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Amppelix posted:there's always new people playing the game. this round of discussion started because inu posted about finishing silver snow. If that's the case, we need to do a better job of marking spoiler sources. So much of the background of this game is discovered by fusing all the routes together + DLC.
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Sep 13, 2020 08:30
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BlazetheInferno posted:Eh, once in a while some argument or point in my head I wanna make just *clicks* and then a wall of text like that happens. Except then, Byleth has to be the main driving force. And that's terrible, because Byleth isn't much of a character. Yes, Byleth has some personality traits and a role in the plot based on them, but Byleth is still a silent protagonist whose feelings on most issues up to and including feudalism in general, are player determinate. For a supporting role, that's just about enough. Byleth can be a sounding board to let Edelgard and Dimitri go through their arcs with no problem. But as the lead, Byleth can't develop, banter, or perform pretty much of the duties expected of the protagonist of anything but an old school FPS. If Claude's not the main driving force, then the route is seriously flawed, because it means the character people pick the route for is taking a backseat to a character who's just not that interesting.
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Sep 13, 2020 11:27
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I mean like I said Claude is basically an afterthought because you need the three government types for any fantasy game
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Sep 13, 2020 11:54
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Claude was in from fairly early according to Devs, f I recall, but he got toned down a tone from his original characterization. He's not an afterthought just cos Leicester itself feels like one. My big gripes with Crimson flower come down to disappointment with how it was handled. While I watched part of Azure Moon via a Youtuber first, It was my first playthrough on both Maddening and Hard and I went into the game expecting to be a big huge Edelgard fan from start to finish always. At this point I 100% think "Church bad" is a very superficial reading that the game's overall lore exposition undermines, and a lot of the stuff people cite as whats supposed to push you in that direction didn't land with me in any of the playthroughs: those other Church Guys come across as religious zealots themselves, blathering about knowing the Goddess, and are the ones initiating the violence for example CF as a whole comes across as a happy go lucky rofl stomp where Hot for Teacher plays faintly in the background constantly, but it undercuts this with the omninous real badguys puppet stringing you the whole time, with no real way to hit back at them during the course of it nor handling the reality that these fuckers have Edelgard on a leash and killed your dad, while never giving you any emotional satisfaction of dealing with them on screen like other routes. Instead you kill Cornelia in an attempt to weaken them, and they loving nuke you. The whole thing started in Development with Koei Tecmo staff saying they wanted to be able to side with Edelgard, which precipitated the whole route split, and any sense of incompleteness to any of the routes, in the first place. CF demonizes Rhea in a way the others don't really demonize Edelgard, and are better for it; you get a sense of tragedy in the conflict and the indication Edelgard's views of the need to change Fodlan are correct, and reform has to happen one way or another, in all of them. As for Verdant Wind and Claude, I appreciate that his view point and aims are, in part, to reveal the truth of Fodlan's history, ugly bits and all, rather than tear down the Church by force but I think the stuff that would improve things is focusing more on Alliance internal politics and having to deal with solving that knot of problems to take on the Empire directly, rather than just have a carbon copy of Silver Snow's plot points but with Claude there 'scheming', and one of the major changes towards that I would make would be to have Claude end up *not* the leader of the Alliance in that route, at least from the start. I think the biggest moment of Fridge Logic for me in the game was finding his whole ploy with starting the Resistance Army to be utterly stupid; its a false flag to stop Edelgard having just cause to invade the Alliance full stop because he wants to fight her but can't drag the whole Alliance in. This is silly because he's literally the leader of this polity, and if seen leading this army its pretty easy to construe this as him being at war with the Empire. This could be fixed by having the route involve the other houses not having him succeed as head of the Alliance but not doing anything about his lawful inheritance of House Riegan's territory. (Its never clarified the mechanisms of how the Alliance is lead by House Riegan, so for this I'm of the opinion it should have been written to be an elective process that House Riegan has mostly/exclusively won up until this point) Set him up to have motive to align with the Church, be in an underdog position with his compatriots where he needs to get back to the top and all that jazz. Actually have to make a hard choice in confronting Lorenz's dad or Holst or something. Carry onto taking the war directly to the Empire as the route does otherwise and fight Nemesis. McTimmy posted:She killed all Ten Elites and Nemesis. The Elites' families got to survive, which is how things got passed down, but they all got the Sword of Seiros special. I could have sworn it was vague as to what actually happened to all of them specifically.
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Sep 13, 2020 16:16
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Rimusutera posted:I could have sworn it was vague as to what actually happened to all of them specifically. Edit: Ignore me. I had them confused with the four saints. AlternateNu fucked around with this message at 16:40 on Sep 13, 2020 |
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Sep 13, 2020 16:37
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Rimusutera posted:I could have sworn it was vague as to what actually happened to all of them specifically. Vague in the sense we don't see it directly, I guess.
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Sep 13, 2020 16:53
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BlazetheInferno posted:The thing about Claude is that from a skillset perspective, he works best when he's working behind the scenes, working from the shadows. He's a strategist and schemer, so in a war scenario, he needs to be able to duck out of the spotlight from time to time to set his plans in motion, which is harder to do when the focus is primarily on him. I feel like there's a big hook for him to be a backside supporter of his goals that's even in the game. Nader and the alliance with almyra could have been the thrust of the plot and not just a one chapter gimmick immediate forgotten. Allying with a (presumed) foreign power and getting everyone used to fighting on the same side is a direct step towards people not being racist shitheads and it's absolutely back lines wheeling and dealing that fits him. plus it makes more sense than randomly founding a resistance movement because we're out of time/budget so all the players will get is a cheap SS copy.
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Sep 13, 2020 19:40
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Claudes route is funny in that it serves a meta purpose but in story serves no real purpose. Exposing the true history doesn’t matter unless it reveals something silly like a weakness. No one cares about that poo poo.
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Sep 13, 2020 19:52
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If the dev team could’ve made like 1.5 more maps, I would have liked VW to be: 14: The Knights of Seiros arrive at Garreg Mach. Claude's army unites with Judith's at Ailell; the Knights of Seiros are not deployable on the mission. There are no monastery activities after this, because the next mission is... 15: Second Garreg Mach. The player team and NPCs from Judith's army show up behind the Imperial invaders. The Knights of Seiros (as blue units) defend the entrance on the other side. 16: Lorenz, Hilda, and Lysithea disappear from the monastery for a week. The mission is a new map: a battle against Almyrans led by Nader at the port of Fodlan's Locket, the Goneril castle at the south end of Fodlan's Throat. Permadeath is off, because this is a ruse to make the Empire think an invasion has knocked the Alliance out of the war. In fact, Claude has brought Holst and Nader in on a plan to have the Almyrans supply new ships and troops for an amphibious invasion of Adrestea. No return to the monastery. 17: Fort Merceus—the Leicester/Almyran Army cuts off the Imperials who have occupied Gloucester territory across the Bridge of Myrrdin. Success here allows Duke Gloucester and Count Ordelia to declare for the Alliance and defeat the Adrestian forces in detail, with the aid of Judith's army and Kingdom partisans coming from the northwest. The bridge battle doesn’t happen on this route. Once again, no monastery. 18: Second Gronder, with the Leicester forces appearing in the east and the Kingdom troops in the north. This could be the same otherwise, but I’d love to have the Kingdom as a green army that turns yellow if you deny Dimitri the chance to fight Edelgard. 19-22 are the same. I’d love to change up events here, but I’m limiting my budget. Zoran fucked around with this message at 20:24 on Sep 13, 2020 |
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Sep 13, 2020 20:12
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Plot and campaigns could've been made more interesting by the introduction of a "you're at camp" modality instead of always necessitating a return to the monastery, considering that most key actions are available from the pre-mission menu anyhow.
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Sep 13, 2020 20:48
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Chronojam posted:Plot and campaigns could've been made more interesting by the introduction of a "you're at camp" modality instead of always necessitating a return to the monastery, considering that most key actions are available from the pre-mission menu anyhow. You can tell how much of an afterthought CF was based on how bare the "temporary camp" is in that one month. It's hilarious if you've managed to recruit everyone, and it's super crowded.
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Sep 13, 2020 21:17
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I mean it may be less thought out but it’s the only vaguely interesting one. So thought obviously doesn’t correlate to success
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Sep 13, 2020 21:23
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I think given how much assets it probably took up and its place as a lore centric and strategic location makes each of the routes centering on the Monastery forgivable, and not high on my list of priorities for improving the game. I think restructuring how weekend side battles and week to week stuff are handled in the postskip game, if not preskip as well, would help with immersion a lot better over all though.
Rimusutera fucked around with this message at 21:54 on Sep 13, 2020 |
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Sep 13, 2020 21:49
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I think the game probably would have worked better and been a purer experience had they doubled down on the really compelling elements: writing it as a school sim/visual novel, where you have to teach Edelgard or Dimitri how to be a great leader while also finding love with Seteth or Shamir
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Sep 13, 2020 22:00
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nrook posted:I think the game probably would have worked better and been a purer experience had they doubled down on the really compelling elements: writing it as a school sim/visual novel, where you have to teach Edelgard or Dimitri how to be a great leader while also finding love with Seteth or Shamir Limiting your romantic pairings to the other staff like this would have been nice.
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Sep 13, 2020 22:03
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Manuela or bust
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Sep 13, 2020 22:09
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Rimusutera posted:Limiting your romantic pairings to the other staff like this would have been nice. But then we wouldn't have Edeleth and that's a crime.  
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Sep 13, 2020 22:30
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To be honest the whole three houses itself was half baked. Just make Edelguard the main route and maybe have it branch off to the obviously evil Dimitri/Rhea at so,e point if you want
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Sep 13, 2020 22:36
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When Edelgard has mental health issues: completely understandable. When Dimitri has mental health issues: evil. None of the Lords are evil. Rhea isn’t a Lord, so she doesn’t count.
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Sep 13, 2020 22:41
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Nah Demitri is just a huge pice if poo poo
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Sep 13, 2020 22:42
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dimitri pwns u
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Sep 13, 2020 22:45
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Also like the Lions route isn't bad because of Dimitri really, but because of how everyone around him acts. Because holy poo poo they all know he's completely unfit to lead them and doing insanely self destructive things but keep following his orders anyways for no reason beyond 'well he was born to be king I guess'. It feels gross as hell and sort of betrays all the other characters. It also makes his thoughts that his friends will stop him from going to far seem like a weirdly sick joke since they demonstrably did not. Dimitri is well written but everyone else turns into a whimpering moral coward. At least on the other routes everyone is doing what they think is the right thing and fighting for some sort of articulated belief. Zore fucked around with this message at 22:48 on Sep 13, 2020 |
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Sep 13, 2020 22:45
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Or alternatively go all in on the school poo poo so the stakes never get higher than winning the best house or whatever. One or the other
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Sep 13, 2020 22:48
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I will say as much as I love CF, a big part of that is it's a conscious choice on your point. Not being able to choose Edelgard's route makes it a lot weaker imo. (as in if it was the default.)
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Sep 13, 2020 22:52
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Eimi posted:I will say as much as I love CF, a big part of that is it's a conscious choice on your point. Not being able to choose Edelgard's route makes it a lot weaker imo. (as in if it was the default.) I mean that would be the part where the beanch would happen. In my version there would still be two paths but all the extra graft would be cut making it much tighter.. Effectively making Edelgard Vs. the church the main crix and crimson flower would effectively be the same thing. Just with more focus
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Sep 13, 2020 22:56
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Zore posted:Also like the Lions route isn't bad because of Dimitri really, but because of how everyone around him acts. Because holy poo poo they all know he's completely unfit to lead them and doing insanely self destructive things but keep following his orders anyways for no reason beyond 'well he was born to be king I guess'. By the looks of it there was going to be a split in the Blue Lions route when something would happen and Annette and Felix would ditch your faction and join up with the enemy. Something like that where if you failed to try and reign Dimitri in would have gone a long way to making the route interesting and have some actual teeth.
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Sep 13, 2020 22:57
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Dimitri's mental health issues are also written to demonize people with psychosis as violent murderers and unless you very specifically play a female Byleth and marry Dimitri you are not going to get any sign that he does not get magically cured after an event that makes no sense for him to be helped by it happening. He's not a well-written example of mental illness for most of AM, so even if the rest of the characters in that route didn't end up written into the trash by the demands of the plot AM would be pretty bad. Like, Edelgard's issues are barely touched on which is probably why she ends up passable given every other obviously mentally ill character in the game, but she at least isn't playing to "ooooo scary mental illness" tropes like Jeritza/DK and Dimitri.
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Sep 13, 2020 23:02
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Even with Jeritza it's shown that him dissociating is because of the murders he did, not why he the murder. Which is...something, given the rest of his character.
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Sep 13, 2020 23:33
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Like Clockwork posted:Like, Edelgard's issues are barely touched on which is probably why she ends up passable given every other obviously mentally ill character in the game, but she at least isn't playing to "ooooo scary mental illness" tropes like Jeritza/DK and Dimitri. Edelgard's issues are exactly the same as Rhea's. She will do anything and everything she has to in order to avoid being hurt again, and to keep what happened to her from ever happening to anyone else.
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Sep 13, 2020 23:36
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Yeah, the thing is that Edelgard has fairly realistic PTSD and trust issues, whereas Dimitri has full-on Cinematic Madness.
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Sep 13, 2020 23:41
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I didn't say her and Rhea's issues aren't clear, I said they weren't heavily touched on. Constance, Jeritza/DK, Bernadetta, and Dimitri all go real deep in showing how their mental illness affects them and all of them are handled with hands made of ham. Claude (arguably), Rhea, and Edelgard don't, and are (un)shockingly the ones who look like they're handled even slightly well (and even then, issues are played for laughs with the lords at least; I don't think Rhea shows up enough for that, though). I'm certain if they actually tried to make it as focal as it is in AM they'd all be trash, because this game does not handle mental illness terrible well overall. Like, maybe I'm missing a character who is clearly Meant To Be Mentally Ill outside of those who is handled better, but I'm coming up blank. E: note that outside of Rhea I do like all the characters mentioned. I'm just annoyed by this clear trend in how they're written.
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Sep 13, 2020 23:47
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Eimi posted:But then we wouldn't have Edeleth and that's a crime. Dating your students is a crime, yes.
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Sep 13, 2020 23:51
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No it isn’t Hell it won’t even get you fired from most colleges
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Sep 13, 2020 23:57
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And given her student is literally the Emperor I'm sure she can get Byleth a pardon even if it is.
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Sep 13, 2020 23:59
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Also like none of them have been Byleth's student for 5 years by the time they date. I don't think there's anywhere that would be remotely illegal. Skeevy and uncomfortable? Yep. But someone being a student doesn't give them some sort of permanent legal modifier that makes it illegal to date them years after graduation. It's also not even particularly taboo considering Macron in France.
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Sep 14, 2020 00:03
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Like Clockwork posted:Like, maybe I'm missing a character who is clearly Meant To Be Mentally Ill outside of those who is handled better, but I'm coming up blank. Marianne? I wouldn't say she's handled well, but she's better than the rest of the full ham crew. And most of the characters are defined by trauma in some way or another, depending on where you set the bar. Like, Jeritza is the dissociation cartoon, but Felix, Dedue and I think Lysithea are all more grounded examples of it.
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Sep 14, 2020 00:11
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Zore posted:Also like the Lions route isn't bad because of Dimitri really, but because of how everyone around him acts. Because holy poo poo they all know he's completely unfit to lead them and doing insanely self destructive things but keep following his orders anyways for no reason beyond 'well he was born to be king I guess'.
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Sep 14, 2020 00:11
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I mean you could argue that most of the cast is the way they are because of trauma but it's not really brought up as much as compared to Mr. KILL EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM.
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Sep 14, 2020 00:23
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I still think that the most hosed up thing in Azure Moon is Dimitri scolding Edelgard for wanting to overthrow the Crest system by force, arguing that oppression can't happen because people will rise up against unjust rulers. Three months after he had an epiphany and shut down the death cult whose only guiding principle was "we can't not do what Dimitri says, he's the king!"
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Sep 14, 2020 00:23
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Zane posted:this is what we call good setting appropriate narrative drama. sometimes kings are mentally hosed up but you have to do what they say. a dilemma you have to confront with edelgard and rhea as well. and not so infrequent in actual history. That's....not what they were going for. In fact Dimitri himself, for all his faults, doesn't care about leading them. They push him to be king and enable all his bullshit, with no real pressure over their head. Like Dimitri is the only survivor of a dead line. They're the only ones who know he's alive. He's a wanted criminal, if you want to bring real feudal politics here, they don't have to do jack poo poo, he can take an accident in the woods and what do you know ti's King Felix the First's turn.
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Sep 14, 2020 00:24
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