8, 2020 19:42
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There isn’t any part of TLoU2 that is trying to tell you violence is bad This game is about feeling things, not as much about doing things.
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Sep 8, 2020 19:48
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Bust Rodd posted:There isn’t any part of TLoU2 that is trying to tell you violence is bad The game takes great effort to show that violence is: -Cyclical -Reductive -Shortsighted It shows this through very clear cause and effect relationships of many of its most violent moments, sometimes multiple times from different perspectives! But I guess none of that is "bad?" ???
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Sep 8, 2020 20:12
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It also shows that violence against slave owners is good so I guess it’s a land of contrasts. Also, violence against the infected is shown as a completely normal part of life that few people are bothered by. Edit: I’ll agree with short sighted because a lot of people make a lot of bad decisions because of limited information (e.g. when Ellie gets attacked at the upgrade table, Owen bumbling for Ellie’s gun, the PSP girl trying to shank Ellie, not realizing the Ellie genuinely didn’t give a poo poo about them. Isaac invading Seraphite island without realizing how many there were (though he is an rear end in a top hat in general). Ellie not realizing she was stepping into a war zone in Seattle.) The “message,” if there even really is just one, is more nuanced than “violence bad.” “Violence is sometimes bad and sometimes it’s ok to really go to town on someone’s head, even if they had hopes, dreams, and a family, because they were a fascist trying to kill you.” Pulcinella fucked around with this message at 20:59 on Sep 8, 2020 |
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Sep 8, 2020 20:48
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I think the story is more about the psychological and emotional toll that revenge takes on your heart and sense of self, not that the violence you perpetrate as a result of that is especially worse than any of the other normal violence that makes up your everyday life.
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Sep 8, 2020 22:55
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Violence, the cause of and solution to all life's problems.
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Sep 8, 2020 23:23
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Mandrel posted:yeah dude I played the game why are you still here then, chop chop get to it
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Sep 9, 2020 02:09
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Anyone else get a patch last night? Wha happen?
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Sep 11, 2020 19:19
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Bust Rodd posted:Anyone else get a patch last night? Wha happen? Abby lost 25 lbs
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Sep 11, 2020 19:36
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Bust Rodd posted:Anyone else get a patch last night? Wha happen? performance fixes apparently
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Sep 11, 2020 19:41
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Just finished it and I'm kinda meh on the end. Maybe I'm quite straight forward but I just don't think Abbey deserved to live. I mean it pretty much felt like ND did everything they could to forcibly humanise her with nothing but situational things, right down to her being tied up and starved at the end. But none of that feels like there was any redemptive character arc. She was still a self serving murderer right up to the end where she was about to DELIBERATELY slit the throat of an unconscious pregnant woman. She only stopped because she was caught by here new buddy. Let's not forget that she also shot Jesse before that (granted that was a lucky headshot), but her head shot of Tommy while he was on the ground defenceless was not. You can bet your arse that if she hadn't been caught by the rattlers she'd likely have been the same horrible person she was before when facing Ellie. The more I think about it the more it seems like the game is forcibly designed around making you empathise with Abby. Right down to trying to make us forget about what she did to Joel so that it doesn't seem out of place for Ellie to let her go at the end. Like Ellie was having constant nightmarish flashbacks about Joel being brutally murdered right in front of her. She even had one briefly at the end. But because its been at least however long since we last saw that and we've absorbed so much more poo poo since then, it's less raw to us as players. Like if we replayed the full Joel death scene again right before that fight (as it was presumably running through Ellies head) then Abby dying would have felt fitting.
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Sep 11, 2020 22:52
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Whether or not you feel like Abby deserved to die feels somewhat couched in how much you value her fighting to save Lev and his sister throughout the game. If that doesn’t change your mind, what Abby does to save this perfect stranger she would have just as easily no-scoped 6 months from now, then that’s ok, but that’s the humanization in journey
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Sep 11, 2020 22:55
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Bust Rodd posted:Whether or not you feel like Abby deserved to die feels somewhat couched in how much you value her fighting to save Lev and his sister throughout the game. If that doesn’t change your mind, what Abby does to save this perfect stranger she would have just as easily no-scoped 6 months from now, then that’s ok, but that’s the humanization in journey Meh, as far as I'm concerned, they're no strangers to Abby. From the moment they first save her in the forest, they become part of her "pack" who she then readily fucks everyone else over for with horrible actions. If she'd just bumped into them in the street and they hadn't done something to save her she'd have given zero shits about them even if she knew their plight. Or worse, hypothetically, if she'd found out one of them had killed one of her other pack members from earlier in the game you can bet she'd have put a bullet in them without thinking.
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Sep 12, 2020 00:31
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Just beat this and I love how gnarly they made Ellie's missing fingers look. She's not wearing a bandage or glove, she's just got these awful bloody red stumps. She'll live but she's definitely paid a price. Kin posted:Maybe I'm quite straight forward but I just don't think Abbey deserved to live. Everybody in the game is a merciless killer and self-serving murderer. Ellie stabbed a pregnant woman to death. Abby is the first character in the game to show any form of mercy and refuse to shed blood when she could. If Abby didn't deserve to live, did anybody?
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Sep 12, 2020 02:39
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I mean, the game makes a point about audience sympathy, that “well, if you’d spent previous 15 hours with Abby and not Ellie, you’d see things a lot differently.” Which, fair enough, but my feelings and experience are what they are- the recognition that in another universe I could sympathize more with Abby’s actions and see Ellie and Joel as the true villains doesn’t change the fact that I did spend those previous 15 hours with Ellie and Joel and I still have a lot more empathy for them than for any newcomers who would cross paths with them. That’s not to say that the writers were wrong to have Ellie do terrible things, or to make Abby a nuanced character. However at the end of the day, if all they really have to say is “hey ever notice how you hold your protagonists and antagonists to different standards?”- that just isn’t an especially compelling point imo. General Dog fucked around with this message at 02:55 on Sep 12, 2020 |
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Sep 12, 2020 02:48
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This game not having a unambiguous villain like the Flood or the White Walkers makes it so complicated.
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Sep 12, 2020 03:29
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I feel like Ellie killing a pregnant woman loses the point a little when she's unaware she's pregnant and is actively trying to kill her. But overall that scene is Owen being more dumb than anything else.
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Sep 12, 2020 06:27
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bobjr posted:I feel like Ellie killing a pregnant woman loses the point a little when she's unaware she's pregnant and is actively trying to kill her. But overall that scene is Owen being more dumb than anything else. Exactly. Ellie is the good one here because that was accidental/self defence. She even fell apart after it. Don't forget that Abbey's friends are all as lovely as she is. Hell I'd even go as far to say that Mel was horrifically negligent to her baby given how pregnant she was and yet she insisted she go out and about fighting scars and leaping about warehouse rooftops trying to ape Nathan Drake. Abby, on the other hand, was going to outright slit the throat of an unconscious woman who she knew was pregnant. If you wanna talk about humanising. Any humanising/growth you might have felt in her should have pretty much been wiped away by what she was about to do there until she saw that Lev was going to see her do it. That was her real character and while the game doesn't cover it the immediate aftermath, given everything we saw of her, I doubt there was any sleepless remorse over what she was about to do.
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Sep 12, 2020 08:28
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