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Ginette Reno posted:I would assume Sauron could take shape faster if he had the ring available as well. Without it, I'd assume his return is a lot more gradual (though still inevitable). My guess is, that without the Ring, Sauron's ability to reform his body is limited. Since most of his power is in the Ring, he was only able to reform his body exactly as it was when he was defeated. This is why I think Gollum's Black Hand comment is actually talking about his literal hand. Isildur chopped off his finger to get the Ring, so Sauron's just going to be short a finger from now on, at least until he can get the Ring back. Also I always got the impression that there was a Great Eye at the top of Barad Dur, but obviously it isn't actually Sauron, it is just some device he uses, possibly to focus the Palantir.
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Sep 8, 2020 16:50
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Morgoth also got locked into a form and could not heal . So it’s probably an idea Tolkien just carried over from morgoth 1 to morgoth 2
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Sep 8, 2020 16:56
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Morgoth's final form was messed up. Hand burned by the silmarils, his face clawed apart by a giant eagle, stabbed seven times by a very angry elf and a permanent limp to top it all off.
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Sep 8, 2020 17:21
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This interpretation of Extremely hosed Up Morgoth by Frederic Bennett always gives me the creeps
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Sep 8, 2020 21:48
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I've been listening to the Silmarillion in youtube audiobook form recently and it struck me in the beginning in the "Valaquenta" part, talking about the story before the Elves woke up, how like... it rings some of the same bells as lovecraftian cosmic horror stuff? It's not HORROR, of course, but the whole thing with the array of gods and how they are unfathomable in some sense to our minds, and the way it talked about how they "wore" their Elf like forms as "raiments". Then as you go on through the Quenta Silmarillion things get more concrete and real-life etc. on to the Lord of the Rings... But then when Frodo shouts "O Elbereth! Gilthoniel!" at the ring wraiths on Weathertop, when you first read it, it's like "ok, weird but also cool". And then you read about how the Vala Varda is also named Elbereth Gilthoniel and you're like wow holy poo poo these normal Hobbit dudes who are like me are feeling the power of these Gods that currently exist in basically a different plane of existence at that time. All the cosmic stuff suddenly intersects with the mundane stuff. I know there's all sorts of magical stuff already happening in Fellowship up until that point, but I feel like this one is real strong for the reason that Varda It's bizarre and kind of scary! Also as I was listening there's parts where Fingwe sends "messengers" to the Valar to tell them he's pissed off or whatever, and I just have to say that wouldn't it suck rear end to be a messenger Elf during the noontide of Valinor? Like you live among all these Elves doing songs and stories and crafting gems and things and your job is to run around and give messages. It's one of those weird things to me about Elves, in that they are all supposed to be elegant and beautiful and stuff but also Elves are supposed to have kingdoms, and in kingdoms I suppose someone has to do the boring mundane poo poo.
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Sep 8, 2020 22:09
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perc2 posted:This interpretation of Extremely hosed Up Morgoth by Frederic Bennett always gives me the creeps  i like this one also approximates the style of tolkiens own drawings
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Sep 8, 2020 22:10
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Ginette Reno posted:I would assume Sauron could take shape faster if he had the ring available as well. Without it, I'd assume his return is a lot more gradual (though still inevitable). I just wondered: did Sauron bring the Ring to Numenor? All this time, I've assumed he did, partially because it's difficult to imagine him leaving it behind for decades at a time and also because this great film treatment assumes the Ring was useful as a focus for his natural powers of persuasion. But if Sauron did bring the Ring to Numenor, that raises the question of how he got it back after the island was destroyed with him on it.
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Sep 8, 2020 22:30
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William Bear posted:I just wondered: did Sauron bring the Ring to Numenor? He did bring it to Numenor (none of the Numenoreans, apparently not even the Faithful, had been told about the rings by the elves, for elves are assholes) and brought it back by hand-waving powers/spirit juju. Letters of JRRT, 211 posted:Sauron was first defeated by a 'miracle': a direct action of God the Creator, changing the fashion of the world, when appealed to by Manwë: see III p. 317. Though reduced to 'a spirit of hatred borne on a dark wind', I do not think one need boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring, upon which his power of dominating minds now largely depended. That Sauron was not himself destroyed in the anger of the One is not my fault: the problem of evil, and its apparent toleration, is a permanent one for all who concern themselves with our world. The indestructibility of spirits with free wills, even by the Creator of them, is also an inevitable feature, if one either believes in their existence, or feigns it in a story. Sauron was, of course, 'confounded' by the disaster, and diminished (having expended enormous energy in the corruption of Númenor). He needed time for his own bodily rehabilitation, and for gaining control over his former subjects. He was attacked by Gil-galad and Elendil before his new domination was fully established.
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Sep 8, 2020 22:45
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SHISHKABOB posted:I've been listening to the Silmarillion in youtube audiobook form recently and it struck me in the beginning in the "Valaquenta" part, talking about the story before the Elves woke up, how like... it rings some of the same bells as lovecraftian cosmic horror stuff? It's not HORROR, of course, but the whole thing with the array of gods and how they are unfathomable in some sense to our minds, and the way it talked about how they "wore" their Elf like forms as "raiments". Then as you go on through the Quenta Silmarillion things get more concrete and real-life etc. on to the Lord of the Rings... I'm not trying to be glib or anything but this is religion, I mean - Frodo invokes Varda the same way a Catholic might invoke Mary or the saints. Tolkien was devout after all and believed in the power of hidden divinity to affect the mundane world.
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Sep 8, 2020 22:48
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skasion posted:He did bring it to Numenor (none of the Numenoreans, apparently not even the Faithful, had been told about the rings by the elves, for elves are assholes) and brought it back by hand-waving powers/spirit juju. Thanks. I'm imagining a whiff of black smoke curled around the Ring flying off.
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Sep 8, 2020 22:50
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HopperUK posted:I'm not trying to be glib or anything but this is religion, I mean - Frodo invokes Varda the same way a Catholic might invoke Mary or the saints. Tolkien was devout after all and believed in the power of hidden divinity to affect the mundane world. still fits since HPL's cosmic horror is religious awe at the universe as processed by a very lonely materialist
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Sep 8, 2020 22:52
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They were both influenced by Dunsany, weren't they?
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Sep 8, 2020 22:58
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HopperUK posted:I'm not trying to be glib or anything but this is religion, I mean - Frodo invokes Varda the same way a Catholic might invoke Mary or the saints. Tolkien was devout after all and believed in the power of hidden divinity to affect the mundane world. I'm having a bit of fun, but just imagine if it was *real*. That's scary, in my opinion! Scary in the sort of way that thinking about death is scary.
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Sep 8, 2020 23:03
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Jo Joestar posted:They were both influenced by Dunsany, weren't they? Absolutely. HPL rather more so, particularly when it comes to gods
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Sep 8, 2020 23:11
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SHISHKABOB posted:I'm having a bit of fun, but just imagine if it was *real*. That's scary, in my opinion! Scary in the sort of way that thinking about death is scary. If it's true, then that would mean we live in the world governed by the One, Eru Ilúvatar, who will in the end redeem the suffering of all his children, and turn them to new wonders and joys that their originator could never have imagined or intended. There are worse things, is what I'm saying.
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Sep 9, 2020 00:40
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Jo Joestar posted:If it's true, then that would mean we live in the world governed by the One, Eru Ilúvatar, who will in the end redeem the suffering of all his children, and turn them to new wonders and joys that their originator could never have imagined or intended. There are worse things, is what I'm saying. Sure, I'm not saying it's bad, I'm saying it's frightening to suddenly learn that that's true. Like... the freaky toroid angels that are covered in eyes. You see that and your first thought may not be "this is fine".
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Sep 9, 2020 01:29
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There's a reason they say "Be not afraid."
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Sep 9, 2020 03:22
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I dunno so much about invoking Varda or w/e but there are definitely two very Lovecraftian things in the legendarium: Ungoliant and The Watcher In The Water; especially Ungoliant who kinda comes from 'outside' of creation entirely, and the Watcher not just for its appearance but its unknown but clearly primordial origin which I'm not sure is a consequence of Morgoth's constant tampering with the early world or his contributions to the music
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Sep 9, 2020 12:11
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Outside of the elves understanding of creation.
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Sep 9, 2020 12:16
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euphronius posted:Outside of the elves understanding of creation. Well, if we go by: http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Ungoliant "In The Book of Lost Tales, Ungoliant's history is even more mysterious than what is implied in the published edition of The Silmarillion. Here, even the Valar did not know of her origins, and she was portrayed as a primeval spirit of night, and believed to be a creature bred of the darkness of the Void." I'm not going to dig out the Sil and find the reference to compare to this one, it might be there's just a bit of a canonical clash but the overall impression of her origins is very mysterious at any rate; a creature borne out of the Void and arriving unseen by the great powers or those dwelling in Arda is pretty Lovecraftian at any rate. perc2 fucked around with this message at 12:29 on Sep 9, 2020 |
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Sep 9, 2020 12:25
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skasion posted:He did bring it to Numenor (none of the Numenoreans, apparently not even the Faithful, had been told about the rings by the elves, for elves are assholes) and brought it back by hand-waving powers/spirit juju. Well, at the council of Elrond they do say that droppung it in the ocean would not be a permanent solution, and it would still find its way back to its master. I now imagine Sauron building his own Glomar Explorer to raise the Ring from the sunken ruins of Numenor early in the Third Age.
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Sep 9, 2020 13:04
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Ynglaur posted:I believe it's mentioned somewhere that Gil-Galad died by being burned alive. I picture Sauron as a Balrog. The Ring was hot enough to show its script when Isildur cut it off him, so at the very least he's... fiery. SHISHKABOB posted:Also as I was listening there's parts where Fingwe sends "messengers" to the Valar to tell them he's pissed off or whatever, and I just have to say that wouldn't it suck rear end to be a messenger Elf during the noontide of Valinor? Like you live among all these Elves doing songs and stories and crafting gems and things and your job is to run around and give messages. It's one of those weird things to me about Elves, in that they are all supposed to be elegant and beautiful and stuff but also Elves are supposed to have kingdoms, and in kingdoms I suppose someone has to do the boring mundane poo poo. See also Galion the butler elf in The Hobbit. Though I guess at least he gets free booze? Hannibal Rex posted:Well, at the council of Elrond they do say that droppung it in the ocean would not be a permanent solution, and it would still find its way back to its master. I now imagine Sauron building his own Glomar Explorer to raise the Ring from the sunken ruins of Numenor early in the Third Age. Maybe he parked it just outside Moria when he finished and that's where the Watcher came from.
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Sep 9, 2020 13:52
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in the game battle for middle earth 2 you have a builder unit for the elves whos just an elf with a wheelbarrow
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Sep 9, 2020 14:32
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Shibawanko posted:in the game battle for middle earth 2 you have a builder unit for the elves whos just an elf with a wheelbarrow Is that what you'd call a barrow white?
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Sep 9, 2020 14:33
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At least Greek Mythology has Hermes who is the god of sending messages to people. Eonwe is the herald of Manwe I guess, but it's not quite the same.
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Sep 9, 2020 14:34
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Hannibal Rex posted:Well, at the council of Elrond they do say that droppung it in the ocean would not be a permanent solution, and it would still find its way back to its master. I now imagine Sauron building his own Glomar Explorer to raise the Ring from the sunken ruins of Numenor early in the Third Age. The other problem with that plan is Sauron was too strong to stop even without the ring. He taunts Denethor via the Palantir with images of his vast armies and shows Denethor that even if they win that day it's still ultimately hopeless. If the ring was lost or cast into the sea Sauron would have conquered Middle Earth regardless. Nobody was strong enough to stop him by that point without resorting to using the ring themselves.
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Sep 9, 2020 15:16
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My headcanon is if they threw it into the ocean, Osse would find it in the shallows on its way out of the deeps and you'd have three corrupt Maia now competing for supremacy in Middle-earth
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Sep 9, 2020 15:31
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perc2 posted:My headcanon is if they threw it into the ocean, Osse would find it in the shallows on its way out of the deeps and you'd have three corrupt Maia now competing for supremacy in Middle-earth Big wet boy vs big Ed: oops Runcible Cat fucked around with this message at 16:00 on Sep 9, 2020 |
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Sep 9, 2020 15:39
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GimpInBlack posted:Is that what you'd call a barrow white? Yes.
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Sep 9, 2020 15:43
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perc2 posted:Well, if we go by: http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Ungoliant One of the creepiest bits of LotR imo is when Gandalf recounts his fight with the Balrog and hints at creatures living in the eternal dark of the deep that are older and stranger than even Sauron can conceive: quote:Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he. Now I have walked there, but I will bring no report to darken the light of day.
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Sep 9, 2020 21:53
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That is very interesting. Sauron is a Maia, and the Ainur were of course created before Ea, so maybe the "nameless things" are products of the Void also. Unless he just meant older than Sauron's incarnation in Arda, in which case they could just be the result of Melkor's disharmony or very early ruinous antics when he first got down there. Also kinda chuckling at Illuvatar seeing some freakish tentacle monster writhing in the bowels of the earth and thinking "haha... yeah sure Melkor I saw this coming, actually this was all part of my greater design, these freakish monstrosities are totally what I had in mind. idc. haha"
perc2 fucked around with this message at 22:21 on Sep 9, 2020 |
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Sep 9, 2020 22:16
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i always thought the scariest part was just the idea of temptation by delusions of grandeur and fetishistic attachments. honestly i never really think any of the fighting or monsters or orcs are actually scary which is probably why tolkien tends to skip over that stuff
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Sep 9, 2020 23:05
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System Metternich posted:One of the creepiest bits of LotR imo is when Gandalf recounts his fight with the Balrog and hints at creatures living in the eternal dark of the deep that are older and stranger than even Sauron can conceive: I just love poo poo like that. Tolkien does a lot of that with his world building where he alludes to things that exist but does not elaborate. I love how much he left unexplained with his world.
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Sep 9, 2020 23:46
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Ginette Reno posted:I just love poo poo like that. Tolkien does a lot of that with his world building where he alludes to things that exist but does not elaborate. I love how much he left unexplained with his world. Yeah. The Entwives are another example, or Bombadil. It's not all weird unnamed terrors like Ungoliant or the deep terrors of Moria, but so many other things too. Hell, in-world hobbits are forgotten by whole slews of folk too.
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Sep 10, 2020 01:10
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Don't forget that neither the Wise nor the Hobbits themselves have the faintest clue of where Hobbits came from in the first place, other than "across the Anduin" and "maybe they met the ancestors of the Rohirrim, once?".
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Sep 10, 2020 02:06
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The Hobbits are of the Fourth Theme.
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Sep 10, 2020 02:09
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Hobbits are clearly elf-dwarf hybrids that are capable of reproduction.
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Sep 10, 2020 02:13
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I like how the sole reference to the Ents in The Silmarillion is when the "Tree Shepards" come down off the Ered Lindom to kick the everloving poo poo out of the Dwarves for their betrayal of the elves.
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Sep 10, 2020 02:19
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Shibawanko posted:i always thought the scariest part was just the idea of temptation by delusions of grandeur and fetishistic attachments. honestly i never really think any of the fighting or monsters or orcs are actually scary which is probably why tolkien tends to skip over that stuff That's a great point. Like the Paths of the Dead has Gimli constantly telling us how darn spooky it all is!!! Tolkien isn't great at terror, but does grief and anxiety rather well.
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Sep 10, 2020 03:37
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Shibawanko posted:i dunno man youre basically saying the movies were good because they were popular? i get that a lot of effort went into them and theyre somewhat saved by some of the actors but a lot of the characterizations are butchered by the script Being a nerd who has read lotr well over a dozen times, I would have preferred to have had Jackson do a movie about peripheral stories that occur during the timeframe of the war of the ring. Rather than doing his vision of what the books were. I mean, there is no way for a movie to accurately reflect what each reader had the texts generate in their minds.
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Sep 10, 2020 05:09
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