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Ok so this is probably a stupid question, but I'm adding on to a circuit for an office in the basement (currently completely unfinished, except for the wall frame I literally just finished). The circuit was installed, un-permitted, a few years ago by my dad. Pretty simple, just a 20A breaker going to 4 outlets in a single box. So I'm going to put a junction box on the joist above that, and run 12/2 over to the new wall, and install a few more outlets and a switched light. Still simple stuff. So the question is: this document on the city's website says the rough-in needs to be spliced and pigtailed for the first inspection with devices not installed, and, like, I think I get that - in the boxes, I splice the hots to hots, neutrals to neutrals, grounds to grounds... then is the pigtail just a wire hanging out there with a wire nut on the end or something? And at the light fixture, do I just leave the wires hanging with nuts on the end too? Can I leave the previously-done part all together and just be, like, oops, or do inspectors generally not care for that?
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Sep 7, 2020 23:52
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Yeah, you just need a wire nut on the hot wire. Those rules are so that the inspector can easily see into the box. Why don't you just run the wire for this circuit extension down to the existing box and make the junction there?
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Sep 8, 2020 03:29
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My main reasons are that the existing box is mounted to the concrete wall and I don't really want to try to run another length of wire through the conduit, and also that the 50 feet of wire I bought only makes it a couple feet past where the ceiling box would be.
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Sep 8, 2020 04:56
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H110Hawk posted:No main cutoff for the panel? You've verified nothing behind any panels in the meter box? I've worked in a live panel and have insulated tools, but not PPE, and uh, it's 6 inches from the meter.  The meter box has a tamper seal from the city. So I guess double lugging the 50 amp AC breaker it is, then! (kidding.. though it should have a 20 amp breaker going by the AC's data panel).Probably not smart to go poking in a 40 year old outdoor panel either, with my luck the whole thing will just fall apart in a pile of arc flash and rust. I'll just run an extension cord out the window when we want lights I guess. Or continue with the current cheater socket solution for the rope lights. randomidiot fucked around with this message at 13:57 on Sep 8, 2020 |
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Sep 8, 2020 13:54
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My stupid generator project is rapidly increasing in scope. I'm thinking of ditching the subpanel idea and replacing the current meter-main combo with a new meter socket, transfer switch and load center, in addition to the generator. Generac's SMM load control cutoff is too sexy. Current panel has 20 spaces, with 4 to spare, and I'm planning on using 3 out of 4 of those empty spaces in the future. Would I be a fool to go for a 30-space panel if I replace it? Is Square-D still the go-to? Is this whole idea as dumb as it is expensive?
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Sep 8, 2020 15:20
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How about an actual electrical question. I'm looking at the Square D plug-on neutral load center, to go with a 200A transfer switch. If I am looking at the diagrams correctly, as far as the bonding connection between neutral and ground is concerned, the load center would be a sub-panel, i.e. it's bonding connection would have to be removed, correct? This should work as long as I also install a ground bar kit, yeah?
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Sep 8, 2020 21:22
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I'm wondering if anyone here is familiar with solar panel setups. I've went and gotten a few quotes and my best one is ~$41k for a 12.375kw system which sounds fair for an installed system based on my research. The problem I'm having with it is that I can find similar systems for $25k and I know enough and am comfortable enough with wiring that I'm wondering if I even need to have someone do it for me. Is there anything difficult that I might run into or special surprises that make hiring someone worth the thousands of dollars? Homeowners can legally do permitted electrical in my town so there isn't any problem there.
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Sep 8, 2020 21:45
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Skinnymansbeerbelly posted:How about an actual electrical question. I'm looking at the Square D plug-on neutral load center, to go with a 200A transfer switch. If I am looking at the diagrams correctly, as far as the bonding connection between neutral and ground is concerned, the load center would be a sub-panel, i.e. it's bonding connection would have to be removed, correct? This should work as long as I also install a ground bar kit, yeah? In a typical full utility transfer switch in my jurisdiction you would bond neutral and ground at the transfer switch (so yes, it would "look like a subpanel" in that respect and you would need a ground bar). Many better quality transfer switches actually switch the neutral so you are 100% disconnected from the utility. Or maybe even all the new ones do, I'm a bit out of date. In any case, that's the place you need to bond neutral (which is utility ground) and ground (your local ground). In the transfer switches that do not do that the convention here is to still bond at the transfer switch.
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Sep 8, 2020 22:30
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STR posted:I've worked in a live panel and have insulated tools, but not PPE, and uh, it's 6 inches from the meter. If you're comfortable working in a live panel I'd just go for it TBH, you don't spend a lot of time near the bus bars, except to plug the breaker on.
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Sep 8, 2020 22:53
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STR posted:I've worked in a live panel and have insulated tools, but not PPE, and uh, it's 6 inches from the meter. You can also just call the utility company and they can come and pull the meter for you for ten minutes while you do your wiring and then they put the meter back in. That's what I have to do if I want to do any work on my utility box because I also have no main breaker, but PG&E is used to this concept.
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Sep 8, 2020 23:01
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Jimong5 posted:I'm wondering if anyone here is familiar with solar panel setups. I've went and gotten a few quotes and my best one is ~$41k for a 12.375kw system which sounds fair for an installed system based on my research. The problem I'm having with it is that I can find similar systems for $25k and I know enough and am comfortable enough with wiring that I'm wondering if I even need to have someone do it for me. Is there anything difficult that I might run into or special surprises that make hiring someone worth the thousands of dollars? Homeowners can legally do permitted electrical in my town so there isn't any problem there. It's pretty straightforward work, but if you're doing grid-tied you're also at the mercy of your power company. Here, they won't connect you unless it's installed by one of a few licensed outfits, which is totally understandable. My 4kW setup was 17K installed 5 years ago and that was probably about half labor based on the gray market prices of the panels. I had 2 electricians for 2 days doing all the panel and inverter work, then a crew of 6 for a morning doing the roof work. That's ~56 man hours so the value of that work at retail assuming half the cost was labor is was ~$120/hr. That's a little high around here, but I was getting in on the last 6 months of full net metering connections so demand was also very high.
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Sep 9, 2020 00:23
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Leperflesh posted:You can also just call the utility company and they can come and pull the meter for you for ten minutes while you do your wiring and then they put the meter back in. That's what I have to do if I want to do any work on my utility box because I also have no main breaker, but PG&E is used to this concept. Looking at Austin Energy's website, it looks like I need to have a licensed electrician on site for any meter shenanigans. I'll stick to the extension cord. It's just a string of LED lights under an eve to light up the patio, and we don't go out there that much (the yard is just dirt, we only go out there to grill). No clue why there's only one outlet outside on the house  (by the front door), everywhere I've lived had one in the back too.
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Sep 9, 2020 11:38
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STR posted:Looking at Austin Energy's website, it looks like I need to have a licensed electrician on site for any meter shenanigans. My house doesn't have any external outlets. The closest I have is one just inside the garage in front and one just inside my laundry/mud room in back.
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Sep 10, 2020 16:51
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Adding exterior outlets is a little more difficult, but it can be done. The difficulty depends on what your walls are made of and if you want the box flush mounted. Brick is probably the hardest if you want it flush mounted since you'll need to use a hammer and chisel to chip out a spot for a box. Conveniently, a brick and the mortar lines above and below it are just about the height of a steel box. Adding the wiring to that new box is usually trivial since 99% of exterior doors have a switch for the light immediately outside that door right next to the door. The wiring for the old box and your new one will be in the same stud cavity.
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Sep 10, 2020 17:35
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Two somewhat simple questions: 1 - if conduit has more than 360 degrees of bends there has to be a box on the line, yea? Does the wire have to be spliced in the box, or just a box there so that it’s accessible? 2 - I keep seeing electricians work with these yellow wire nuts with red rubber in the ends of them but can’t find them for sale anywhere. Do they have a specific name? Also is the rubberized end just additional insulation protection or does it serve some other purpose?
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Sep 11, 2020 13:14
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skylined! posted:Two somewhat simple questions: 1 - I believe it's just needed for access to help pull the wires and no splices are needed, but not positive on this one. 2 - Are you referring to waterproof wire nuts ? If so that rubber cap is just to keep the goop inside I think.
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Sep 11, 2020 13:34
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skylined! posted:Two somewhat simple questions: 1) You don't have to splice it, but the box has to be big enough to be used to pull out and re-feed the wire. LBs, junction boxes, street 90s and pulling elbows all reset the 360 degree rule. 2) These guys?. They're handy because you can strip a little more off the ends, use a motor powered stripper/twister, then gorilla hand luke one of those on it and be done in like 15 seconds.
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Sep 11, 2020 13:44
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Methylethylaldehyde posted:1) You don't have to splice it, but the box has to be big enough to be used to pull out and re-feed the wire. LBs, junction boxes, street 90s and pulling elbows all reset the 360 degree rule. Ya those guys. Thanks. Anyone have any opinions on wago connectors? I want to put all my exterior outlets on one circuit, but spider them out instead of running them in a line if that makes sense. This means six splices on the load wire in a junction box, which seems easy with a wago connector and a goddamn mess with wire nuts.
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Sep 11, 2020 14:00
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My boss absolutely hates wagos, says he's fixed a bunch of loose connections they caused and doesn't trust them. I've never seen it myself but he usually knows what he's talking about.
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Sep 11, 2020 14:14
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Mimesweeper posted:My boss absolutely hates wagos, says he's fixed a bunch of loose connections they caused and doesn't trust them. I've never seen it myself but he usually knows what he's talking about. Has he never had to fix a loose connection in a wire nut? As a homeowner, I haven't had a problem with WAGOs yet but I've had to replace a few janky wire nutted connections.
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Sep 11, 2020 14:47
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Well sure, wire nuts can be used wrong. Anything can be used wrong. The wires should be twisted together and have a solid connection with or without the wire nut, imo. His point is wagos are like backstab outlets and it makes sense to me.
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Sep 11, 2020 15:23
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skylined! posted:Ya those guys. Thanks. They're the best thing since sliced bread and work exactly the same way as the machine cabinet terminal blocks that the entire worldwide industrial infrastructure rides atop e: they are NOTHING like backstabs. e2: Yeah to be clear I'm speaking specifically of the Wago 221 lever-locking spring cage series. Never using anything else again. shame on an IGA fucked around with this message at 15:36 on Sep 11, 2020 |
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Sep 11, 2020 15:29
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I think part of the problem is people say wago and can mean different things. My take: Push-in wago: bad, basically a backstab Lever wago: good, just respect the wire gauge ratings on the connector
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Sep 11, 2020 15:34
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Mimesweeper posted:Well sure, wire nuts can be used wrong. Anything can be used wrong. The wires should be twisted together and have a solid connection with or without the wire nut, imo. I think he's confusing "Wago" with the spring clips type ones. Real Wagos are lever lock and nothing like a backstab. While I don't use them generally they are great for that goddamn short ground in the back of the box that you need to pigtail.
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Sep 11, 2020 15:34
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shame on an IGA posted:They're the best thing since sliced bread and work exactly the same way as the machine cabinet terminal blocks that the entire worldwide industrial infrastructure rides atop er, so they shake loose every once in a while due to lack of PMs and cause panicked phone calls to the machine builder? But really, they work just fine. Hell, some component suppliers ship them. I think Hoffman started including them with the pigtail for their cabinet A/C units a while back. Several places I've worked started incorporating them in their panels. You ship something with wire nuts and you get yelled at for being sloppy, but the Wago? They're magic. I will say though that sometimes those levers pop loose too easily. The 221 series seems a bit less robust than Wago's first lever nut, the 222 series, but maybe that's just me.
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Sep 11, 2020 15:39
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kid sinister posted:Adding exterior outlets is a little more difficult, but it can be done. The difficulty depends on what your walls are made of and if you want the box flush mounted. Brick is probably the hardest if you want it flush mounted since you'll need to use a hammer and chisel to chip out a spot for a box. Conveniently, a brick and the mortar lines above and below it are just about the height of a steel box. That's the thing, the door is on the side of the house. I wanted the outlet at the back, where the actual patio/yard is (which is, conveniently, where the main panel and meter are). It's brick. IDGAF about flush mounting, the meter and breaker panel are surface mounted. So are all of the various dmarcs, and there's 3 (!) abandoned satellite dishes on the roof just above everything. It's ugly as hell back there to begin with. My plan to begin with was to just mount a weatherproof outlet box right next to a knockout and use a tiny piece of conduit. But after looking at the breaker box a bit closer, I'm pretty sure the bus bars are attached by facebook hopes and prayers - it's been sitting outside for nearly 40 years. It's safer/easier to just run an extension cord out the window when we want to use the lights out there, or just use a cheater socket on the existing light by the door (which is how they're currently hooked up). The entire string of lights only pulls about 25 or 30 watts, and they're never left on unattended. I'd feel better if they were on a GFCI, but they're also hanging from the eaves (hard for me to touch the bulbs even jumping.. my 6'5 roommate can touch them, but barely). randomidiot fucked around with this message at 15:55 on Sep 11, 2020 |
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Sep 11, 2020 15:51
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skylined! posted:I want to put all my exterior outlets on one circuit, but spider them out instead of running them in a line if that makes sense. This means six splices on the load wire in a junction box, which seems easy with a wago connector and a goddamn mess with wire nuts. Check your box fill calcs. It sounds like you're going to have at least 12 current carrying conductors in there if you do your hub and spoke scheme, which means you're probably looking at a 4 x 2.5 box or larger.
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Sep 11, 2020 15:56
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That's also going to cost a lot more in wire, plus you'll need a GFCI breaker, or every outlet will need to be GFCI. If you do them in a string, you can do a single GFCI outlet at the start, and run the rest off of the load side of that GFCI. It'll be much cheaper than individual GFCIs, and a bit cheaper than a GFCI breaker.
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Sep 11, 2020 15:59
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I don't understand why you would want to run a star topology like that? There's no benefit unless you go all the way with it, run pack to the panel and have each outlet on a seperate circuit and even then, multiplying the expense of breakers and GFCI sixfold only gains you the option to run a toaster on each outlet simultaneously
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Sep 11, 2020 16:25
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what you're looking for friend is the loving embrace of the ring final circuit imo 
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Sep 11, 2020 16:27
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Methylethylaldehyde posted:They're handy because you can strip a little more off the ends, use a motor powered stripper/twister, then gorilla hand luke one of those on it and be done in like 15 seconds. That thing is a joke right? Do not use that thing. shame on an IGA posted:I don't understand why you would want to run a star topology like that? There's no benefit unless you go all the way with it, run pack to the panel and have each outlet on a seperate circuit and even then, multiplying the expense of breakers and GFCI sixfold only gains you the option to run a toaster on each outlet simultaneously I've done it before where access to the walls is difficult, it's usually better to do several small boxes for wire fill and amount of wire reasons. A job my buddy was the General on, they had a relative who was licensed, who did that for EVERY CIRCUIT, big blue wirenuts abounding. He was also smoking meth in the crawlspace and I got called in because their dishwasher was shocking them, because the hot and ground were tied together (!)
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Sep 11, 2020 18:07
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Motronic posted:I think he's confusing "Wago" with the spring clips type ones. Do they actually save space over wire nuts? I have an old 3 gang box that I’ve now replaced every switch with a Caseta and it’s a motherfucker getting that poo poo all in there. I’m almost tempted to kill this box off somehow and replace it with the deepest old work box I can find. e: Seriously, 5% of my time is spent doing the actual electrical bits, the other 95% is swearing at getting Decora plates / switches to all fit into their goddamned gang boxes. e2: Casetas actually have stranded wire leaving them, not solid, so that makes using the Wagos harder... are ferrules kosher in NEC? movax fucked around with this message at 19:25 on Sep 11, 2020 |
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Sep 11, 2020 18:55
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STR posted:That's the thing, the door is on the side of the house. I wanted the outlet at the back, where the actual patio/yard is (which is, conveniently, where the main panel and meter are). Is the breaker box back there? If you have a breaker slot available, the it's relatively easy to add a panel outlet. Use a surface mount exterior box. You'd need liquid tight fittings to mount your new conduit to your breaker box and new box. Your new box would need to be weatherproof with an in use cover. In use covers are either the flip up dome type or the pop out accordion type. Your GFCI would need to be both weather resistant and tamper resistant. Use THHN cable in conduit outdoors that's large enough for your breaker. Ground the new box if you use plastic conduit and fittings. If it's not back there, I can think of a few ways to easily mount an exterior box if there's a room with an outlet on the inside of that wall that backs up to the back yard, with minimal wall fishing. Edit: if you go with the first idea, check out the distance from the brick for the knockouts on both the new box and your breaker box. You may want a short length of liquid tight flex conduit if there's a severe mounting distance difference from the wall. kid sinister fucked around with this message at 19:31 on Sep 11, 2020 |
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Sep 11, 2020 19:28
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Motronic posted:I think he's confusing "Wago" with the spring clips type ones. These things maybe? https://www.wago.com/global/installation-terminal-blocks-and-connectors/compact-splicing-connector/p/2273-203 I like that one of their examples in their own video shows it losing conductors in the twists.
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Sep 11, 2020 19:33
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Hey dumb DIY incoming: I want to add a fan into a spare bedroom where there doesn't exist a ceiling box. I already have a pancake and I know enough to screw into the joist for support. My plan is to take power from a wall jack and run it up to the box with 14/2 since it'll be a remote controlled fan. I know I'll have to cut into the wall some but the run should be parallel with the ceiling so it's just the possible fireblock and wall corner to worry about. Can I grab a few wagos and split the supply in the existing wall outlet box, or do I need to get a 2gang box to house the wago split?
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Sep 11, 2020 19:42
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FilthyImp posted:My plan is to take power from a wall jack and run it up to the box with 14/2 If you're pulling wire pull /3. Don't hamstring future-you.
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Sep 11, 2020 19:45
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H110Hawk posted:If you're pulling wire pull /3. Don't hamstring future-you.
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Sep 11, 2020 19:48
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Pancakes are pretty marginal for fan installs, you should use a proper fan-rated box if you can. You can splice wires in a single gang box. I would put a switch in the wall above the receptacle you're getting power from, I don't like the idea of a remote ir the breaker being the only means of operating the fan, plus it gives you another hand-hole in the drywall for fishing wires. Is it an attic above the fan? If it's not, do you know the joists run the right way for fishing wire through them? If it is an attic, as there a circuit up there you can pull power from instead? If so it would be trivially easy to put a switch in near the door. Is there overhead lighting in the room already? If so that would be preferable to tying into the outlet, you should be able to take the existing single-gang switch box out, fish wires from the attic, and replace it with a double-gang with no wall repairs (if it's under an atticl Finally, make sure the outlet's on a 15 amp circuit and already wired with 14ga.
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Sep 11, 2020 20:06
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Elviscat posted:Pancakes are pretty marginal for fan installs, you should use a proper fan-rated box if you can. Ok, glad to know I don't need to expand the existing box. Phew. I'll include a switch as well. We just got our box upgraded so yeah, it's a 15 amp breaker. Unfortunately we have no attic space above or an existing run/lighting in the room. So the fan will run double duty as room light. We had a professional install a fan in the master and looks like the joists run parallel to the box I plan on pulling from.
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Sep 11, 2020 21:05
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Not really applicable, but I HATE that, it's the cheapest laziest construction, at least throw a boob light in each room!
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Sep 11, 2020 21:49
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