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Dr Pepper posted:FFXIV is in no way shape or form poorly written enough to do the dumb cliche "Surprise the big good you thought was good was secretly evil all along"
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Sep 20, 2020 23:06
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I wouldn't be surprised if Emet-Selch wasn't completely literal when he claimed to be tempered, and actually meant like Elidibus always nagging him and setting him back on the path whenever his heart wavered. Rather than actually having his will overridden by Zodiark.
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Sep 20, 2020 23:08
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Vermain posted:The whole aether-swilling thing the "standard" Primals do is a consequence of them having no aether to keep them around aside from ambient aether. Ones created by the Ancients - including Hydaelyn and Zodiark - were powered by the incredible aether of the Ancients' souls and therefore don't require it to survive. I just feel like the only difference between Hydaelyn and Zodiark is that Hydaelyn won and is protecting a living society, and that Zodiark was defeated and is trying to bring back a dead society. They both serve the same function; if the people of the Source were lost to a calamity like the ascians were, she'd go to any lengths to recover them, like Zodiark does for the ascians, because she'd be answering prayers for salvation like he did.
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Sep 20, 2020 23:21
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homeless snail posted:Hydaelyn hasn't been explicitly good for like, 2 expansions now Yes she has.
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Sep 20, 2020 23:39
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Neither Hydaelen nor Zodiark are good or evil.
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Sep 20, 2020 23:41
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Dr Pepper posted:Yes she has. Even Shadowbringers has continued to hammer on Hydaelen being good. It just so happens that Zodiark is also basically good regardless of the intentions of his followers. It's a sad, tragic conflict over differing ideas of the planet's fate.
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Sep 20, 2020 23:41
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I feel like if we were meant to think summong Hydaelyn was unambiguously a good thing Azem would have been one of the Ascians who did it. She may have benevolent intentions toward us as far as we can tell, but that doesn't mean she's objectively good, or that her existence couldn't be a problem in the future.
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Sep 20, 2020 23:42
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she basically genocided all unsundered beings like, it was in an attempt to prevent a different genocide, but still
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Sep 20, 2020 23:43
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Sinteres posted:I feel like if we were meant to think summong Hydaelyn was unambiguously a good thing Azem would have been one of the Ascians who did it. She may have benevolent intentions toward us as far as we can tell, but that doesn't mean she's objectively good, or that her existence couldn't be a problem in the future. The PC is not Azem. They have a large part of the same soul, but they are not the same person.
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Sep 20, 2020 23:46
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There is no way this doesn't end with Zodiark and Hydaelyn annihilating each other like antiparticles or something. They're forces of nature, not "good" and "bad".
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Sep 20, 2020 23:50
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Cythereal posted:The PC is not Azem. They have a large part of the same soul, but they are not the same person. I realize, but we're clearly meant to identify with Azem since Azem is described as an adventurer who would go and help people all the time just for the sake of doing it, as we do in the game. If the game wanted us to think summoning Hydaelyn was a great idea, I feel like Azem wouldn't be established as wanting no part in it, in the same way that they wanted no part in summoning Zodiark.
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Sep 20, 2020 23:51
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Sinteres posted:I realize, but we're clearly meant to identify with Azem since Azem is described as an adventurer who would go and help people all the time just for the sake of doing it, as we do in the game. If the game wanted us to think summoning Hydaelyn was a great idea, I feel like Azem wouldn't be established as wanting no part in it, in the same way that they wanted no part in summoning Zodiark. Or maybe it's going to turn out that we're actually different from Azem in some respects. What was good and evil, right and wrong in Azem's time is far from guaranteed to be the same now. One of the big messages of Shadowbringers is that the world changes, and you can't bring back the past. You have to accept the new world and move on.
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Sep 20, 2020 23:54
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So whichever direction the game goes on Hydaelyn being good or bad, does pretty much everyone think we're going to meet Venat at some point to get more perspective on all of this now that Zodiark's unsundered followers are all dead?
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Sep 21, 2020 00:01
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remind me who venat is again?
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Sep 21, 2020 00:12
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Gruckles posted:I wouldn't be surprised if Emet-Selch wasn't completely literal when he claimed to be tempered, and actually meant like Elidibus always nagging him and setting him back on the path whenever his heart wavered. Rather than actually having his will overridden by Zodiark. In one of the crystals you find in that 5.3 quest it pretty much depicts the process as it unfolds changing the will and feelings of the summoner
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Sep 21, 2020 00:13
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Kerrzhe posted:remind me who venat is again? Guy who lead the group summoning Hydaelyn, her heart
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Sep 21, 2020 00:14
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Honestly the big justification for needing to send Hydaelyn off is probably that she's tired. I mean, imagine the incredible abyss of time that Hydaelyn has experienced since her time as Venat. All that time protecting and guiding the sundered worlds has no doubt left its mark.
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Sep 21, 2020 00:45
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Zodiark is a being created to protect the world as it was, while Hydaelyn is a weapon created to kill Zodiark.
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Sep 21, 2020 01:38
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Hogama posted:Heck, it always affects the Scions, too. I hope Riol gets to report in okay... He’s in the rising stones at the end of the patch, he’s by the door and is talking about trying to confirm troubling intel.
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Sep 21, 2020 01:39
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thetoughestbean posted:Guy who lead the group summoning Hydaelyn, her heart where did his name pop up because i am drawing only blanks on that name
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Sep 21, 2020 01:58
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Only appearance so far is the cutscene after Anemnesis Anyder.
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Sep 21, 2020 02:00
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Hydaelyn's probably going to want to fight us simply because she's the most powerful being on the planet (remember that she punked Zodiark), and she wants to make sure the mortals seeking to replace her will be capable of doing her job and keeping the world safe. Like, there's plenty of reasons for a boss-fight against Hydaelyn even if she remains a wholly benevolent, trustworthy being. As Ramuh and Alexander can attest, it wouldn't be the first time we've fought and killed a nice primal.
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Sep 21, 2020 02:42
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There is even FF precedent for this (that scene with Yuna's aeons....  )
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Sep 21, 2020 02:49
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hear me out... Zodilyn
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Sep 21, 2020 02:57
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I'm looking at this album of FFXIV environments from non-standard angles (https://imgur.com/a/jlP0PP1) and I was wondering if someone could explain again to me the Ivalice plot because I remember the end but all the stuff before that kind of runs together. I think it goes like this: Rabanastre: We meet the troupe on the Prima Vista and go to Rabanastre to try and find Lesalia (we do). Rabanastre was totally destroyed by the Empire (very recently?) so we fight looters, looters possessed by auracite??? (Hashmal and Mateus), and some ancient guardians of Lesalia or whatever. At the end Ramza gets possessed by the auracite and turns into an rear end in a top hat. Ridorana Cataract: I do not remember at all why we go here. We kill Yiazmat at the end, which is one of Ashe's guards transformed by the auracite due to his guilt over allowing her to be killed by the imperials. Orbonne Monastery: We meet Fran and she tells us to go here for reasons. While there we fight various allies of the old Ramza who have been possessed by the auracite, and then fight Ultima and seal her away again so she can't destroy the world. I'm realizing I missed most of this plot in the long cutscenes.
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Sep 21, 2020 03:23
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I don't think fighting Hydaelyn is in the cards, even if it turns out that she does die. As presented so far, she's working off the last dregs of her power, in fact before we fed her back the crystals of light she made the original Warriors of Darkness she was incapable of deliberately talking to anyone anymore, even after she made Minfillia her mouthpiece to get around that. As presented a fight against her would be like... kicking someone who's on life support.
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Sep 21, 2020 03:55
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Badger of Basra posted:Rabanastre: We meet the troupe on the Prima Vista and go to Rabanastre to try and find Lesalia (we do). Rabanastre was totally destroyed by the Empire (very recently?) so we fight looters, looters possessed by auracite??? (Hashmal and Mateus), and some ancient guardians of Lesalia or whatever. At the end Ramza gets possessed by the auracite and turns into an rear end in a top hat. Part 1: Fan Fiction playwright wants to do some research on the Zodiac Brave Story and contracts a moogle and a cat reporter to help out, who manage to secure the aid of Literally The Strongest Person On This Or Any World. The old dude gets kidnapped and taken to Rabanastre, which is also where the ruins of Lesalia is rumored to be hidden-- under the city, in the labyrinthine waterways-- where they can do research or whatever. The Empire hosed the place up during the uprising recently (it's an Imperial Province) so it's already in ruins. When you show up, you're met by various totema like Mateus. You kill them, enter the waterways and stumble upon the ruins of Lesalia. There, you see Argath from FFT (or like a ghost or someone similar looking) turn into a stronk demon with the auracite. You kill him, do a standoff with the Bangaa, get the old guy back. The auracite, which the Bangaa thinks is just a normal rear end treasure, gets taken by the Bangaa who gets hosed up by it, goes crazy-- he's sympathetic to the cause of the rebellion and was given a necklace a while back to be delivered by the thief Bangaa to Princess Ashe. You head back to their airship without the auracite. Part 2: This wack-rear end crystal rock that hosed that dude up won't gently caress me up! The hosed up Bangaa heads to the Ridorana Lighthouse and you go too, to get that auracite. The thieving Bangaa's brother and crew tip you off and accompanies you because he's worried about him. As a real tomb raider, you break into a centuries old place where ships get destroyed and nobody returns from. The place is revealed to be a hyper-advanced technological ruins. As such, there's robots to slay. You slay the robots, and the Totema guarding the ruins. Then, on top of it all, there's a really pretty city-looking area where you find the Bangaa: the clockwork city of Goug (think, like, the residential area; you went through the factory district first). While there, the auracite turns the Bangaa into Yiazmat who you slay. You claim the auracite, and the necklace the Bangaa had-- the other side of Ramza's mother's necklace cut from a single auracite- falls to the ground. Ramza touches it and gets knocked out. You go home. Part 3: Friendship with Ramza Ended, Now Ramza Is My Best Friend The Zodiac Brave Story, the real meat of this whole ally raid set, is revealed. Basically, it's similar to FFT: Ramza et al, during a war, saves the world by fighting an un-named world-ending enemy (Ultima) while his bro, Delita, goes on to be a cool and good king; in this story they're friends not adversaries. With slight modification from the FFT story, Delita ends up essentially being told to go off and do his own thing as a big name in Ivalician history because Ramza is going to seal himself and his friends up to fight/restrain Ultima forever as sacrifices-- he (they?) have the blessing or whatever-- arguably this is a more touching separation of the two friends since they never really reconcile in FFT. Ramza, basically being the player character as Hydaelyn's Chosen but a thousand years earlier, is unable to actually defeat Ultima but is able to seal her away with his Blessing or whatever the gently caress-- he doesn't use the Auracite but maybe his friends do. Instead of dying, or winning the fight, he and his friends have been sealed up inside the Orbonne Monastery for centuries as ghost wardens or whatever. New Ramza, the not-very-cash-money Ramza, wakes up corrupted by the rejoined auracite of his mom's necklace and the bangaa's necklace. He seems cool and kind, which is atypical because he is an rear end in a top hat. Only the moogle thinks he's corrupted until he opens a portal to Orbonne Monastery and kidnaps Alma, looking to open up the Monastery to free Ultima. Fran says 'what up' revealing the Viera character model and, under advisement of 'the princess' who is running the Ivalician rebellion, joins you in teleporting to the Orbonne Monastery which has been lost in the forests of Ivalice. When you show up, you're attacked by Agrias, Mustadio, and TG Cid, Old Ramza's companions who have been .. uh.. changed while acting as jailers/wardens of Ultima. You defeat them, proving yourself worthy, and go into the heart of the Monastery where Ultima is. During the fight, Ramza reveals himself and, with the anime power of friendship, does a really cool phase change to save you from Ultima. When you defeat Ultima, once and for all, Ramza and his friends are free to die and you see their ghosts smile at you before, presumably, going off to the farplane/lifestream/whatever the gently caress, thankful to be free of their terrible burden of being good guys in an anime game. Back home, the theatre company puts on the play, having finally learned the complete and true Zodiac Brave Story. New Ramza is slightly more gracious and deserving of his namesake and puts on a great show or whatever. They tour the.. world?.. putting on the play to teach everyone of the unsung heroes who saved the world. More importantly, you get the Ramza/Alma hairstyles and a lot of FFT/FF12 orchestrions/glamours. jokes fucked around with this message at 05:06 on Sep 21, 2020 |
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Sep 21, 2020 04:55
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Also Shiva Eden version gave us our Hydaelyn fight already.
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Sep 21, 2020 04:57
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Eopia posted:I don't think fighting Hydaelyn is in the cards, even if it turns out that she does die. As presented so far, she's working off the last dregs of her power, in fact before we fed her back the crystals of light she made the original Warriors of Darkness she was incapable of deliberately talking to anyone anymore, even after she made Minfillia her mouthpiece to get around that. As presented a fight against her would be like... kicking someone who's on life support. Maybe she's not a threat in any way until Zodiark's gone, at which point she's the only one soaking up all the aether. We've had the idea that losing balance is a bad thing pushed pretty hard at this point. Alternately, though I don't think this is happening, it would be pretty funny if the primal Zenos ends up hijacking is actually Hydaelyn instead of Zodiark, and we're the ones who end up having to rouse Zodiark. Honestly I think the only real evidence we have of Hydaelyn being benevolent at this point is Answers. Sending Minfilia to save the First may have looked altruistic at the time, but everything she's done so far has just been thwarting Ascian plots, which the enemy of Zodiark would be expected to do. Dr Kool-AIDS fucked around with this message at 05:07 on Sep 21, 2020 |
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Sep 21, 2020 04:58
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I don't think Hydaelyn is secretly evil, but I don't think she's omnibenevolent either. She's just a primal that was created to stop Zodiark and his minions so that's what she does.
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Sep 21, 2020 05:08
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Sinteres posted:Maybe she's not a threat in any way until Zodiark's gone, at which point she's the only one soaking up all the aether. That's. Not. How. Hydaelyn. Works.
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Sep 21, 2020 05:22
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If memory serves, Hydaelyn retreated to the Aetherial Sea specifically to avoid draining aether from the planet like all the other primals. I don't know if Zodiark has a similar deal up in the moon or not.
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Sep 21, 2020 05:27
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Dragon Dad specifically tells the WoL in like, 2.5 (4?) ish that Hydaelyn is running dangerously low on aether and that's why he shot you through the face and took away your Blessing of Light, because Hydaelyn was killing herself protecting you against stuff like Ultima, and because he thinks Crystal Mom is helicoptering you.
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Sep 21, 2020 05:36
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NachtSieger posted:Dragon Dad specifically tells the WoL in like, 2.5 (4?) ish that Hydaelyn is running dangerously low on aether and that's why he shot you through the face and took away your Blessing of Light, because Hydaelyn was killing herself protecting you against stuff like Ultima, and because he thinks Crystal Mom is helicoptering you. Typical Dad poo poo, lol. When he lets you gently caress up and, only when it's absolutely necessary, he steps in (Omega cutscene). Dragon Dad is awesome.
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Sep 21, 2020 05:39
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Onmi posted:That's. Not. How. Hydaelyn. Works. It's not how we think Hydaelyn works. There's a very big difference between 'we know it doesn't work like that' and 'we don't know it works like that', and 'Hydaelyn drains aether' is firmly in the latter. Which is important, because it could very easily be true and just never really addressed or considered by the story until now.
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Sep 21, 2020 05:55
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jokes posted:Typical Dad poo poo, lol. When he lets you gently caress up and, only when it's absolutely necessary, he steps in (Omega cutscene). Dragon Dad is awesome. Come back soon
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Sep 21, 2020 06:59
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imo the mostly likely scenario is that we pilot hydaelyn like a fuckin' mech suit or w/e against zodiark!zenos and both are completely destroyed in the process. no more benevolent god protecting the world, just us. (20% chance this is flipped and for some reason we are piloting zodiark against zenos!hydaelyn. this would require venat to come into play) even odds if zodiark and/or hydy show up in a form other than 'big crystal'. if they do, humanoid forms reminiscent of e8 shiva, obv. solid 80% chance by the end of this we are neither the warrior of light or the warrior of darkness, but instead ''the warrior of dawn''
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Sep 21, 2020 07:00
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In the end, our title is just The Warrior and all other jobs are removed from the game.
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Sep 21, 2020 07:33
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They do a stat squish and prune all skills to bring back fracture for all classes.
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Sep 21, 2020 07:34
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SirSamVimes posted:In the end, our title is just The Warrior and all other jobs are removed from the game. We already have a bitch soul Warrior, so that we never have to touch that class ever again.
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Sep 21, 2020 08:46
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