|
When 2h swords were rediculous it was definitely fine to just use nothing else, I think they got nerfed one too many times though and now they're pretty bad.
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2020 12:34
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 27, 2024 09:37 |
|
|
With sword lances being a thing now a back line of 3-5 swordlances is very effective and kind of the best of both worlds. If you can get warscythe those are good too but swordlances are at least common enough in the south you can have a good handful by day 60. Well at least if you can recruit glads, maybe not so much if you can’t.RabidWeasel posted:When 2h swords were rediculous it was definitely fine to just use nothing else, I think they got nerfed one too many times though and now they're pretty bad. I don’t really agree on the grounds you both good AoE options and they still have a hit chance bonus. I have my Lion glad who picked up a Greatsword on day 30 and that has done a shitload of work, to the point I’m happy mastering him with it until a named one comes along. Sure you don’t want to use them everywhere but it’s not like they are actually that suboptimal in 95% of situations; if named swords are all you’re seeing pop up you should definitely still be keeping/using them for the most part. Mazz fucked around with this message at 12:48 on Sep 18, 2020 |
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2020 12:40
|
|
|
RabidWeasel posted:Playing for max AoE is definitely one way to play but I've come round to mass polearms instead because they give you a huge mobility boost and are less stat intensive (no need for mdef if you can avoid having most of your bros take more than 1 or 2 swings per fight). You compensate for lower damage output per unit by more consistently being able to attack with every unit every turn and by being able to focus attacks onto a single target. I do both - I love polearms; I usually have 3 of them not including sergeant although I only take 2 to most fights. They get a warscythe and a swordlance for when the warscythe breaks. You can often find cheap miners and the like with high 80s or even low 90s attack but poo poo fatigue.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2020 12:42
|
|
|
dogstile posted:Polearms for the big damage once the frontline shears off the armour. Tempted to make my backline entirely duellist whips for a run, but that might be too much fuckery. Duelist whip for getting bleed through armour? I have a cleaver duelist that uses one, and I've found you have to get armour down to almost nothing for any bleed to apply. The Unhold tamer ones start a bit sooner, but still only when there's a few armour points left. They are very nice for laying on the hurt when armour is gone from several tiles away, it just does not seem that the duelist perk is worth anything on a whip specifically.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2020 12:55
|
|
|
Nah, Duellist whip as actual damage dealers to health and have my front line be all hammers and maces. I don't think it'll be worth that much, its more of a fun experiment. Duellist works with nets/firebombs so you can have a backline full of people who's sole job is to disarm and gently caress with anyone who actually engages your hammer line until the armour is gone. With so much range anyone who actually loses armour is going to eat 10 whip attacks the next turn. I don't really expect it to be all that effective compared to conventional fighting, but it does seem like it'd be fun.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2020 12:58
|
|
|
As an added bonus they could quickhand to a 2h cleaver when the enemy gets all up close and personal. A nimble guy can tank a few hits, so using cleavers to put on the hurt towards the end may be very viable. It's pretty much how I use my cleaver duelist. He tosses nets and bombs (no B&B mind), disarms the big threats, and then when the armours are coming loose he goes on a killing spree. I'm hoping to make another whip guy who'll keep that named 2H cleaver I found in the back pocket.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2020 13:12
|
|
|
I’ve tested duelist whips for damage purposes and they’re really bad against anything with even slight amounts of armour. Unless you’re fighting nachzhehrers or thralls or something they can’t carry their weight. I can barely justify having a whip guy for the disarm.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2020 13:15
|
|
|
The Lord Bude posted:I’ve tested duelist whips for damage purposes and they’re really bad against anything with even slight amounts of armour. Unless you’re fighting nachzhehrers or thralls or something they can’t carry their weight. I can barely justify having a whip guy for the disarm. Yeah this isn't for endgame efficiency so i wouldn't worry about it.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2020 13:29
|
|
|
Elitist build advice please: He started at -4 MDef so he'll just about make it to 30, which is a bit low for my company of elitist gladiators. I'm considering making him a frontline polearm type guy, which can rotate into place and lop the heads of the backline in heavy armour. He'll have the fatigue to wear a castle, so it should be workable. Not sure how much melee defense I need, but I may put some of the max rolls into resolve and HP and settle for around 25? Ack, that does sound low. Ah! the agony of almost superb tier bro's. There's also this guy which should work as a fearsome polearmer.  It does bother me that i don't get to use the melee stars for no other reasons than OCD, but he should be able to get to decent Res, Fat and MAtk. TheBeardyCleaver fucked around with this message at 15:28 on Sep 18, 2020 |
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2020 15:26
|
|
|
I'd probably just make him into a 1h mace bro, tbh. A shield and stuns while wearing a tanks worth of armour means he's probably pretty safe while making any enemy near him a non issue. I'm really into my mace bro's right now though. They're so loving good.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2020 15:32
|
|
|
Iron Lungs on your wildman means he can tolerate putting the occasional fatigue roll into HP and resolve, but you're already at pretty decent levels for both (shove that guy in the arena and he'll have another 10 resolve without using any levelups, and 85 HP is not bad) so don't do it unless you're getting a max roll. Personally I'd be tempted to max out MAtk and MDef and make them into a really good 2-hander, whether that's hammers/axes/swords or a frontline polearm is up to you.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2020 15:57
|
|
|
dogstile posted:I'd probably just make him into a 1h mace bro, tbh. A shield and stuns while wearing a tanks worth of armour means he's probably pretty safe while making any enemy near him a non issue. I'm really into my mace bro's right now though. They're so loving good. I already have one mace+shield tank. Not sure I want another. Max damage and kills for morale cascades is the way I'm leaning right now. It's a fine idea though, I just think I'd rather want a mace duelist for stuns, and his MDef won't quite be there. Going for the top of the line specific builds that noone is ever likely to actually need. vyelkin posted:Iron Lungs on your wildman means he can tolerate putting the occasional fatigue roll into HP and resolve, but you're already at pretty decent levels for both (shove that guy in the arena and he'll have another 10 resolve without using any levelups, and 85 HP is not bad) so don't do it unless you're getting a max roll. Personally I'd be tempted to max out MAtk and MDef and make them into a really good 2-hander, whether that's hammers/axes/swords or a frontline polearm is up to you. He'd only be an upper mediocre 2H with 30 MDef though. I'd like 40 on anyone that is to stand and trade with chosen. My 50 MDef guy still needs his arse pulled out of the fire on occasion, but my 30 guy needs to be real careful. I'm thinking that a polearmer can last a long battle without getting his armour worn down since he can stand a tile away a fair bit of the time, but still go toe to toe when needed.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2020 16:54
|
|
|
TheBeardyCleaver posted:I already have one mace+shield tank. Not sure I want another. Max damage and kills for morale cascades is the way I'm leaning right now. It's a fine idea though, I just think I'd rather want a mace duelist for stuns, and his MDef won't quite be there. Going for the top of the line specific builds that noone is ever likely to actually need. One thing I've been trying out and liking is a pole/twohander quick hands guy. Give him rotate and let him frontline when he needs to, smack dudes from two tiles away if you don't.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2020 16:58
|
|
|
I'd probably give that guy axe mastery and quick hands and have him switch between a bardiche and longaxe. He's not tanky enough to be able to full 2h tank but he's tanky enough that you can afford to have him move into a good spot for the occasional split.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2020 17:26
|
|
|
WarpedLichen posted:One thing I've been trying out and liking is a pole/twohander quick hands guy. Give him rotate and let him frontline when he needs to, smack dudes from two tiles away if you don't. Yea, I like this idea, since rotate costs 3 points you can rescue/reposition a guy and swing for the fences in the same turn. I used this when the polehammers came out to have the best of two worlds. The question is then is if I should forego the polearm mastery and just have him be a hammer guy, or possibly just have an unperked sword in the back pocket. Does the 2H mace fit here maybe? Swing for 3 in the backline and rotate in to daze tank when some arse of a chosen positions himself inconveniently. Edit RabidWeasel posted:I'd probably give that guy axe mastery and quick hands and have him switch between a bardiche and longaxe. He's not tanky enough to be able to full 2h tank but he's tanky enough that you can afford to have him move into a good spot for the occasional split. This is also a good option. I find longaxes a bit underwhelming as i rarely split shields, but I may find some awesome named one. Might be I go digging through locations and see what turns up. OR! This is the guy I have use the Jirok cleaver while whip-tanking from the back. May be a poor use of the Cleaver as one might want that in the front always if it turns out to be good. Do have a named 2H cleaver, but it's not that special. TheBeardyCleaver fucked around with this message at 17:38 on Sep 18, 2020 |
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2020 17:33
|
|
|
Welp, RIP to my secondary archer, second tank and potential polearm master, left because I got a ritual in the middle of a caravan escort mission. Man, Cultists are so stressful before you have a full core team of cultists. On the bright side, I did manage to convert a poacher with 3 stars in RA.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2020 18:23
|
|
|
TheBeardyCleaver posted:Yea, I like this idea, since rotate costs 3 points you can rescue/reposition a guy and swing for the fences in the same turn. I used this when the polehammers came out to have the best of two worlds. The question is then is if I should forego the polearm mastery and just have him be a hammer guy, or possibly just have an unperked sword in the back pocket. Does the 2H mace fit here maybe? Swing for 3 in the backline and rotate in to daze tank when some arse of a chosen positions himself inconveniently. 2h mace + swordlance and polearm mastery is a similar concept to the double axes but with more of an emphasis on the polearm side of the equation. Probably stronger overall, you're not going to find a better guy to use a swordlance than one with 140 fatigue and iron lungs unless you get someone with rediculous levels of matk and good fatigue to go with it. The smart choice if you already have plenty of 2h tanks.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2020 18:48
|
|
|
RabidWeasel posted:2h mace + swordlance and polearm mastery is a similar concept to the double axes but with more of an emphasis on the polearm side of the equation. Probably stronger overall, you're not going to find a better guy to use a swordlance than one with 140 fatigue and iron lungs unless you get someone with rediculous levels of matk and good fatigue to go with it. The smart choice if you already have plenty of 2h tanks. It's a good plan. Most of the lads are 2H tanks, and I already have a decent named laying about in the inventory, so may as well try it out. Next issue is finding good throwing weapons. Fought a good few large barbarian groups, and gotten all of one set of javelins and one set of axes. Many archer shops in the seed too. Are there named heavy throwing weapons? I'm guessing it's reavers who's most likely to have them, but there are no reaver champions. Guess I'll go look for the barbarian king or some other harebrained scheme like that.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2020 22:13
|
|
|
TheBeardyCleaver posted:It's a good plan. Most of the lads are 2H tanks, and I already have a decent named laying about in the inventory, so may as well try it out. Not sure, but I have found named javelins better than heavies:  Now I just need to actually build a thrower lmao.
|
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2020 01:59
|
|
|
Slightly better at least. Hopefully named heavy ones exist somehow. Went hunting barbarian groups, that helped with the heavy ones at least. Just have to grind. Still need more. They do some fine damage, and the axes are great against Ifrit and herr skellington.
|
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2020 02:05
|
|
|
I don’t think named versions of heavy throwing weapons exist but named regular versions should be better than regular heavy versions especially after the nerf. Also heavy throwing weapons have an accuracy penalty which named regular versions won’t have. As for finding heavy throwing weapons; obviously you need to find large groups of reavers but I have an unsubstantiated hunch that they only drop (or are more likely to drop) if the reaver has them equipped when they die; so maybe try focusing archers on reavers currently holding throwing weapons.
|
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2020 02:55
|
|
|
The Lord Bude posted:I don’t think named versions of heavy throwing weapons exist but named regular versions should be better than regular heavy versions especially after the nerf. Also heavy throwing weapons have an accuracy penalty which named regular versions won’t have. Very possible. I went and offed a barbarian king and he had some reavers. Focused them down fast to put the chosen in a bad mood, and I got 3 sets all of a sudden. Pretty sure they were still trying to toss things at the lads. I forgot about the -5% on heavies. Still haven't seen the slightest sniff of a named tosser, but that's likely just luck, as my earlier runs have had a few, incidentally before I got my eyes open to how good throwing was. Edit: I found a decent use for ranged defense though. Sticking ranged guys with good defense in front saves you having to use a shield (not that I do that much). Keeping a 2H with rotate behind is a good way to get the AI to rush in and try to kill the archer, only to get an axe in the face. This of course exposes the archer to damage, but it's very little, as nimblers are quite tough with even just 75 HP. Some bone attachments or an unhold cloak makes them a good arrow catcher too. Started doing this after fighting loads of goblins and brigands, and getting tired of seeing the guys eat missiles. TheBeardyCleaver fucked around with this message at 03:50 on Sep 19, 2020 |
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2020 03:42
|
|
|
I really want to fit bag and belts + quick hands on my backline so that they can carry a shield to block ranged attacks and rotate out, but it seems like a ton of perks to invest when I would rather have fairly killy polearm dudes.
|
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2020 20:52
|
|
|
WarpedLichen posted:I really want to fit bag and belts + quick hands on my backline so that they can carry a shield to block ranged attacks and rotate out, but it seems like a ton of perks to invest when I would rather have fairly killy polearm dudes. Yea, I used to do this before they removed quickhands on shields, but now I find it not to be worth it. B&B is still nice for grenades and nets if you're into that thing, but not worth it otherwise. I take it on my throwers, since they need the ammo, and I'll keep something fun in the offhand and maybe in one of the bag slots, depending on the encounter.
|
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2020 22:24
|
|
|
 Argh, this is the first time I get this event, and of course it's when I'm doing a cultist run. Edit: Man, Blade Dancers are not to be trifled with. I kited 5 Lindwurms into a big Nomad camp, and one blade dancer tanked 3 of them pretty much on his own while I cleared out the rest of the camp. Broken Cog fucked around with this message at 21:19 on Sep 20, 2020 |
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2020 17:53
|
|
|
So I just cleared the black monolith, and holy poo poo is my company more powerful than my last one before the expansion. 1 attempt; 12 rounds, zero deaths. Last campaign it took me well over a dozen attempts to get a result I was happy with, and I had a few guys struck down. Guns make a huge difference. There are so many enemies that you can pretty much hit max targets every round. Applying overwhelm with the guns and the warscythes helped a lot as well - my guys weren't getting hit very often at all. Overwhelm obviously isn't new with the expansion but I'd never considered it before this run and it's a night and day difference. My mace duelist was incredible. With the high damage named mace I found he can almost 1 shot an honour guard; he just tore through their ranks. The change to potions makes a huge difference as well - they're too expensive/scarce to be using them often, but I stockpiled enough to give 7 of my bros a stamina potion; my two warscythe bros each ate a mushroom - having the mushroom buff for an entire battle is huge - and some of my guys got plus resolve or iron will potions.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2020 08:12
|
|
|
dogstile posted:
In the late game, under what circumstances would you field spear tanks instead of hammerers? E: to be clear, this is a genuine question. Late game I’m never sure how to balance out my front line. Beefeater1980 fucked around with this message at 10:17 on Sep 21, 2020 |
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2020 10:13
|
|
|
Beefeater1980 posted:In the late game, under what circumstances would you field spear tanks instead of hammerers? The traditional explanation for spears is that using spearwall helps funnel enemies into the centre of your line and makes it harder for large groups of enemies to surround you and get at your back line. You can also use them more generally to keep enemies away from vulnerable back liners. But as I've experimented I'm no longer sure you really need that at all - maybe it's because in a peasant army I have a wider line so there's naturally less surrounding going on. I still use my tanks in some fights - vs orcs and unholds to hold them in place with indom/break their charge. Vs Goblins because I don't really need the extra damage of a 2hander and being able to move 2 hexes and attack is useful in dealing with the footwork using little shits. I guess spears would be useful against hard to hit stuff like geists and blade dancers.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2020 10:42
|
|
|
Beefeater1980 posted:In the late game, under what circumstances would you field spear tanks instead of hammerers? Enemies that are hard to hit but also hit hard get the spear tank treatment. Some late game enemies like blademasters are loving hard to hit even with decent late game brothers, so you can have spear tanks taunt them/hit them with the extra 10%. I use the tanks on either side of my line to funnel the rest of the enemies towards the center (and if a blademaster goes near the centre he's gonna get netted/stabbed the death by my quick hands utility bro + friends). If the spear tank is on a side where the enemy dangerous guy isn't, then he just protects the backline with spear wall. Spear tanks buy an extra 2 or so turns if you place them correctly. More if they don't miss. To be fair, I don't actually balance my front line so much for late game aside from "have a couple bro's using 2h can do damage" and "have stun bro's" so its not like i'm thinking about this every battle, but i do optimise a little for the late game 32 enemy camps that the game likes to throw at you. E: And yeah, peasant army advice would be to just have a wider frontline. The backline is traditionally gonna be a lot harder to get to in a peasant army, especially as your guys can just fold back into a circle if you're really gonna get pushed.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2020 11:55
|
|
|
It's hard to say what's "good" when using peasants, since they kinda break the game. You have the freedom to build them differently from the other backgrounds.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2020 12:17
|
|
|
I'd definitely be interested to see if 'give a bunch of people fearsome and/or overwhelm' is as gamebreaking with 12 men as it is with 16. In addition to absolutely crushing the black monolith I also obliterated a camp of 40 orcs today with no problems; (although at least 20 of them were young; there was one warlord, half a dozen warriors and maybe a dozen or so beserkers). How it came about was there was an orc camp I wanted to attack, and a party of orcs moving on the map close enough that they joined the same combat - which also meant some of them came at me from the top of the map (but close enough that they were in the combat by the second round). Most of the orcs were fleeing by round 4 thanks to fearsome. And I finally found a named swordlance... In a barbarian camp waist deep in snow of all places. 78-104 damage and -3 fatigue from weapon skills. The Lord Bude fucked around with this message at 12:42 on Sep 21, 2020 |
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2020 12:39
|
|
|
Oh Overwhelm/Fearsome on the backline definitely works, I can attest to that from my cultist game (and fearsome when everyone has 70+ resolve without banner buffs is pretty nuts).
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2020 12:47
|
|
|
Broken Cog posted:Oh Overwhelm/Fearsome on the backline definitely works, I can attest to that from my cultist game (and fearsome when everyone has 70+ resolve without banner buffs is pretty nuts). I give any frontliner that uses a 1h weapon fearsome as well though. and nimble duelists get both fearsome and overwhelm. Not sure if it's correct vs giving them crippling strikes/executioner instead but I like it and I was concerned that as I replaced shieldbros with duelists in my front line that I was going to slip below the effective threshold of mass fearsome application.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2020 12:51
|
|
|
I also want to say that alps being repeatedly unable to sleep your guys during night fights is the most satisfying thing in this game.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2020 12:53
|
|
|
The Lord Bude posted:The traditional explanation for spears is that using spearwall helps funnel enemies into the centre of your line and makes it harder for large groups of enemies to surround you and get at your back line. You can also use them more generally to keep enemies away from vulnerable back liners. But as I've experimented I'm no longer sure you really need that at all - maybe it's because in a peasant army I have a wider line so there's naturally less surrounding going on. I still use my tanks in some fights - vs orcs and unholds to hold them in place with indom/break their charge. Vs Goblins because I don't really need the extra damage of a 2hander and being able to move 2 hexes and attack is useful in dealing with the footwork using little shits. I guess spears would be useful against hard to hit stuff like geists and blade dancers. I sometimes put a 1h and shield on some of my 2H guys in a full stack goblin fight since I don't really need the extra damage. Usually my hammer bros, since goblin armour  A 80 mdef is nice to always keep them punctures at 5% even if you don't care about the arrows. They still sneak in the punctures though, the bastards!  As far as fearsome goes, I only have 4/12 guys with it, and so far, it is a nice help, but not gamechanging. Training up another lancer and gunner with high resolve, so we'll see how that goes. TheBeardyCleaver fucked around with this message at 13:08 on Sep 21, 2020 |
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2020 13:05
|
|
|
The Lord Bude posted:I'd definitely be interested to see if 'give a bunch of people fearsome and/or overwhelm' is as gamebreaking with 12 men as it is with 16. In addition to absolutely crushing the black monolith I also obliterated a camp of 40 orcs today with no problems; (although at least 20 of them were young; there was one warlord, half a dozen warriors and maybe a dozen or so beserkers). How it came about was there was an orc camp I wanted to attack, and a party of orcs moving on the map close enough that they joined the same combat - which also meant some of them came at me from the top of the map (but close enough that they were in the combat by the second round). Most of the orcs were fleeing by round 4 thanks to fearsome. I'm trying it right now with a gladiator run. So far I'm only up to 7 bros but fearsome and overwhelm are still very effective.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2020 14:08
|
|
|
TheBeardyCleaver posted:I sometimes put a 1h and shield on some of my 2H guys in a full stack goblin fight since I don't really need the extra damage. Usually my hammer bros, since goblin armour Do you often manage to put 2 gunners on the field? I do with Peasants but in a 12 man company I don't think I would. I think I'd want 2 warscythes, 2 archers or javelins depending on the fight and 1 gunner.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2020 14:11
|
|
|
I run one archer one gunner. I do have a backup archer but i don't find that i need him very much.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2020 14:18
|
|
|
dogstile posted:I run one archer one gunner. I do have a backup archer but i don't find that i need him very much. do you add an extra poleman or do you run with 4 on the back line?
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2020 14:22
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 27, 2024 09:37 |
|
|
I'm experimenting with building a hybrid gunner/thrower, since guns are good for masses of enemies and throwers are good for single targets. So far though I have neither a gun nor any throwing weapons, so right now he's just plinking away with a crossbow.
|
|
#
?
Sep 21, 2020 14:26
|
|