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Yeah, I think the crowd was just happy to see a good fight. They weren't cheering because dad got punched.
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Sep 13, 2020 18:42
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Mimesweeper posted:Yeah, I think the crowd was just happy to see a good fight. They weren't cheering because dad got punched. No, it was entirely about Dad getting punched. That as the whole point behind Gog's spiel about The Mass.
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Sep 13, 2020 18:48
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It’s about the power of spectacle, and how the tyrant is bound to honor it; that’s the worm in the apple for Solomon. So this is the same thing - in fact it’s about what he must have expected from the moment he said she had won, only without a successor. So it’s a more direct challenge to him than it would be if she just said ‘give me the throne.’
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Sep 13, 2020 18:51
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Neddy Seagoon posted:No, it was entirely about Dad getting punched. That as the whole point behind Gog's spiel about The Mass. Yeah they were loving that poo poo, and it's understandable. And everything WC said is true; we know it, SD knows it. But if you're sitting in that crowd, it's a big pill to swallow with no immediate upside and I bet SD knows that too. I can see him standing up to directly address the crowd and asking if that's really what they want, and if you're WC what do you do if the answer is a big fat NO? Force it on them because they don't know better? Victis fucked around with this message at 18:58 on Sep 13, 2020 |
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Sep 13, 2020 18:56
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Victis posted:Yeah they were loving that poo poo, and it's understandable. And everything WC said is true; we know it, SD knows it. But if you're sitting in that crowd, it's a big pill to swallow with no immediate upside and I bet SD knows that too. Then the people have spoken. But I believe you're overestimating how many actually buy into the whole Paternum thing and how many just go along with it because they know they'll get punished otherwise.
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Sep 13, 2020 19:00
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While it would be a funny reddit-esque subversion for the people to be given power and then just go with "ok and now we vote in Solomon David to be the eternal king for ever and ever" I think it would be the most uninteresting and deflating ending for the book to have, just trashing the majority of the content of the book in the interest of a trivial shock.
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Sep 13, 2020 19:12
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skaianDestiny posted:Then the people have spoken. But I believe you're overestimating how many actually buy into the whole Paternum thing and how many just go along with it because they know they'll get punished otherwise. Get punished for what? The prisons are empty. If anything, punishment is probably exile. SD puts on his useless tournament of blood every so often and then goes about his business. Even WC acknowledges that the people live well in this unyielding stasis. edit: I love that the Squad have all developed their own inner fire (?) Victis fucked around with this message at 19:20 on Sep 13, 2020 |
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Sep 13, 2020 19:15
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Victis posted:Get punished for what? The prisons are empty. If anything, punishment is probably exile. SD puts on his useless tournament of blood every so often and then goes about his business. Even WC acknowledges that the people live well in this unyielding stasis. the parable introducing us to solomon's rule started with an illegal liaison between a guardsman and a civilian woman and ended with an execution, a flogging, a prison term, and a child seized by the state
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Sep 13, 2020 19:36
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Yeah where on Throne would one get the idea that the prisons of the Celestial Empire are empty? We also know one of the Ring of Power contenders/corpses was explicitly there to seek vengeance for the Peach Orchard Massacre on their homeworld, and Solomon tends to employ hardened violence-doers as his viceroys and satraps out on the peripheral worlds of the Empire.
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Sep 13, 2020 19:47
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Not that I expect it to play out this way, but there's not much reason the empire couldn't keep chugging along for a while; Dave's role in the running of the place isn't so much functional as symbolic. Sure he steps in to do the god king thing now and then, like finishing part of the coliseum or handing out judgements on petty disputes, but he has an army of clerks and public servants actually making it all work. His council of failsons are already nominally in charge, but for the fact that he sits on a throne at the head of the table and continually second guesses and overrules their deliberations. If he just left them to it, would they gently caress it up immediately? Would the army refuse to respect them and pull a coup? Would the people riot without a living god to fear? Maybe, but none of that stuff is guaranteed to happen. It definitely won't happen if he stays, but things will never get better either.
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Sep 13, 2020 19:53
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Yeah it would probably chug along forever if he just shut up one day and never said anything again and just sat there. Of course, it's the reaction to an actual abdication that'll tear it apart as everyone tries to grab power.
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Sep 13, 2020 20:07
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Victis posted:Yeah they were loving that poo poo, and it's understandable. And everything WC said is true; we know it, SD knows it. But if you're sitting in that crowd, it's a big pill to swallow with no immediate upside and I bet SD knows that too. God King launching a plebiscite on whether he keeps his throne is in and of itself a pretty big destabilizing act. Even if they initially say "yes" the fact that it was up to them to choose won't be forgotten.
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Sep 13, 2020 20:08
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GunnerJ posted:God King launching a plebiscite on whether he keeps his throne is in and of itself a pretty big destabilizing act. Even if they initially say "yes" the fact that it was up to them to choose won't be forgotten. It would also be a direct repudiation of his philosophy to say “this is up to you, the people, rather than the Great Man (Me)” - honestly I could see an interesting and complicated situation in a story where they do vote him in, and continue to do so for decades, but with the growing awareness that there is a choice (and if Solomon David applies the scrupulous bureaucracy of his empire I bet you could have a highly efficiently administered democracy. And then the peripheral worlds are going to start voting for home rule).
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Sep 13, 2020 20:59
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Tulip posted:While it would be a funny reddit-esque subversion for the people to be given power and then just go with "ok and now we vote in Solomon David to be the eternal king for ever and ever" I think it would be the most uninteresting and deflating ending for the book to have, just trashing the majority of the content of the book in the interest of a trivial shock. This about sums up my feelings. The people refusing freedom would be similar to the prediction that the comic as a whole ends with all the gates closed and every world sealed off from each other as the only way to end tyranny. It make sense if you apply a cynical logic to world of K6BD, but completely runs counter to the over-riding themes and emotional core of the story. Vagabong fucked around with this message at 21:20 on Sep 13, 2020 |
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Sep 13, 2020 21:17
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Solomon only holds power in his empire through violence, or the threat of violence. His peace is no real peace at all. Zoss just finished telling Allison that violence isn't the actual answer to anything(Except maybe wanting to kill someone I guess.). You need to break the cycle, not continue it in statis forever.
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Sep 13, 2020 22:14
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Lemony posted:Solomon only holds power in his empire through violence, or the threat of violence. How is that different from any government that has ever existed?
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Sep 13, 2020 23:02
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I don't think the empire would chug along at all? We've seen Dave ask his failsons for their opinions then immediately make the decision on his own, seen the fact that they would immediately turn on each other in a power struggle if not for the immediate physical threat of Dave himself, seen the army fanatically loyal to him personally, working themselves to death building his circle of strength monument. The impression I get is that he micromanages everything.
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Sep 13, 2020 23:06
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Magnus Manfist posted:I don't think the empire would chug along at all? We've seen Dave ask his failsons for their opinions then immediately make the decision on his own, seen the fact that they would immediately turn on each other in a power struggle if not for the immediate physical threat of Dave himself, seen the army fanatically loyal to him personally, working themselves to death building his circle of strength monument. The impression I get is that he micromanages everything. He clearly micromanaged Rayuba, but he also employs satraps and emissaries out in the periphery of the empire to incorporate other worlds into his rule.
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Sep 13, 2020 23:08
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RiotGearEpsilon posted:How is that different from any government that has ever existed? It's not. This is social commentary.
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Sep 13, 2020 23:20
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RiotGearEpsilon posted:How is that different from any government that has ever existed? It isn't any different at all, but Zoss and the comic are trying to create something better than what currently exists. Striving for something better that we can't even properly imagine seems like a decent thematic path to royalty for me.
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Sep 13, 2020 23:58
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RiotGearEpsilon posted:How is that different from any government that has ever existed? "Holding a monopoly on violence" is not the same as ruling through violence. I feel like a lot of people have a vague peripheral awareness of the phrase "the state holds a monopoly on violence" but absolutely none of the theory behind it, or even whether it's a bad thing.
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Sep 14, 2020 00:19
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Anyhow, apparently I can't stop making these. Ho There, Slamming or Jamming?
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Sep 14, 2020 02:42
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The most important act the God Emperor will ever do is to fall into the river and die so his empire can grow up without him. Leto II at least put some effort into teaching his empire survival skills and self-sufficiency, but I'm sure this will be fine.
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Sep 14, 2020 02:50
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Lemony posted:Anyhow, apparently I can't stop making these. Ho There, Slamming or Jamming? 10 Vigilant Dunk Dominates The Court edit: this needs work. gently caress. i need better words.
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Sep 14, 2020 02:50
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Renaissance Robot posted:Not that I expect it to play out this way, but there's not much reason the empire couldn't keep chugging along for a while; Dave's role in the running of the place isn't so much functional as symbolic. Sure he steps in to do the god king thing now and then, like finishing part of the coliseum or handing out judgements on petty disputes, but he has an army of clerks and public servants actually making it all work. His council of failsons are already nominally in charge, but for the fact that he sits on a throne at the head of the table and continually second guesses and overrules their deliberations. The big problem first and formost is the question of how any new government is going to last longer than someone pointing at the sky and saying something like "Hey, where'd that flying city come from?"
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Sep 14, 2020 03:02
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Solomon letting his worlds do what they want doesn't mean giving up his part in the pact of the seven part world. He'd just be going hands off with them.
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Sep 14, 2020 03:23
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The Pact of the Seven-Part World says he's only allowed to do his demiurging in his designated fraction of the multiverse. That holds true whether or not he's involved in governing anyone who lives there. It's unclear whether any of the others would have any reason to escalate the war by involving his territory.
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Sep 14, 2020 03:29
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Benagain posted:10 Vigilant Dunk Dominates The Court 10 Vigilant Dunk Shatters the Backboard
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Sep 14, 2020 03:52
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Neddy Seagoon posted:The big problem first and formost is the question of how any new government is going to last longer than someone pointing at the sky and saying something like "Hey, where'd that flying city come from?" Raising this as a "major" problem doesn't really make sense in the context of the fiction we've actually seen and would really kind of rely on most of the action sequences from chapters 2, 3, and 4 being deprecated.
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Sep 14, 2020 04:14
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10 Vigilant Defense Hammers the Boards
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Sep 14, 2020 04:52
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10 Vigilant D Cleanses His House
Xand_Man fucked around with this message at 12:54 on Sep 14, 2020 |
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Sep 14, 2020 05:01
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#10 Vigilant Center Commands the Court
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Sep 14, 2020 05:08
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Princess is there; maybe she could tell SD what tends to happen to characters who renege on their promises to our protagonists.
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Sep 14, 2020 07:19
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Rogue AI Goddess posted:Princess is there; maybe she could tell SD what tends to happen to characters who renege on their promises to our protagonists. In song  .
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Sep 14, 2020 07:20
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Mottom doesn't rule her territory as such, and she hasn't been invaded. I think Dave can still protect his turf while allowing for self-determination on how the people rule themselves.
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Sep 14, 2020 07:27
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10 Vigilant J spells the horse
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Sep 14, 2020 07:31
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Victis posted:Having a laugh at your smug god getting punched and being faced with the dawning reality of what him stepping down entails are two completely separate things Hey it's Nyave not Gog with her perfectly normal green flame. Wait a minute.
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Sep 14, 2020 09:26
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Lemony posted:Anyhow, apparently I can't stop making these. Ho There, Slamming or Jamming?
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Sep 14, 2020 15:18
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Royal W posted:Mottom doesn't rule her territory as such, and she hasn't been invaded. I think Dave can still protect his turf while allowing for self-determination on how the people rule themselves. She does at this point - the guilds rule her worlds, and she's recently been showing that her whole speech about being trapped was bullshit by nationalizing them via public execution.
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Sep 14, 2020 15:32
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I mean if you want an example, Jadis has effectively abdicated control over her worlds to her priesthood and the other six are still respecting her claim. Well, most. The real big issue and real question is if Gog is respecting the claim, which is especially relevant here if Solomon's worlds are moving to self-determination. It apparently wasn't enough to trigger all-out war when she entered contestants into the ring of power, but that may not have counted as a violation because he was explicitly inviting contestants from Throne and all worlds, not just his own. If she interferes in internal affairs of the Celestial Empire against Solomon's wishes, it probably counts as a full-on violation, but the current state of the pact is falling apart anyway and Solomon probably wouldn't be able to use the rest of the pact to stop her.
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Sep 14, 2020 15:42
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