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Its totes prime lib poo poo. Insanely succ lib, fairly maga chud boomer, and p. grifter neolib as well.
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Sep 21, 2020 05:24
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Yeah I agree with veganism being pb moralism. An enforced semi-universal veganism would be weird moral absolutism (not about living sustainably, but about a sort of non-interference with animal life). While individual choice to not use animals for production is fine, it's not political and presenting it as political is just individualist ideology. The resource constraints are a cover story for vegans to inject themselves into the climate change debate, they aren't really about that. I wonder if it's possible to satisfy them by watching over the real resource constraints and stopping the torture of animals in production, or if for them it's like how you can't solve slavery by treating the slaves better.
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Sep 21, 2020 05:46
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Wheeee posted:there are plenty of decent logistical arguments in favor of people adopting a more plant-focused diet, but veganism is an empty liberal ideology that comes in the form of an eating disorder and is only possible on the scale it presently enjoys due to energy-intensive modern transport and farming technology i blame the evangelical mindset that even people who reject it superficially were raised with and which dominates american culture, even in nominally secular forms such as grand narrative and telelogical progressivism vegetarianism and veganism are fine and even good as both approaches to creating a healthy diet in an environment generally hostile to the very notion, and as ethical commitments to abstain from particular forms of cruelty to the best of one's ability. the later is a motive for the practice which predates modernity and possibly even history and will be relevant even in a utopian society, albeit hopefully easier to practice and more widespread. on a global scale, to my recollection veganism is an ideal and perhaps even a commandment for many buddhists and jains, but exceptions for need are explicit when you are not ignoring that you are advising an audience which potentially includes members who face starvation or subsist through hunting. libs, of course, have to cosplay as missionaries just to make a personal commitment to not be awful in some way.
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Sep 21, 2020 06:34
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lol the libs built the death camps and got them stocked and staffed with mengeles and now they're pretending they're sad that the republicans got the genocide started in earnest lololololdldsjfslkfhjdkls sorry just having a moment, but this thead will no doubt understand
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Sep 21, 2020 06:43
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Hodgepodge posted:on a global scale, to my recollection veganism is an ideal and perhaps even a commandment for many buddhists and jains vegetarianism, not veganism, those groups do consume animal products if not actual meat; it's a small but important distinction there has never been a vegan society because humans can't naturally survive on a truly vegan diet and prior to modern industrial agriculture you couldn't effectively farm crops without animals being part of the system, tho of course it's perfectly possible to these days with supplementation and access to the entire planet's food supplies via modern transport infrastructure on a long enough timeline the meat industry will go extinct either way as it's only a matter of time until lab-grown meat is both more efficient and more consistent quality than natural meat
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Sep 21, 2020 07:00
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https://twitter.com/ComradeBogdanov/status/1307845307066134528
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Sep 21, 2020 07:06
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Me about drop my "Stalin is just another white guy silencing the voices of POC's like Trotsky" take 
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Sep 21, 2020 09:14
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Wheeee posted:in a long enough timeline the meat industry will go extinct either way as it's only a matter of time until lab-grown meat is both more efficient and more consistent quality than natural meat read the bible story and realize that there were people who understood that this is not the case before the concept of 0 was understood as a mathematical concept it's a dumb distillation of liberalism that thinks the solution is technology and capitalism. people will likely continue to eat meat products. what will that look like? who the gently caress knows right now, socialism isn't working backwards from an arbitrary choice of moral standard and then explaining why nothing can ever be better. nor is it assuming that technology will replace nature with a product that capitalism will force us to accept and wondering why people are so eager to embrace irrational distortions of science. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 10:03 on Sep 21, 2020 |
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Sep 21, 2020 09:56
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Will people still eat meat? Obviously. Will people keep eating meat to the extent that the average American does? Abso-loving-lutely not.
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Sep 21, 2020 10:17
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every time its come up in conversations or discussions people I know assume lab meat will be disgusting or at best tofu-like, i have the impression it won't be embraced without a very strong educational and propaganda push that includes finding a term for it with less priming baggage than "lab meat"
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Sep 21, 2020 10:25
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CYBEReris posted:every time its come up in conversations or discussions people I know assume lab meat will be disgusting or at best tofu-like, i have the impression it won't be embraced without a very strong educational and propaganda push that includes finding a term for it with less priming baggage than "lab meat" the result of this would be people not trusting educational propaganda pushes especially if, say, it turns out that the growth process creates new and exciting prion diseases and this doesn't become clear immediately (which capital sure as hell will ensure if there's money to be made) if people are open to the idea of replacing a large portion of their diet with a non-meat product, tofu is only expensive because the market in the west is whatever is left of middle income. people from elsewhere already understand that you can raise chickens in the suburbs and you have eggs and occasionally a chicken dinner. it's catching on in the lefty rural-suburb areas around here. kids love baby chickens. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 10:46 on Sep 21, 2020 |
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Sep 21, 2020 10:39
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CYBEReris posted:every time its come up in conversations or discussions people I know assume lab meat will be disgusting or at best tofu-like, i have the impression it won't be embraced without a very strong educational and propaganda push that includes finding a term for it with less priming baggage than "lab meat" "pure meat"
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Sep 21, 2020 10:46
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vaccines, which are literally magic that makes massive death plagues go away, aren't even something people will accept. and lol, now they're right because rushing a vaccine as a solution is probably going to kill people and has already hosed some volunteers up for life. and you think you can brand away lab meat. understand, it isn't them that's dumb here. unfortunately, the layers of capitalism we're all on here cannot be quantified. each one we remove makes us just smart enough to see that there's more even stupid underneath that we don't know how to deal with than we had previously thought. and it gets worse. the dumbness is adaptive. e: it's like there's as bunch of tech trees where you learn how to be dumb and some of them also teach some useful stuff and then there's the lovecraft tree that's really just the marxism tree. there you learn that all the dumb poo poo is horrific and wrong and this actively makes living in a society built on it harder in some ways and it still doesn't make picking it all out of your head possible. which is literally what happened to lovecraft lol. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 11:01 on Sep 21, 2020 |
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Sep 21, 2020 10:50
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Veganism with the occasional fishy treat is coming one way or another, the trophic levels involved mean it's always going to be more efficient to get energy from plants. Every calorie that goes to an animal existing/suffering is a waste. Even with lab meat you're still losing all the energy that goes into it making more meat. We already have the ability to live entirely off plants despite the smallbrained belief to the contrary, but aquaphonics will also supply a regular supply of fish. Honeys probably in, eggs in small local supply, and beef now only a ramen flavor. How well will normal industrial farming do when there's no water, dust soil, and no more fossil fuel fertilizers. We need to start doing food like a great big spaceship, all stable artifical ecosystems and super efficient growing. Combined with more farmed insects, worms, and mushrooms, as well as getting serious about composting. (the real big move to do would be figuring out farming algae on the open seas, or my preferred energy production method, seastead nuclear plants cracking hydrogen in the middle of the ocean)
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Sep 21, 2020 11:28
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ok but hear me out: plants that grow chicken breasts
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Sep 21, 2020 11:30
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T-man posted:Veganism with the occasional fishy treat is coming one way or another, the trophic levels involved mean it's always going to be more efficient to get energy from plants. Every calorie that goes to an animal existing/suffering is a waste. Even with lab meat you're still losing all the energy that goes into it making more meat. We already have the ability to live entirely off plants despite the smallbrained belief to the contrary, but aquaphonics will also supply a regular supply of fish. Honeys probably in, eggs in small local supply, and beef now only a ramen flavor. yea but we could oppress 99 percent of the world population instead and have beef until everything dies soon so what's the good option here
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Sep 21, 2020 11:41
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quote:We need to start doing food like a great big spaceship, all stable artifical ecosystems and super efficient growing. we tried that poo poo a few times. everything in the artificial system died. yeah we need a new approach, but this is one time when transhumanism tends to go badly astray. thinking like an engineering nerd who thinks science as practiced by an academic system designed for to produce resource extractors for capital will kill us. remember the scientist guy in dune? he was based on a real scientist. people like him are shut out of the conversation completely in favour of elon musk level science fiction. even environmentalism is dominated by people whose understanding is (or only communicated as) enough to tell us that what we're doing is loving us up.
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Sep 21, 2020 11:48
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CYBEReris posted:ok but hear me out: plants that grow chicken breasts some of the early reports of north america called cotton the "vegetable lamb" because it was basically wool growing on trees and that wasn't a thing in europe proper mad science merely takes nature to the next step...
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Sep 21, 2020 11:52
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetable_Lamb_of_Tartary
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Sep 21, 2020 12:55
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More seriously, there will never be large scale adaption of veganism for as long as milk is cheaper then soymilk. If you want to improve adaption of veganism under capitalism, you need to lobby for something like the german anti alcohol law from a decade ago, which legislated that the cheapest drink on restaurant menus has to be non-alcoholic. We are pretty much already at the limit of what can pure consumer behaviour can change.
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Sep 21, 2020 13:07
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https://twitter.com/roun_sa_ville/status/1307872786673786880?s=19
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Sep 21, 2020 13:26
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VictualSquid posted:More seriously, there will never be large scale adaption of veganism for as long as milk is cheaper then soymilk. this is interesting and way different from the UK approach of a flat tax on ethanol, which had the effect of just making the boozehound drinks significantly more expensive and the alcohol for rich people barely nudged a few percent
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Sep 21, 2020 13:32
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it's eternally funny that guys effortlessly switch from yelling about tankies to calling for military intervention on unfriendly governments
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Sep 21, 2020 13:51
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StashAugustine posted:it's eternally funny that guys effortlessly switch from yelling about tankies to calling for military intervention on unfriendly governments I suspect that in this guy's estimation, Bernie Sanders, AOC, and what not are all "tankies".
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Sep 21, 2020 14:08
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ah, had the details wrong but the basic idea right the picture of a lamb growing from a plant is pretty on key
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Sep 21, 2020 14:09
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CYBEReris posted:ok but hear me out: plants that grow chicken breasts watch as I upset the very balance of Creation
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Sep 21, 2020 14:18
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Wheeee posted:there are plenty of decent logistical arguments in favor of people adopting a more plant-focused diet, but veganism is an empty liberal ideology that comes in the form of an eating disorder and is only possible on the scale it presently enjoys due to energy-intensive modern transport and farming technology I think this is a good stance. We should be suspicious of programs that push moral purity or whatever. I would encourage people to reduce their meat consumption, but that's not the most important thing. And in terms of the environment, it's probably easier to get more people to have a less animal products diet than a none. Also only freaks don't eat honey/wear wool.
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Sep 21, 2020 15:35
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PERPETUAL IDIOT posted:I suspect that in this guy's estimation, Bernie Sanders, AOC, and what not are all "tankies". yea I was about to say. if you write 'proud neoliberal' in your own description you are pretty much gone
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Sep 21, 2020 16:38
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also this whole discussion is quite literally discussing the menu at the socialist bistro and not actually any kind of useful political talk
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Sep 21, 2020 16:48
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The 70s turn to dismantle Northern welfare states and supplant the developmental states in the Global South with IMF-administered structural adjustment policies....it’s good to me and it defines my political identity
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Sep 21, 2020 16:49
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i think its mean to kill the nice moo moos
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Sep 21, 2020 16:49
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Larry Parrish posted:also this whole discussion is quite literally discussing the menu at the socialist bistro and not actually any kind of useful political talk https://twitter.com/ajplus/status/1307197732784934913
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Sep 21, 2020 16:49
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*eating my assata cuban sandwich* Mmmm smoked ham, roasted pork
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Sep 21, 2020 17:03
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very disappointing to see supposed communists discuss individual consumption choices for pages. we can decide how much meat non-indigenous people get to eat after we control the production of it.
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Sep 21, 2020 17:22
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that's a really good name for a bakery lol
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Sep 21, 2020 17:28
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Doc Hawkins posted:very disappointing to see supposed communists discuss individual consumption choices for pages. we can decide how much meat non-indigenous people get to eat after we control the production of it. Does "wait until after the revolution to worry about it" extend to all individual choices that we can make to help the environment? I'll stop rolling coal after the revolution? Let's wait to hear what my soviet has to say about running my house's raw sewage into the river?
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Sep 21, 2020 18:01
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PERPETUAL IDIOT posted:Does "wait until after the revolution to worry about it" extend to all individual choices that we can make to help the environment? I'll stop rolling coal after the revolution? Let's wait to hear what my soviet has to say about running my house's raw sewage into the river? Well, I have stopped all my direct personal consumption of coal and now only use coal if it is filtered through abstract corporate systems. I do not see how going vegan would make a significantly larger impact then that.
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Sep 21, 2020 18:10
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VictualSquid posted:Well, I have stopped all my direct personal consumption of coal and now only use coal if it is filtered through abstract corporate systems. I do not see how going vegan would make a significantly larger impact then that. That's great! It probably does have a larger impact, at least on climate change. My question is more for the people like who I quoted, who seem to think that because any individual action is insufficient, that it shouldn't be considered.
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Sep 21, 2020 18:14
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PERPETUAL IDIOT posted:That's great! It probably does have a larger impact, at least on climate change. My question is more for the people like who I quoted, who seem to think that because any individual action is insufficient, that it shouldn't be considered. And my larger point has been that making it easier for larger society to become vegan is vastly superior then individually deciding to be vegan or telling people to become vegan. And while there are short term things we can do, the only approach with lasting effect it abolishing capitalism.
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Sep 21, 2020 18:31
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Doc Hawkins posted:very disappointing to see supposed communists discuss individual consumption choices for pages. we can decide how much meat non-indigenous people get to eat after we control the production of it. It has been incredibly short sighted and bougie.
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Sep 21, 2020 18:58
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