|
Wow, CVs are ruining the game game again, just wait a few days and we'll be right back to how teammates are worse now than they ever have been at any point in this game's existence and the cycle of complaining will be complete Yes, CVs suck, but the game isn't unsalvageable with them existing. Constantly demanding people to acquiesce to your demands of "PROVE THAT CVS AREN'T ACTUALLY BROKEN" is maddeningly obnoxious and makes me hope ya'll get hyper dunked by even more CVs
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2020 22:36
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 13, 2024 18:43 |
|
|
Stanley Pain posted:If a CV is focusing you down, you need to rely on your team to help you out. This game isn't played in a 1v1 vacuum. That doesn't work. If you stack enough ships to prevent the CV from bombing them, you automatically lose the game by giving up map control. Also, most of the teamwork in a non CV match involves ships spreading out across the map to get crossfires, not sitting in one grid square. Stanley Pain posted:Change whatever you're doing. It's high risk/reward gameplay for DDs at times. Sometimes running away is what you have to do. You can't run away from 200 knot planes. Also "just change whatever you're doing" is useless advice in the same vein as CV apologists saying 'just adapt lol' to players who have verifiably done a much better job of adapting to CVs than they have. In practice, since there is no counterplay to CVs the gameplay does not change much in a CV match. The only thing is that you play more passively since pressing the W key makes it more likely for the CV to bomb you instead of your teammates. Stanley Pain posted:So the CV gets one strike off, loses the whole squadron. Do you think that's a sustainable course of action for the CV? The CV does not lose the whole squadron, since in actual gameplay it bombs one of the worcesters on the outside rather than the one in the middle. Five worcesters in one grid square is also pretty close to an autoloss regardless of what the CV does; it's an example of how useless AA is, not something that's actually expected to happen in a game. For a slightly more realistic example, the lowest hp squadron in the game with a 0 point captain can get a 3 plane drop on a Des Moines. Midway dive bombers with a properly set up captain for comparison have about five times the health and something like a 25% speed advantage which proportionally reduces the damage from AA dps, so you wouldn't expect them to lose the whole squadron dropping three Des Moines. Hazdoc posted:Yes, CVs suck, but the game isn't unsalvageable with them existing. Constantly demanding people to acquiesce to your demands of "PROVE THAT CVS AREN'T ACTUALLY BROKEN" is maddeningly obnoxious and makes me hope ya'll get hyper dunked by even more CVs hmmmm i wonder if this new apologist will give literally any reasoning at all for why CVs aren't broken
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2020 22:43
|
|
|
Gwaihir posted:I play T10 pretty much exclusively, which already is locked out from double CV games, thank loving god. Hahaha no, it actually isn't. It's softlocked from dual CVs at T10, but it's not actually hardlocked from giving you a double CV game if people have been waiting too long in the queue even there. It MIGHT be hardlocked from giving you a double T10 CV match, but it's admittedly pretty rare in the first place so I'm not certain. I thought double CV at T10 wasn't a thing either, but then I got a double CV match in a T10 (GK, I think) back in June. Can't find most of my result pictures (if I took any), but did find this to confirm I was remembering correctly. 10:30 PM EST on a Thursday, which isn't exactly peak time but isn't a super low population time either. 
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2020 22:58
|
|
|
Scroll through the topic, you'll no doubt find plenty of posts making arguments about CVs, no doubt with your posts sprinkled in throughout, dropping pointless anecdotes ard handwaving arguments away without addressing them, then in the next breathe wondering why ~nobody will give you a REAL reason~. Then wonder, again, why I'm not inclined to engage.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2020 23:01
|
|
|
James Garfield posted:hmmmm i wonder if this new apologist will give literally any reasoning at all for why CVs aren't broken Yeah, no. I'm not sure where your fantasy games play out. I'm routinely annihilating squadrons with good AA ships. In fact I'll sometime prioritize that. Not every player is unicum levels like you said. They're not all getting perfect runs against 3 DMs, or Minos or whatever. I see things play out differently, and have experienced the game differently. Sure I've been harassed out of a game by a CV from time to time. Those games are in the minority. I agreed to disagree some time ago about this. We're not going to see eye to eye on this.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2020 23:06
|
|
|
Ham Sandwiches posted:Please continue to hate CVs and trash them endlessly over and over in this thread, just understand some people don't agree. At all. The amount of complaining that people do in this thread about CVs is absolutely unreal and completely unrealistic. Do you think it's just this thread? You think there hasn't been threads daily about CVs on the official forum or on reddit? You think the official Discord isn't nonstop CV discussion? You think that we haven't lost like half of the top clans on the game due in large part to players no longer being able to stand CV games? (On NA the CUTE/CUTIE/CUTER clans, ZR, RUSHB. SCCC and Gaishus clan no longer play clan battles at all, etc....) You think there wasn't an organized boycott of Clan Battles this season due to the repeated inclusion of rework CVs, with thousands of members (clan battle play was down 20-35% depending on server from last season) You think there isn't a whole clan and server dedicated to killing CVs with the kidd/kidd/Akizuki div, with many players who have basically stopped playing the game in any other way than to kill CVs? Yeah clearly it's just the people in this thread that have an issue, game is totally healthy otherwise!
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2020 23:11
|
|
|
Speaking of, on EU the clans that won king of the sea or something are called "BANCV" and "KILLCV" so you see that on every loading screen at the moment.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2020 23:14
|
|
|
Nerds getting angry at poo poo. Colour me surprised. Boohooo bad airplane thing make me go boom. So what that you can't be perma stealthed throughout the whole match. So what that you took some damage on your way to your favourite island. CVs add to the overall risk in the game. Full stop. Like CVs are my least played ship class (6%). So it's not like I'm playing CVs at lot. Sometimes you can't counter something in the ship you're in. C'est la vie.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2020 23:15
|
|
|
Stanley Pain posted:Nerds getting angry at poo poo. Colour me surprised. In a game that is designed such that you can engage in counterplay vs every other class it's quite an unbalanced addition and it's absolutely killing the game. People are not slogging through low tiers anymore because it's loving miserable, and good players are leaving because it's absolutely infuriating to have a game where 80% of it is skilled interaction vs other players and the last 20% is 'any idiot just gets to hit you over and over again with nothing you can do about it!'
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2020 23:18
|
|
|
toadee posted:In a game that is designed such that you can vs every other class it's quite an unbalanced addition and it's absolutely killing the game. People are not slogging through low tiers anymore because it's loving miserable, and good to layers are leaving because it's absolutely infuriating to have a game where 80% of it is skilled interaction vs other players and the last 20% is 'any idiot just gets to hit you over and over again with nothing you can do about it!' I've literally just finished getting 2 tech trees up to tier 10. It's not the apocalypse in lower tiers you're crying about. Like I literally just finished 5 tier 5 games and only had 1 match with a CV. This is how most of my games are. I'm not sure if you're NA or EU, but NA this is what I've seen mostly.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2020 23:21
|
|
|
Stanley Pain posted:I've literally just finished getting 2 tech trees up to tier 10. It's not the apocalypse in lower tiers you're crying about. Like I literally just finished 5 tier 5 games and only had 1 match with a CV. This is how most of my games are. I'm not sure if you're NA or EU, but NA this is what I've seen mostly. Yeah it's going so well that they had to introduce bots into regular population low tier games to fill spaces where there aren't real players available anymore
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2020 23:23
|
|
|
toadee posted:Yeah it's going so well that they had to introduce bots into regular population low tier games to fill spaces where there aren't real players available anymore I've literally not seen this at all in lower tiers. Like I don't know what to tell you but if this is happening to you, you must be playing at some odd hours of the night for the server you're on.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2020 23:33
|
|
|
Stanley Pain posted:I've literally not seen this at all in lower tiers. Like I don't know what to tell you but if this is happening to you, you must be playing at some odd hours of the night for the server you're on. The fact that WG literally changed the way matches are populated at low tiers to include bots in any random games and not only vs protected new players is like an OFFICIAL admission that they were having troubles making matches at those tiers. Not sure how else to explain this to you.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2020 23:35
|
|
|
Hazdoc posted:dropping pointless anecdotes yeah sure posting about how concealment and angling are important is just ~~pointless anecdotes~~ and that's the problem here, as opposed to you being a loving idiot Stanley Pain posted:Yeah, no. I'm not sure where your fantasy games play out. I'm routinely annihilating squadrons with good AA ships. In fact I'll sometime prioritize that. Not every player is unicum levels like you said. They're not all getting perfect runs against 3 DMs, or Minos or whatever. Constant AA dps is simply not enough to kill a meaningful number of planes. There is no personal experience here, it's fourth grade level arithmetic. Stanley Pain posted:Sometimes you can't counter something in the ship you're in. C'est la vie. Every ship in the game can counterplay every other ship in the same matchmaking bracket that is not a carrier.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2020 23:37
|
|
|
haha jesus christ my dude a bit hostile now aren't we?
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2020 23:50
|
|
|
Hazdoc posted:Constantly demanding people to acquiesce to your demands of "PROVE THAT CVS AREN'T ACTUALLY BROKEN" is maddeningly obnoxious and makes me hope ya'll get hyper dunked by even more CVs
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2020 23:50
|
|
|
James Garfield posted:yeah sure posting about how concealment and angling are important is just ~~pointless anecdotes~~ and that's the problem here, as opposed to you being a loving idiot Do you always talk about games like this? There are so many more variables that go into a particular match. It's not a binary decision. toadee posted:The fact that WG literally changed the way matches are populated at low tiers to include bots in any random games and not only vs protected new players is like an OFFICIAL admission that they were having troubles making matches at those tiers. Not sure how else to explain this to you.  It's almost like we might be playing on different servers at different times or something. Would you rather them not have bots at lower tiers? What's your point of contention here? Are you arguing that WG has a new player acquisition problem? Because if that's your argument I'd agree with you.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2020 23:59
|
|
|
Stanley Pain posted:So the CV gets one strike off, loses the whole squadron. Do you think that's a sustainable course of action for the CV? Why not? It's not as if the CV's going to run out of aircraft. At most, it means a longer wait before the CV can launch another wing of that particular flavor of plane. If the CV managed to accomplish anything meaningful with that strike despite flying their bomber wing straight into a worst-case scenario for planes, then that's a serious sign of imbalance.
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2020 00:00
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:Why not? It's not as if the CV's going to run out of aircraft. At most, it means a longer wait before the CV can launch another wing of that particular flavor of plane. If the CV managed to accomplish anything meaningful with that strike despite flying their bomber wing straight into a worst-case scenario for planes, then that's a serious sign of imbalance. If you just yolo your aircraft away you aren't doing anything meaningful for pretty much the rest of the match.
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2020 00:04
|
|
Hazdoc posted:Scroll through the topic, you'll no doubt find plenty of posts making arguments about CVs, no doubt with your posts sprinkled in throughout, dropping pointless anecdotes ard handwaving arguments away without addressing them, then in the next breathe wondering why ~nobody will give you a REAL reason~. And yet
|
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2020 00:26
|
|
|
Stanley Pain posted:If you just yolo your aircraft away you aren't doing anything meaningful for pretty much the rest of the match. If you pre-drop once per squadron (or twice, for the Hakuryu torpedo bombers) you can keep throwing planes away for most of a full match no problem. As long as you're not losing full squadrons every time, the regen is enough to keep up for a long time as long as you alternate squadrons (which you want to do anyway on many CV's to farm fires/floodings). Even very mediocre CV players pre-drop these days. Regardless of that though, the fact that a complete potato CV can "only" do full squadron sacrifices like half a dozen times in a row doesn't make it any less frustrating on the receiving end if you happen to be the target they pick. In fact, very bad CV players can often be even more annoying than very good ones if you're in a destroyer or cruiser, because it's pretty common for them to get tunnel vision and just keep attacking you over and over again, and even if they're so bad that they're not even hitting most of their strikes so you're not taking much damage, you'll be constantly spotted and unable to do anything for minutes on end. Sure they're being useless and wasting their DPM, but a terrible player locking down a very good one for a significant amount of time is actually a decent move as far as swinging matches goes. At least a good CV player usually has the basic decency to just murder you in a few strikes if given the opportunity, so you can go back to port and move on with your life. Here's an anecdote for you: in one game not long ago I was in the Worcester, which basically has the best AA DPS numbers in the game, plus DFAA. An absolutely terrible Indomitable player decided that I was his next target. Of course he lost most of his planes every time he struck me but the strikes did get through even with DFAA up and I think he got something like 4 or 5 strikes in before he eventually decided to bother someone else. I was stuck behind the same island unable to move for something like five minutes straight and there was absolutely nothing I could do about it, not even position differently. TheFluff fucked around with this message at 00:44 on Sep 8, 2020 |
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2020 00:35
|
|
|
Stanley Pain posted:Do you always talk about games like this? There are so many more variables that go into a particular match. It's not a binary decision. Continuous AA dps against planes literally is fourth grade arithmetic. It takes planes n seconds to go from the edge of AA range to close enough to strike and they take m damage per second so the damage the planes take is m*n. A lot of other things, like ship dps when you're shooting at another ship, aren't that simple because there are other game mechanics that aren't as easy to reduce to arithmetic, but AA dps is independent of player skill and there's no random element. Stanley Pain posted:If you just yolo your aircraft away you aren't doing anything meaningful for pretty much the rest of the match. If I just blindly walk into four radar ships in a DD, or a four battleship crossfire in a cruiser, or four Asashios in a battleship, I die with 10k damage and I can exit to port or stay in chat blaming my team. If I walk into four AA spec Worcesters in a carrier I can strike one of them at the cost of six of my ~100 planes, and then right away I have two full squadrons ready to go for the other two plane types plus half a squadron of the planes I just threw away (which depending on the CV is probably still enough to strike something) and I get back to a full squadron in four minutes or so. I have to throw away full squadrons four or so times before I even have to start using partial squadrons. There's something uneven here. It's not like the CV is trading away damage for the ability not to be punished either, CVs do more damage and get more kills than ships. James Garfield fucked around with this message at 00:42 on Sep 8, 2020 |
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2020 00:40
|
|
|
TheFluff posted:Here's an anecdote for you: in one game not long ago I was in the Worcester, which basically has the best AA DPS numbers in the game, plus DFAA. An absolutely terrible Indomitable player decided that I was his next target. Of course he lost most of his planes every time he struck me but the strikes did get through even with DFAA up and I think he got something like 4 or 5 strikes in before he eventually decided to bother someone else. I was stuck behind the same island unable to move for something like five minutes straight and there was absolutely nothing I could do about it, not even position differently. Why are you stuck behind this island? Like what's preventing you from sailing away, or back towards other people? James Garfield posted:It's not like the CV is trading away damage for the ability not to be punished either, CVs do more damage and get more kills than ships. Are ya sure about this? Pretty sure top 10 has only like 2 CVs when sorted by damage. CVs will probably have a better K/D ratio though.
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2020 01:09
|
|
|
Stanley Pain posted:Why are you stuck behind this island? Like what's preventing you from sailing away, or back towards other people? http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/20200905/na_2month/average_class.html At high tiers CVs do the most damage, get the most kills, get the most decaps, survive the most, and get like almost 4x the average spotting damage of the next closest class. They do everything the best other than cap, and don't really get punished by making mistakes.
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2020 01:15
|
|
|
Stanley Pain posted:Are ya sure about this? Comparing CV stats based on the wows-numbers ranking is very misleading. It has all the same problems as the ranking does for ships, and the worst CV players perform much worse than the worst players in ships which drags the average down. CVs reliably get more damage and kills than ships if you compare the stats of good players, i.e. the players for whom it matters if a ship is balanced.
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2020 01:56
|
|
|
They're pretty drat close across a bunch of stats including damage and kills.
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2020 02:24
|
|
|
the asymmetric battle mode is actually pretty amusing and everyone should give it a whirl at least once or twice
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2020 02:31
|
|
|
Stanley Pain posted:Why are you stuck behind this island? Like what's preventing you from sailing away, or back towards other people? Hes stuck behind the island because if he leaves hes going to be brutally sodomized by every ship within 20km because he will be spotted by planes immediately.
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2020 02:40
|
|
|
Stanley Pain posted:They're pretty drat close across a bunch of stats including damage and kills. Yes the spotting of 4 DDs, the damage of a high tier BB, the kill securing potential of a cruiser, and the ability to decap better than anything else as well, on ships with armored decks that make them tanker at long range than BBs, that can apply their superior damage to any target on the map regardless of terrain, and do so at no risk to their hull and no appreciable harm to their damage output. Why would anyone be upset about this?
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2020 02:42
|
|
|
Preechr posted:Hes stuck behind the island because if he leaves hes going to be brutally sodomized by every ship within 20km because he will be spotted by planes immediately. So leave when there are no planes around? If you're constantly stuck behind islands unable to move, there's something wrong there.
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2020 02:53
|
|
|
The problem is more of a fundamental game design issue: the game is built around positioning, maneuvering, and situational awareness, and a CV air wing can invalidate all of that at a whim. So much of the play comes down to looking at the known or suspected positions of the enemies and making decisions like "if I go to this area and keep this distance, no enemies will be able to see my DD until I decide to reveal myself" or "if I angle myself this way and head toward that island, I can minimize the amount of damage I take from those BBs over there" or "I think there's a Japanese DD over there, so I should orient my ship to be ready for potential torpedoes coming from there". By taking into account the surroundings and the enemy disposition, you can plan to mitigate risk and maximize your advantage. Planes throw that all out the window. They can roam the map at high speed without any regard for terrain, and are effectively impossible to avoid or destroy, so strategic positioning is useless against them unless you cluster up with multiple AA ships, in which case your team is all concentrated in one place. Sure, you can mostly dodge the actual strikes if you turn hard enough, and that's just fine if you're not really doing anything at all...but having to make an unplanned turn can be very dangerous if you're engaged with enemy surface ships. Having to choose between eating an airstrike or exposing your broadside is a nasty situation with no great answer, and the only way to prevent CVs from putting you in that situation is to avoid engaging with enemy surface ships unless you're surrounded by AA ships. This means that CVs heavily incentivize passive and defensive play to an even greater degree than BBs do. Their ability to spot and attack anywhere at any time, with enough speed and mobility that ships can do nothing to avoid the encounter, allows them to exert surprising amounts of pressure on anyone trying to be aggressive.
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2020 03:10
|
|
|
Stanley Pain posted:So leave when there are no planes around? If you're constantly stuck behind islands unable to move, there's something wrong there. The planes fly at 220 knots. They will return before you manage to get yourself to a safe speed and angle.
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2020 03:14
|
|
|
Stanley Pain posted:So leave when there are no planes around? If you're constantly stuck behind islands unable to move, there's something wrong there. You're almost there!
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2020 03:24
|
|
|
I feel kind of personally responsible for this thread spring to life in such a wonderful fashion.TheFluff posted:Here's an anecdote for you: in one game not long ago I was in the Worcester, which basically has the best AA DPS numbers in the game, plus DFAA. An absolutely terrible Indomitable player decided that I was his next target. Of course he lost most of his planes every time he struck me but the strikes did get through even with DFAA up and I think he got something like 4 or 5 strikes in before he eventually decided to bother someone else. I was stuck behind the same island unable to move for something like five minutes straight and there was absolutely nothing I could do about it, not even position differently. I tried to stay out of this but - who is the winner in this situation? The CV who is wasting the time of the best class in the game? Or you who is being rewarded for shooting down planes and tie-ing up the best class in the game while your DD's are busy capping and your own CV is doing something constructive? I'm going to guess your team won this match right? Or if it didn't, then maybe what CVs do doesn't have as big an impact as you are making out.
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2020 08:14
|
|
|
kaesarsosei posted:some stuff that made a lot of sense It's really not worth it. The CV hatred is just unwavering. Some people won't be happy unless they can be immune to planes.
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2020 08:25
|
|
|
Hazdoc posted:the asymmetric battle mode is actually pretty amusing and everyone should give it a whirl at least once or twice They are good but hard to win as the low tier. Also, and I cannot stress this enough, you should play them in T8 CV's, the best ship class in the best battle format.
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2020 09:00
|
|
|
kaesarsosei posted:I tried to stay out of this but - who is the winner in this situation? The CV who is wasting the time of the best class in the game? Or you who is being rewarded for shooting down planes and tie-ing up the best class in the game while your DD's are busy capping and your own CV is doing something constructive? I'm going to guess your team won this match right? Or if it didn't, then maybe what CVs do doesn't have as big an impact as you are making out. I know this is a team game, but really, most people in random battles will do their own thing until there are only few ships left, and nobody will appreciate that you spent your game being target for carrier (you will more likely be called idiot by your team for dicking around somewhere trying to avoid carrier attacks). I don't know how much XP you get from shooting down a few planes vs shooting at ships, but you spent your match being dunked on by carrier, and unless you're into that sort of thing, carrier player probably had more fun than you, which should be your goal in a game  It could probably be ok in like 7v7 or something though I don't hate CV as much, but if they had limited number of planes it would at least make you feel better about shooting down a few planes and permanently hurting them, instead of just delaying them by few seconds. I also find it amusing that rework apparently made them immune to fires, that could before prevent them from launching more squadrons
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2020 09:20
|
|
|
i like to drive the big boats and shoot the other people driving big boats how about you guys
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2020 09:22
|
|
|
Goast posted:i like to drive the big boats and shoot the other people driving big boats how about you guys I like this too, gotta admit - I love seeing big numbers pop out of the big boats I shoot. This sounds like a mismatch between what Wargaming want and what the players think the game should be, this has been the way since forever. I might try a new tree to see what those low tiers are like now, but when I started playing nearly 4 years ago tiers I-IV were a shitshow, but a fun shitshow. The fun initially stopped for me when I got into tier 5 with my Königsberg and everyone played completely differently to the lower tiers - you'd get punished for not positioning right and had to learn that cruisers were squishy once BB accuracy got ratcheted up. But tier 4 was all "dakka" 
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2020 10:28
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 13, 2024 18:43 |
|
|
Lmao the only positive support I've seen for CVs itt is "well there's not that many of them / the people playing them are usually bad" and the only other defense for them proposed is just "omg stop whining while I ignore any substance of your argument". Like the one person pointing out stuff to Fluff above about moving away from the island / having the team freed up to cap elsewhere might be the only good post in defense of the CV in days.
|
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2020 12:03
|
|