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Vahakyla posted:You have to make the argument about the institution, because not every cop is a Hitler. Every cop is a Hitler. Every single one of them is a prison guard at Auschwitz. You keep taking what we're saying and twisting it back to the idea that not every cop is directly, personally, actively killing black people and suppressing dissent with violence and they're simply cogs in a bad machine. They're not. They're all individually putting people to the sword, helping others put people to the sword, paying their unions and police foundations to run mass disinformation campaigns about how putting people to the sword is good actually, intimidating and threatening politicians who try to put fewer people to the sword, and beating and maiming people who come out to protest the putting of people to the sword. If there were ever a truth & reconciliation commission on the crimes of American police, every single loving cop would end up in prison for what they've done and continue to do.
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Sep 12, 2020 19:11
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You people are loving cartoon characters. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Sep 12, 2020 19:42
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The Oldest Man posted:Every cop is a Hitler. Every single one of them is a prison guard at Auschwitz. You keep taking what we're saying and twisting it back to the idea that not every cop is directly, personally, actively killing black people and suppressing dissent with violence and they're simply cogs in a bad machine. They're not. They're all individually putting people to the sword, helping others put people to the sword, paying their unions and police foundations to run mass disinformation campaigns about how putting people to the sword is good actually, intimidating and threatening politicians who try to put fewer people to the sword, and beating and maiming people who come out to protest the putting of people to the sword. I'm interested how you reconcile this extremist view with this poll, which shows 61% of Black Americans want the police presence in their area to stay the same. 20% say they want it to increase, 19% say they want it to decrease. https://news.gallup.com/poll/316571/black-americans-police-retain-local-presence.aspx quote:Most Black Americans want the police to spend at least as much time in their area as they currently do, indicating that they value the need for the service that police provide. However, that exposure comes with more trepidation for Black than White or Hispanic Americans about what they might experience in a police encounter. And those harboring the least confidence that they will be treated well, or who have had negative encounters in the past, are much more likely to want the police presence curtailed. It's pretty interesting that this thread seems to be overwhelmingly in favour of completely abolishing the police, but the majority of Black Americans don't seem to share that view.
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Sep 13, 2020 23:26
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The issue with law enforcement aren't at all universal in all United States communities. Maximalist or Absolutist positions are often regarded as ridiculous.
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Sep 13, 2020 23:52
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CelestialScribe posted:I'm interested how you reconcile this extremist view with this poll, which shows 61% of Black Americans want the police presence in their area to stay the same. 20% say they want it to increase, 19% say they want it to decrease. So what? Public opinion doesn’t change the facts, all cops are bastards.
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Sep 14, 2020 02:36
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ElCondemn posted:So what? Public opinion doesn’t change the facts, all cops are bastards. The point of saying "ACAB" is to say, "abolish the police", and it probably matters a little that despite someone in this thread saying all cops should literally be jailed (side note: p ironic considering I'd bet that same poster wants to abolish prisons), many black communities say that "actually we think the amount of policing we have is good we'd just like to be treated like human loving beings".
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Sep 14, 2020 02:42
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I know secure upper class white people are super angry about the terminology and the entire concept, but wasn't defund the police polling at some 40% positive, while abolish the police was at around 10%? Or in other words, comparable to gay marriage in 2008 (defund the police) and 1990 (abolish the police)?
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Sep 14, 2020 02:47
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CelestialScribe posted:"actually we think the amount of policing we have is good we'd just like to be treated like human loving beings". they want something other than police then, or at least other than beat cops, because the job of a beat cop is to find people to treat inhumanely public safety doesn't have to come in the form of policing, which as an institution is less than 200 years old
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Sep 14, 2020 02:47
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cheetah7071 posted:they want something other than police then, or at least other than beat cops, because the job of a beat cop is to find people to treat inhumanely Okay, sure - but how does that explain the results of that poll?
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Sep 14, 2020 02:49
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CelestialScribe posted:The point of saying "ACAB" is to say, "abolish the police", and it probably matters a little that despite someone in this thread saying all cops should literally be jailed (side note: p ironic considering I'd bet that same poster wants to abolish prisons), many black communities say that "actually we think the amount of policing we have is good we'd just like to be treated like human loving beings". The point of saying "ACAB" is that "All cops are Bastards". It does not matter how people feel about cops, what is your point?
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Sep 14, 2020 02:49
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ElCondemn posted:The point of saying "ACAB" is that "All Cops are Bastards". It does not matter how people feel about cops, what is your point? My point is that it's probably relevant to consider that black communities still overwhelmingly say they want a police presence.
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Sep 14, 2020 02:51
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CelestialScribe posted:Okay, sure - but how does that explain the results of that poll? That article indicates that black people wished that the police in the neighborhoods were able to provide higher quality interactions. That they weren't just randomly brutalizing people. That they could be trusted. It isn't that they don't want police to exist, but that they wished they could interact reasonably with their police. Do you understand, as a wealthy white foreigner, why a minority American might feel this way?
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Sep 14, 2020 02:52
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CelestialScribe posted:Okay, sure - but how does that explain the results of that poll? alternatives to policing as the primary agency by which the state attempts to increase public safety have basically gotten no attention, or at best have gotten them only very recently and cursorily. I bet you'd get pretty different results if instead the poll was "some have proposed <X> as an alternative to policing. If your local government was willing to implement that, would you want police presence to increase, decrease or stay the same in your neighborhood?", filling in various different proposals for X. If that poll did come out with more or less the same results then well I guess I have egg on my face, but by and large I've found that anybody I've talked to who isn't waving a thin blue line flag is more or less sympathetic to the idea that the way policing is structured is fundamentally not the best way to approach public safety, but sometimes when they hear "defund" or "abolish" they fill in the blanks with "with no replacement" Setting aside that I personally think abolition with no replacement would be a net positive over the status quo, having the poll clarify the difference between abolition with and without replacement is bound to make a huge difference on the results
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Sep 14, 2020 02:54
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this is setting aside the fact that public safety is really a secondary concern at best of the institution of policing compared to maintaining the interests of the powerful at the expense of the weak by force; a century or more of pro-cop propaganda has sold that lie already
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Sep 14, 2020 02:57
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cheetah7071 posted:this is setting aside the fact that public safety is really a secondary concern at best of the institution of policing compared to maintaining the interests of the powerful at the expense of the weak by force; a century or more of pro-cop propaganda has sold that lie already But police are good, the people who responded to the poll said so!
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Sep 14, 2020 03:03
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litany of gulps posted:That article indicates that black people wished that the police in the neighborhoods were able to provide higher quality interactions. That they weren't just randomly brutalizing people. That they could be trusted. It isn't that they don't want police to exist, but that they wished they could interact reasonably with their police. ...yeah? I pointed that out? Also I dunno why everyone seems to think I'm wealthy.
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Sep 14, 2020 03:18
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cheetah7071 posted:alternatives to policing as the primary agency by which the state attempts to increase public safety have basically gotten no attention, or at best have gotten them only very recently and cursorily. I bet you'd get pretty different results if instead the poll was "some have proposed <X> as an alternative to policing. If your local government was willing to implement that, would you want police presence to increase, decrease or stay the same in your neighborhood?", filling in various different proposals for X. 100%. But I think it's interesting that only 20% say they want less involvement. If these communities felt like the situation was as dire as some of the rhetoric in this thread suggests, surely that figure would be higher, would it not? Edit: Just to clarify, if this thread is not for debate and discussion, then what is it for? Is it a place to share stories of people getting attacked by police?
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Sep 14, 2020 03:20
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CelestialScribe posted:...yeah? I pointed that out? Why do you, as an upper class white foreigner, feel so confident about your commentary about American social issues?
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Sep 14, 2020 03:21
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CelestialScribe posted:Just to clarify, if this thread is not for debate and discussion, then what is it for? Is it a place to share stories of people getting attacked by police? fwiw, the purpose of this thread is to discuss what to replace police with, or how to go about defunding, not to discuss whether those are justified. I don't know if there's a dedicated thread for that question the impetus of this thread was people in uspol asking "what are people actually suggesting when they say defund/abolish?" iirc
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Sep 14, 2020 03:23
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litany of gulps posted:Why do you, as an upper class white foreigner, feel so confident about your commentary about American social issues? I pointed to a poll to contribute to the discussion. I'm sorry if that's not allowed anymore.
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Sep 14, 2020 03:24
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CelestialScribe posted:I pointed to a poll to contribute to the discussion. I'm sorry if that's not allowed anymore. I can't allow or not allow anything, buddy. I'm sorry you can't respond to the question with any substance. I guess it struck to the quick.
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Sep 14, 2020 03:25
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cheetah7071 posted:fwiw, the purpose of this thread is to discuss what to replace police with, or how to go about defunding, not to discuss whether those are justified. I don't know if there's a dedicated thread for that question Okay! Fair enough! But why is it that when those questions are asked, "what do community patrols look like" etc, the answers are variations on, "oh we don't know yet" or "look at what this community did over here". Is this thread not to discuss the various flaws and positives of that model? Like it seems the pre-requisite for engaging in this thread is, "you must believe in abolishing the police". If that's the case, then fine, but I don't see that really stated outright.
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Sep 14, 2020 03:26
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CelestialScribe posted:Okay! Fair enough! But why is it that when those questions are asked, "what do community patrols look like" etc, the answers are variations on, "oh we don't know yet" or "look at what this community did over here". Is this thread not to discuss the various flaws and positives of that model? But we know that your disingenuous questions only are present in order to pose the real question that you care about - what about MY assets?
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Sep 14, 2020 03:28
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litany of gulps posted:But we know that your disingenuous questions only are present in order to pose the real question that you care about - what about MY assets? I've contributed to the discussion with a relevant piece of data. If you disagree with the take, explain why.
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Sep 14, 2020 03:30
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CelestialScribe posted:I've contributed to the discussion with a relevant piece of data. If you disagree with the take, explain why. So a dozen posts back, your entitlement as a white wealthy foreigner says that you post an article about how Black Americans feel justifies your indefinite posting about what actually Black Americans mean about police?
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Sep 14, 2020 03:35
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Your one random article post has me waiting with bated breath to hear the opinion of a random wealthy white Australian man about the opinions of the American minority population. I cannot wait to hear what CelestialScribe says about the experience of minorities from another country. Fill us with your wisdom.
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Sep 14, 2020 03:41
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litany of gulps posted:So a dozen posts back, your entitlement as a white wealthy foreigner says that you post an article about how Black Americans feel justifies your indefinite posting about what actually Black Americans mean about police? If you're accusing me of posting in bad faith, you should probably stop doing the same. For one thing, I'm not wealthy.
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Sep 14, 2020 03:47
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CelestialScribe posted:If you're accusing me of posting in bad faith, you should probably stop doing the same. For one thing, I'm not wealthy. Who measures whether or not the posting is in good or bad faith? Because let's be real, anyone trying to measure whether or not anything you post is in good faith, they're going to struggle. While any words from my mouth, they're honest. I don't think honest is something you can claim, one way or another.
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Sep 14, 2020 03:49
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Ok so what alternative models are there to uniformed police? Off the top of my head I can think of a few: - Hands-off police enforcement (state still enforces but without visible police presence. Upsides: less visible intimidation. Downsides: I mean it’s a secret police basically. The lack of transparency probably makes abuse worse. Included only for completeness). - Consensual enforcement (state doesnt enforce but relies on consent for people to show up in court and comply with penalties. Upsides: low potential for abuse. Downsides: what if people don’t consent?) - Community policing (local communities enforce their own rules. Upsides: strong enforcement, low potential for external abuse, high degree of community buy-in. Downsides: You’d need some kind of reciprocal mechanism to protect strangers from abuse when outside their own community. It’s also probably not possible to have effective protection of minorities within a community without the backup of an external authority). - Private law enforcement (local powerful individuals or groups enforce their own rules. Upsides: Strong enforcement, low potential for external abuse. Downsides: Likely to result in arbitrariness, lots of potential for abuse within system.)
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Sep 14, 2020 03:50
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litany of gulps posted:Who measures whether or not the posting is in good or bad faith? Because let's be real, anyone trying to measure whether or not anything you post is in good faith, they're going to struggle. While any words from my mouth, they're honest. I don't think honest is something you can claim, one way or another. Okay, great. So you've established that there is no real way to understand if you or I are motivated in good or bad faith. So why not just focus on the substance of my posts, instead of whatever fantasy you've come up with in my head about who I am and how much money I have?
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Sep 14, 2020 03:51
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CelestialScribe posted:Okay, great. So you've established that there is no real way to understand if you or I are motivated in good or bad faith. So why not just focus on the substance of my posts, instead of whatever fantasy you've come up with in my head about who I am and how much money I have? You're here trying to undermine the lived experience of any Black American. Why?
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Sep 14, 2020 03:52
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Beefeater1980 posted:Ok so what alternative models are there to uniformed police? Off the top of my head I can think of a few: When we talk about these proposals, I'm wondering what kind of crimes you're imagining? Because I can definitely see the first and second working for anything minor because you can apply pressure in other ways. E.g. Don't show up to court? Then your car registration fees are 20% higher, or whatever, I dunno. To me those first two seem the most realistic. I'm terrified of community policing. It assumes that all communities play by the same set of values, and they don't - which you've rightly pointed out. It also leaves a lot to ad hoc policing and inconsistent regulations. I'm not a fan of living in an area where I have a neighbour who won't turn his music off at 2am, but I can't do anything about it because the rest of the neighbourhood doesn't seem to care, you know? I don't disagree that there are plenty of communities where the community policing model would be a huge improvement though. In the worst case scenario, your community policing and private law enforcement models are the same thing.
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Sep 14, 2020 03:57
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litany of gulps posted:You're here trying to undermine the lived experience of any Black American. Why? How exactly am I doing that?
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Sep 14, 2020 03:57
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CelestialScribe posted:How exactly am I doing that? CelestialScribe posted:When we talk about these proposals, I'm wondering what kind of crimes you're imagining? Do you not get that the thread is talking about police extrajudicial execution, while you're whining about being terrified about not being able to call the cops on your neighbors for playing their music too loud?
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Sep 14, 2020 04:00
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litany of gulps posted:Do you not get that the thread is talking about police extrajudicial execution, while you're whining about being terrified about not being able to call the cops on your neighbors for playing their music too loud? quote:This came up as an interesting conversation in another thread and I figured this could bear some fleshing out. This is the OP. This thread is about discussing what policing and law enforcement looks like in a world without police. Edit: Like, if you're not willing to engage in any discussion about the practicalities of abolishing the police, then that's fine - but I feel like this thread isn't for you.
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Sep 14, 2020 04:05
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CelestialScribe posted:This is the OP. This thread is about discussing what policing and law enforcement looks like in a world without police. Right, and you, terrified white man, cannot imagine a world in which you cannot call the cops on your neighbors for playing music. Do you even understand the premise of this world we live in?
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Sep 14, 2020 04:07
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litany of gulps posted:Right, and you, terrified white man, cannot imagine a world in which you cannot call the cops on your neighbors for playing music. Do you even understand the premise of this world we live in? What I said was that the cons of a community policing include inconsistent rules and enforcement, which is a completely viable criticism of that type of policing. The post I was responding to include other possibilities, including ones like hands-off and consensual enforcement, which I find much more viable. It seems like your only metric for deciding whether a policing model works is how many people are killed by police. In short, if the police can't kill people, then the model works, right? I think that's a pretty short-sighted view. It's clear that policing in America requires drastic overhaul, even abolition. But a policing model should be judged on a range of different metrics. People not being killed by police is definitely the top priority for any model, I'd say. But it isn't the only basis by which a policing model should be assessed. CelestialScribe fucked around with this message at 04:15 on Sep 14, 2020 |
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Sep 14, 2020 04:13
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CelestialScribe posted:What I said was that the cons of a community policing include inconsistent rules and enforcement CelestialScribe posted:I'm terrified of community policing. Yeah? Sounds like you don't even have a perspective that matters, you're a liar, and you're also probably starting from a racist perspective.
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Sep 14, 2020 04:21
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litany of gulps posted:Yeah? Sounds like you don't even have a perspective that matters, you're a liar, and you're also probably starting from a racist perspective. Okay.
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Sep 14, 2020 04:22
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CelestialScribe posted:Okay. In this whole conversation, you entire defense was that you posted some random article alongside your hysteria about the idea of no police. You're at best frantic that your property rights might be infringed, you can't even tangentially engage with the actual concepts of police reform.
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Sep 14, 2020 04:25
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